| EGM on 11:40 - Jul 28 with 3301 views | TalkingSutty |
| EGM on 11:19 - Jul 28 by pioneer |
They already realise they have no long term future at Spotland under the current leadership. They wont be homeless, (just like the trophies and memorabilia they were required to move out of the stadium wasnt left homeless) even if it means a less local home.
The stuff that went on was supported by the Board so I dont think sending another board member to meet with them will make a difference. |
Not good that. Both professional sporting codes requesting assistance together would be a powerful voice and one that RMBC would find difficult to ignore. This sort of approach has never been seriously debated, that's pretty obvious. What is Simon Gauge's ultimate aim, is it to see the club survive and progress maybe in the guise of a community club, alongside Hornets, RMBC etc or is it to recoup the money that they have put into the club, what is their priority? That's a important question and if it's the later then he should be up front about it and everybody should work together to refund the money or most of it. There is money in the stadium and maybe a chance of bringing RMBC on board. I think it needs some honesty and admittance, I'm not sure that we have that |  | |  |
| EGM on 11:50 - Jul 28 with 3259 views | wozzrafc |
| EGM on 11:35 - Jul 28 by D_Alien |
"If the fans have to ask the questions at the forum then we [they?] have already failed."
"...these individuals are doing their best to move forward..."
Those two statements just seem contradictory, and form the crux of the matter. As it stands, should the required financial information be forthcoming before the Forum, it'll already have been dragged out of them, since if they intended to bring it to our attention they'd have indicated they were going to do so
Without it, it's a definite no vote from me
[Post edited 28 Jul 2023 11:39]
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The board need to realise that they are going to have to address that fans need to know the facts and they can’t expect that they will just trust them. The forum is the perfect opportunity for them to appeal to shareholders and back them. If they sit back and fans have to ask them then yes we have already as a club. That’s for the board to address they should lay out the facts not wait for fans to drag it out of them.
About the directors doing their best, I mean since taking over in very difficult circumstances they have tried to do what they thought was best. It has not been enough and the position we are in shows that but we as fans do not know just how big the issues have been. They are not intentionally causing damage but that doesn’t make it right.
I think there’s a widening gulf and things are getting more and more toxic. But doesn’t have to be like that . We need to draw a line clear the air and move forward together and that need both sides to come to the table, but the Board need to drive that and bring the fans along.
[Post edited 28 Jul 2023 11:54]
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| EGM on 12:00 - Jul 28 with 3211 views | D_Alien |
| EGM on 11:50 - Jul 28 by wozzrafc |
The board need to realise that they are going to have to address that fans need to know the facts and they can’t expect that they will just trust them. The forum is the perfect opportunity for them to appeal to shareholders and back them. If they sit back and fans have to ask them then yes we have already as a club. That’s for the board to address they should lay out the facts not wait for fans to drag it out of them.
About the directors doing their best, I mean since taking over in very difficult circumstances they have tried to do what they thought was best. It has not been enough and the position we are in shows that but we as fans do not know just how big the issues have been. They are not intentionally causing damage but that doesn’t make it right.
I think there’s a widening gulf and things are getting more and more toxic. But doesn’t have to be like that . We need to draw a line clear the air and move forward together and that need both sides to come to the table, but the Board need to drive that and bring the fans along.
[Post edited 28 Jul 2023 11:54]
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That's fair enough
if the Forum is going to be used as an opportunity to inform fans regarding the financial circumstances, this needs to be made clear beforehand
But... the problem there is simple: it's a Fans forum not a Shareholders forum. All shareholders should be informed, and written information is much easier to peruse in one's own time rather than having it presented. This is what happened at a Fans Forum just a few years ago, and it paved the way for the actions of the previous board |  |
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| EGM on 12:12 - Jul 28 with 3168 views | 442Dale |
| EGM on 12:00 - Jul 28 by D_Alien |
That's fair enough
if the Forum is going to be used as an opportunity to inform fans regarding the financial circumstances, this needs to be made clear beforehand
But... the problem there is simple: it's a Fans forum not a Shareholders forum. All shareholders should be informed, and written information is much easier to peruse in one's own time rather than having it presented. This is what happened at a Fans Forum just a few years ago, and it paved the way for the actions of the previous board |
It’s all too easy to say something will be looked into…
Fans forums are good and vital as part of (re)engaging with supporters.
Unless stated otherwise,as you say, with a clear defined approach that includes supplying the relevant information to shareholders who are not present, there’s an argument that it isn’t giving the best route to assist supporters as an opportunity to decide which is the appropriate way to vote.
In fact, to claim what would and wouldn’t serve much purpose needs to have evidence to support such a view. Unless it’s merely an opinion. |  |
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| EGM on 12:25 - Jul 28 with 3132 views | blackdogblue |
I have read most of the thread and apologies if I have missed it or no one has mentioned it..
Loosing money at the rate we are every week, I presume it will be a sizeable loan.
Sizeable loans attract a high APR, how are the loan repayments (presume monthly) going to be paid to the lender... Use the capital from the loan?
That will not last long propping the club up / paying back and sooner or later the pot will run dry... What then?? |  |
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| EGM on 12:28 - Jul 28 with 3121 views | judd |
| EGM on 12:25 - Jul 28 by blackdogblue |
I have read most of the thread and apologies if I have missed it or no one has mentioned it..
Loosing money at the rate we are every week, I presume it will be a sizeable loan.
Sizeable loans attract a high APR, how are the loan repayments (presume monthly) going to be paid to the lender... Use the capital from the loan?
That will not last long propping the club up / paying back and sooner or later the pot will run dry... What then?? |
The loans are said to be repayable as one of the following happens:
> an investor takes up the existing shares for sale
> the supporters Trust raise funds via the Community Ownership Fund application
>liquidation |  |
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| EGM on 12:35 - Jul 28 with 3080 views | Crede_Sign0 |
| EGM on 12:28 - Jul 28 by judd |
The loans are said to be repayable as one of the following happens:
> an investor takes up the existing shares for sale
> the supporters Trust raise funds via the Community Ownership Fund application
>liquidation |
Will the community ownership route require us to have an artificial playing surface? | | | |
| EGM on 12:47 - Jul 28 with 3044 views | judd |
| EGM on 12:35 - Jul 28 by Crede_Sign0 |
Will the community ownership route require us to have an artificial playing surface? |
Not that I am aware of. | |
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| EGM on 14:08 - Jul 28 with 2877 views | wozzrafc |
| EGM on 12:00 - Jul 28 by D_Alien |
That's fair enough
if the Forum is going to be used as an opportunity to inform fans regarding the financial circumstances, this needs to be made clear beforehand
But... the problem there is simple: it's a Fans forum not a Shareholders forum. All shareholders should be informed, and written information is much easier to peruse in one's own time rather than having it presented. This is what happened at a Fans Forum just a few years ago, and it paved the way for the actions of the previous board |
Totally agree about shareholders, I’m a share and can’t make the forum for example. But we are we’re we are and if the EGM is going ahead then the forum is probably the best chance we have.
The EGM seems rushed to me. If this vote goes ahead it’s going to be a long night!!! | | | |
| EGM on 14:56 - Jul 28 with 2787 views | sxdale |
As a shareholder, I need to know why we are in the mess we appear to be. From being told that we have a competitive budget when the new BOD took over to now needing an immediate cash injection to survive as a club (or that's what seems to be implied) feels like strong arm tactics from the board to get me to vote for what they want.
What costs have increased? Are they one off increases or will they continue to rise? What cost savings have been made? Can more be made? What happens when the new loan money is spent if an investor can't be found in time, more loans, liquidation, what?
Surely the board must understand this, they aren't stupid people. Information must be supplied in a timely manner.
For what it's worth, I do (or want to) trust the board but I can't vote through something so important on blind faith. Us Dale fans are a savvy bunch trust us with the facts and we can make the right choice.
A fans forum is not the place for this although the trust can provide all necessary information to their members / wider fan base whenever they choose.
Oh, and I have still not received an email from the club. | | | |
| EGM on 15:02 - Jul 28 with 2746 views | 100notout |
| EGM on 14:08 - Jul 28 by wozzrafc |
Totally agree about shareholders, I’m a share and can’t make the forum for example. But we are we’re we are and if the EGM is going ahead then the forum is probably the best chance we have.
The EGM seems rushed to me. If this vote goes ahead it’s going to be a long night!!! |
so there's a fans forum on 3rd August
Proxy votes have to be in by 7th August
EGM is 9th August
Its now approaching cob on 28th July and I (and many other shareholders?) still haven't received an email with relevant papers relating to what I am being asked to approve.
All I / we know is that SG & RK are proposing to provide the club with a loan which will be secured on the ground.
The devil as always is in the detail for which we have none. I'm sure it was well intended but there is a real danger that there won't be 75% of shareholders approving this resolution.
Where the hell will that leave us?
We know the board read this forum, so over to you................ | |
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| EGM on 15:07 - Jul 28 with 2725 views | Porlicks |
Death spiral: noun. informal. a period of continuous deterioration that leads ultimately to catastrophic failure or destruction. |  |
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| EGM on 15:20 - Jul 28 with 2680 views | 442Dale |
For those who are asking, quite fairly, for more information around our current situation, let’s return to the Trust article and the following quite reasonable question:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/07/trust-response-to-egm-announcement/
<<“Q) Why is the EGM not being run in conjunction with an AGM after the Trust were told that there was an expectation to hold it before the start of the season? It would provide shareholders of a better understanding of the reasons behind this move.
This is a single decision EGM that needs an urgent decision.The AGM we want to hold back for now because if an investor is found there may well be significant changes to the board that need voting through and it is a guaranteed opportunity for any new investor to address shareholders.”>>
If, as the Trust question quite rightly states that holding an AGM first “would provide shareholders of a better understanding of the reasons behind this move.”, why, as the biggest shareholder, did the Trust not actually challenge the response?
Were alternative routes looked at to ensure something was in place that “would provide shareholders of a better understanding of the reasons behind this move.”? [Post edited 28 Jul 2023 15:22]
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| EGM on 17:01 - Jul 28 with 2516 views | 49thseason |
There is too much heat and not enough light here. Its clear that the cash runway is shorter than the Board would like, but we do not know the timescales they are working to, its also clear that 2 board members are prepared to lend money, but we don't know how much and for how long and we know that they want to secure their loan against the stadium by removing the clause that prevents them using the ground as collateral. Once that clause has gone, there is a risk that another "investor" will want to secure their loan too. However, what good does it do us to own a ground worth £3m if we are tumbling down the leagues and constantly looking for funds? The ground is an asset like the mini buses or the computers or fridges in the bars, we have to sweat the assets and start the rebuilding, so would we rather have a ground we cannot touch or a ground we can use sensibly to bring money in during a cash squeeze and ultimately pay back to the lenders? Especially when those lenders have already done more financially than anyone since Fred Ratcliffe?
We are in a difficult position, losing money and trying not to hit the panic button, but sooner or later if the outgoings remain greater than the income, the Board will have to call time on the whole enterprise.
And lets not imagine that RMBC is going to ride in to the rescue, They will sit back and hope they can buy the land for housing at some stage. Don't forget they already have a plan to help Hornets have a pitch at Balderstone.
Let the loan go through, meanwhile, the trust has to start its own Gold Bond equivalent, start selling merchandise, Running events, anything to raise money to buy shares which increases its ability to dictate the direction of travel and supports the club financially. Equally the club has to find an investor or buyer. If the current protection of the ground is what is causing the problem then some sort of other solution needs to be found. But it would be ridiculous to go bust with a £3m asset on the books that cannot be leveraged.
Ultimately the problem is not solved by borrowing , it is solved by more fans in the ground and greater activity off the pitch, something which has been allowed to fall off a cliff over recent years. I have suggested several schemes for increasing the off pitch revenue, and I am pleased to see the club trying to attract more events, more sponsors etc. At some point I believe, some of those functions will have to be undertaken by volunteers, the time to ask for help is now, not when its too little and too late to be effective. |  | | |
| EGM on 17:18 - Jul 28 with 2445 views | judd |
| EGM on 17:01 - Jul 28 by 49thseason |
There is too much heat and not enough light here. Its clear that the cash runway is shorter than the Board would like, but we do not know the timescales they are working to, its also clear that 2 board members are prepared to lend money, but we don't know how much and for how long and we know that they want to secure their loan against the stadium by removing the clause that prevents them using the ground as collateral. Once that clause has gone, there is a risk that another "investor" will want to secure their loan too. However, what good does it do us to own a ground worth £3m if we are tumbling down the leagues and constantly looking for funds? The ground is an asset like the mini buses or the computers or fridges in the bars, we have to sweat the assets and start the rebuilding, so would we rather have a ground we cannot touch or a ground we can use sensibly to bring money in during a cash squeeze and ultimately pay back to the lenders? Especially when those lenders have already done more financially than anyone since Fred Ratcliffe?
We are in a difficult position, losing money and trying not to hit the panic button, but sooner or later if the outgoings remain greater than the income, the Board will have to call time on the whole enterprise.
And lets not imagine that RMBC is going to ride in to the rescue, They will sit back and hope they can buy the land for housing at some stage. Don't forget they already have a plan to help Hornets have a pitch at Balderstone.
Let the loan go through, meanwhile, the trust has to start its own Gold Bond equivalent, start selling merchandise, Running events, anything to raise money to buy shares which increases its ability to dictate the direction of travel and supports the club financially. Equally the club has to find an investor or buyer. If the current protection of the ground is what is causing the problem then some sort of other solution needs to be found. But it would be ridiculous to go bust with a £3m asset on the books that cannot be leveraged.
Ultimately the problem is not solved by borrowing , it is solved by more fans in the ground and greater activity off the pitch, something which has been allowed to fall off a cliff over recent years. I have suggested several schemes for increasing the off pitch revenue, and I am pleased to see the club trying to attract more events, more sponsors etc. At some point I believe, some of those functions will have to be undertaken by volunteers, the time to ask for help is now, not when its too little and too late to be effective. |
"Once that clause has gone..."
I am certain that the motion fits in with the clause requirements in that 75% of members in attendance at the EGM support this particular charge, not to remove the clause altogether?
Therefore, any subsequent charge would have to follow the same EGM route for approval.
I also believe no timescales for repayment have been set, just conditions that trigger the repayment as mentioned earlier, which are clearly not going to happen overnight, or even this year, in my opinion. | |
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| EGM on 18:13 - Jul 28 with 2321 views | R17ALE |
| EGM on 17:01 - Jul 28 by 49thseason |
There is too much heat and not enough light here. Its clear that the cash runway is shorter than the Board would like, but we do not know the timescales they are working to, its also clear that 2 board members are prepared to lend money, but we don't know how much and for how long and we know that they want to secure their loan against the stadium by removing the clause that prevents them using the ground as collateral. Once that clause has gone, there is a risk that another "investor" will want to secure their loan too. However, what good does it do us to own a ground worth £3m if we are tumbling down the leagues and constantly looking for funds? The ground is an asset like the mini buses or the computers or fridges in the bars, we have to sweat the assets and start the rebuilding, so would we rather have a ground we cannot touch or a ground we can use sensibly to bring money in during a cash squeeze and ultimately pay back to the lenders? Especially when those lenders have already done more financially than anyone since Fred Ratcliffe?
We are in a difficult position, losing money and trying not to hit the panic button, but sooner or later if the outgoings remain greater than the income, the Board will have to call time on the whole enterprise.
And lets not imagine that RMBC is going to ride in to the rescue, They will sit back and hope they can buy the land for housing at some stage. Don't forget they already have a plan to help Hornets have a pitch at Balderstone.
Let the loan go through, meanwhile, the trust has to start its own Gold Bond equivalent, start selling merchandise, Running events, anything to raise money to buy shares which increases its ability to dictate the direction of travel and supports the club financially. Equally the club has to find an investor or buyer. If the current protection of the ground is what is causing the problem then some sort of other solution needs to be found. But it would be ridiculous to go bust with a £3m asset on the books that cannot be leveraged.
Ultimately the problem is not solved by borrowing , it is solved by more fans in the ground and greater activity off the pitch, something which has been allowed to fall off a cliff over recent years. I have suggested several schemes for increasing the off pitch revenue, and I am pleased to see the club trying to attract more events, more sponsors etc. At some point I believe, some of those functions will have to be undertaken by volunteers, the time to ask for help is now, not when its too little and too late to be effective. |
I agree with most of that, but you have now said a couple of times that the Trust should run a version of Goldbond. Have you any idea how many hours per week are required by x number of people with expert knowledge of the industry to achieve a successful Weekly Draw?
To expect a small group of volunteers to achieve that on a part time basis is extraordinarily naive.
Borrowing is not the answer however. The writing was on the wall ages ago in a Christmas message where the Chairman boasted we employed 138 people. Even on wages of £100 per week, that's nearly £0.75m a year. Draw your own conclusions. |  |
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| EGM on 19:34 - Jul 28 with 2171 views | Edindale |
As a shareholder I have received notice of the EGM. Having followed this thread I am anxious not to pre-judge the motivation of the Directors involved.
However despite the unfortunate timing the club needs immediate short term finance as soon as possible.
Fans need to understand what the investment prospects are like and what other alternatives there may be to taking a charge on the ground as an asset. I appreciate that some information may be commercially confidential but many legitimate questions have been posed which need to be answered.
Both the EGM and Fans Forum are likely to be pivotal to the direction of this coming season. Unfortunately as an Exile I can't attend much as I would like to.
Let's hope that this is not too much of a distraction from pre season preparations as a good start on the pitch will encourage more of a feel good factor. | | | |
| EGM on 19:53 - Jul 28 with 2136 views | 49thseason |
| EGM on 18:13 - Jul 28 by R17ALE |
I agree with most of that, but you have now said a couple of times that the Trust should run a version of Goldbond. Have you any idea how many hours per week are required by x number of people with expert knowledge of the industry to achieve a successful Weekly Draw?
To expect a small group of volunteers to achieve that on a part time basis is extraordinarily naive.
Borrowing is not the answer however. The writing was on the wall ages ago in a Christmas message where the Chairman boasted we employed 138 people. Even on wages of £100 per week, that's nearly £0.75m a year. Draw your own conclusions. |
Reasonable comment R17ALE, the essential difference being the availability of software to do a lot of the back office work, and thats not to say that people couldn't be employed once it was sufficiently established if needed. My point is that oak trees grow from acorns, but if we don't plant some acorns we won't have any trees. If the club can't / won't do these things, who else will? | | | |
| EGM on 20:04 - Jul 28 with 2103 views | 442Dale |
| EGM on 19:53 - Jul 28 by 49thseason |
Reasonable comment R17ALE, the essential difference being the availability of software to do a lot of the back office work, and thats not to say that people couldn't be employed once it was sufficiently established if needed. My point is that oak trees grow from acorns, but if we don't plant some acorns we won't have any trees. If the club can't / won't do these things, who else will? |
Might be worth contacting the Trust directly, they’re open to people joining their board - maybe it’s something you could look into initially for them. From there other fans can get involved in or possibly there are alternative options? | |
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| EGM on 20:17 - Jul 28 with 2079 views | TVOS1907 |
| EGM on 19:53 - Jul 28 by 49thseason |
Reasonable comment R17ALE, the essential difference being the availability of software to do a lot of the back office work, and thats not to say that people couldn't be employed once it was sufficiently established if needed. My point is that oak trees grow from acorns, but if we don't plant some acorns we won't have any trees. If the club can't / won't do these things, who else will? |
I think you've mentioned before that you're retired, so perhaps it might be an idea to contact the Trust to see how you can get involved in implementing some of your ideas, as I'm sure the committee, who all have full-time jobs, would appreciate some help and support. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| EGM on 20:51 - Jul 28 with 2002 views | jth |
It is a very interesting situation indeed and there have been some excellent points in this thread. Here are a few thoughts to add.
- more details are needed on what the nature of the loan is.What is the exact amount? Is it a term loan or revolving credit facility? And of course, what is the price of the loan.
- What is the loan used for? Is it to finance capital expenditure (probably not)? We are one week from the start of the season. If this is related to working capital items, is our financial situation really so dire that we can't wait for matchday revenue? What is the urgency of the situation?
- What is the actual cash position? Are we out of other options? Has the club contacted banks and concluded that a short term bank financing is not an option?
- What are the loan terms? i.e what are the payment terms and payment schedule like?
- A loan like this would lead to a situation where managements' personal finances are very much connected with the club. A very careful consideration is needed before going there.
This is a bare minimum amount of required information, without which no shareholder can form a proper opinion of the loan. Furthermore, having an option to join the fan forum and especially the EGM remotely is very necessary. | | | |
| EGM on 21:19 - Jul 28 with 1945 views | EllDale |
I’m not sure that there will be too much immediate match day revenue.
If you reckon that there are a couple of thousand home fans but 1800 of those are season ticket holders.
If the team make a good start then a few more may be persuaded to come through the turnstiles but it may take a couple of months for that to become apparent.
Catering is franchised out and hospitality and bar net takings won’t keep the club afloat. | | | |
| EGM on 21:30 - Jul 28 with 1920 views | DevonDale |
I’ve been through the whole of this thread, and here are my thoughts.
We all know that the club has had ongoing financial issues for some time, certainly not helped by on and off pitch matters over the past couple of years. I applaud anyone who is prepared to dig deep into their own resources/savings to assist with cashflow (specifically the two board members who have committed to provide finance to that club), and if I were in their position and assuming it is a big financial commitment to them personally I also would be seeking security for that loan. This is a wholly normal and sensible way to do these things.
HOWEVER what I do strongly object to is the way, yet again, this matter has been brought to the Owners (shareholders) attention for their consideration and approval. Whether the board like it or not, this club is fan owned with a diverse shareholder base. The giving of the security is a major financial commitment and obligation and the shareholders expect and deserve sufficient information on which to base such a decision. The official communication by the club to shareholders is pitiful in its lack of information on the matter in hand. This was obviously picked up on by the board with the subsequent statements published on the website, but that was a public communication with nothing included of any real substance.
What should have been provided is a business case setting out the current financial position of the club, details of the financial forecasts for the next (say) 6 months (I would hope such a financial discipline is in place), an update on the search for external investment, together with details of the proposed finance to be provided and the attached terms. This could be reviewed and considered ahead of the EGM, could be suitably scrutinised and challenged at the EGM, and voted on accordingly.
As an exiled supporter/shareholder I cannot attend the EGM, and we have not been given the facility to attend the meeting virtually. It may well be that more substantive information is forthcoming at that meeting, but that is of little use to me who will have to submit my proxy vote 48 hours beforehand. Based on what I have to hand (virtually nothing) my vote will be against the proposal. | | | |
| EGM on 21:42 - Jul 28 with 1891 views | D_Alien |
Might i enquire - the provision for 75% of the vote required to use the stadium as security for the loan... is it:
75% of the total shares held by those who cast a vote
75% of the total number of shareholders
75% of those who vote at the EGM (in person or by proxy)
Some other variation of the above
Thanks | |
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| EGM on 22:10 - Jul 28 with 1830 views | judd |
| EGM on 21:42 - Jul 28 by D_Alien |
Might i enquire - the provision for 75% of the vote required to use the stadium as security for the loan... is it:
75% of the total shares held by those who cast a vote
75% of the total number of shareholders
75% of those who vote at the EGM (in person or by proxy)
Some other variation of the above
Thanks |
75% on the night. Poll vote not been employed so far. | |
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