| Picton Monument in Carmarthen 18:18 - Dec 21 with 9652 views | britferry |
Well done to the people of Carmarthen
Monument to Waterloo hero will STAND: Memorial to slaver Thomas Picton who died in 1815 battle will not be removed or renamed after majority of locals vote to keep it amid BLM row
I didn't realise that he is the only Welshman buried in St Paul's Cathedral
More guts than those wishy-washy yellow bellied scummers
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9075579/Black-Lives-Matter-Monument-Wat |  |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:04 - Dec 22 with 1022 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:57 - Dec 22 by FieryJack |
Did he?
Has he got a statue? |
Sort of...
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| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:12 - Dec 22 with 1010 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:57 - Dec 22 by FieryJack |
Did he?
Has he got a statue? |
Of course he has.
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:13 - Dec 22 with 1007 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 16:15 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, monstrous was my word. Repugnant was the word used at the time.
Actually to say they overturned it, though technically accurate, doesn’t really give the story.
Torture wasn’t acceptable at the time in England, it was allowed under Spanish law which Picton argued should be applied. The jury accepted that on appeal, but recommended that he instead be tried on a different charge saying that he knew it what he did was repugnant in England and that he must have known that it was unacceptable for him to do what he did irrespective of the Spanish law.
This was, incidentally, in addition to him being tried by Privy Council of charges of excessive cruelty, summary execution without following due process and severity in his treatment of slaves. Again, his arguments were technicalities about whether such things were allowed rather than refuting them.
I don’t imagine the general public knew anything at all about his conduct. Not that it’s much of a barometer. A cursory glance at the internet would demonstrate the horror of his conduct and the people of Carmarthen don’t appear to give too much of a sh*t about it. |
I'm sure the vast majority of the current residents of Carmarthen and beyond (unlike it would appear some on here ) are not into self flagellation , wailing and moaning about an deed that was committed over two hundred years ago. The legal system since its inception has has a history of "technicalities" overriding justice , how many trials since have been thrown out due to a system which like all others have ways and means of bypassing the law of the land. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:21 - Dec 22 with 997 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:12 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Of course he has.
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Now you've done it, I'm sure the sharpened pitchforks and fire brands are being are being readied as I post this | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:23 - Dec 22 with 997 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:21 - Dec 22 by Boundy |
Now you've done it, I'm sure the sharpened pitchforks and fire brands are being are being readied as I post this |
They’ve captured his flamboyance and campiness quite well but I don’t think he’d appreciate the bird shit dribbling down his forehead. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:07 - Dec 22 with 970 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:23 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
They’ve captured his flamboyance and campiness quite well but I don’t think he’d appreciate the bird shit dribbling down his forehead. |
I could respond with a crude comment but the man deserves better than that | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:20 - Dec 22 with 967 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:01 - Dec 22 by Catullus |
A cursory glance at the internet? Well that would be modern people applying their values then, not how people of his own time judged him.
Back in the 1800's (well until 1857) transportation was still carried out for stealing and you didn't have to do much,
https://www.19crimes.com/the-19-crimes
Besides which, repugnant is hardly close to monstrous. Picton was only tried on one charge, of unlawfully inflciting torture to extract a confession and when you say she was made to stand on a spike, but wasn't it to stand on a flat headed wooden peg for one hour, Vlad the impaler it is not, very painful yes but surely not as bad as a flogging?
A flogging, if they used the cat o 9 tails, would have ripped her back to shreds, it broke people and it was often a cause of death if infection set in. Picketing seems tame to me, by comparison.
https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/4adfdd41-6370-36bf-a907-c74f5ad7d |
I’m talking about the online poll. They obviously have enough internet to vote.
People of his own time found his behaviour so abhorrent that they demanded he be removed from his post. He was an absolute monster. His war record is as relevant as the charity work of Jimmy Savile. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:22 - Dec 22 with 965 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 18:43 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Morecambe and Wise made a misogynistic joke about a mother in law in their 1967 Christmas special so they should be torn down too. |
Sorry. Are you genuinely comparing the abuse of a child, widespread torture and abuse of slaves and the imposition of execution without any due process to mother-in-law jokes or are you attempting to be ‘hilarious’?
Dear God you’re stupid. | | | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:27 - Dec 22 with 957 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 19:13 - Dec 22 by Boundy |
I'm sure the vast majority of the current residents of Carmarthen and beyond (unlike it would appear some on here ) are not into self flagellation , wailing and moaning about an deed that was committed over two hundred years ago. The legal system since its inception has has a history of "technicalities" overriding justice , how many trials since have been thrown out due to a system which like all others have ways and means of bypassing the law of the land. |
There is no self flagellation, moaning and wailing.
I just don’t believe that we should celebrate such people.
What do you think the right amount of time is before you can start erecting statues to psychopaths and child abusers? 20 years? 50?
Does the passage of time always render atrocities irrelevant? Or only when victims are far away?
The vast majority of residents couldn’t tell you anything whatsoever about him I imagine. They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:34 - Dec 22 with 955 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:27 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
There is no self flagellation, moaning and wailing.
I just don’t believe that we should celebrate such people.
What do you think the right amount of time is before you can start erecting statues to psychopaths and child abusers? 20 years? 50?
Does the passage of time always render atrocities irrelevant? Or only when victims are far away?
The vast majority of residents couldn’t tell you anything whatsoever about him I imagine. They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement. |
” They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement.”
I’ll go with wanting to honour the memory of a brave, brave man. His desperate bayonet charge into the flank of D’erlon’s Corps at Waterloo turned the tide. The whole of Europe is in his debt not just the people of Carmarthen. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:36 - Dec 22 with 951 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:27 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
There is no self flagellation, moaning and wailing.
I just don’t believe that we should celebrate such people.
What do you think the right amount of time is before you can start erecting statues to psychopaths and child abusers? 20 years? 50?
Does the passage of time always render atrocities irrelevant? Or only when victims are far away?
The vast majority of residents couldn’t tell you anything whatsoever about him I imagine. They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement. |
That’s a good enough reason as any to vote for it. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:43 - Dec 22 with 937 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:20 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
I’m talking about the online poll. They obviously have enough internet to vote.
People of his own time found his behaviour so abhorrent that they demanded he be removed from his post. He was an absolute monster. His war record is as relevant as the charity work of Jimmy Savile. |
You appear to be all over the place and frankly slightly hysterical " He was an absolute monster". Now you're referring to his war record, could it be that too many johnny foreigners were killed for your liking , I hate to break this to you but war can be a nasty way of resolving arguments between nations . By trying to compare a man to that odious scum bag Saville shows you really are struggling now to present a reasoned argument as to why the good people of Carmarthen ( yes even in west wales we have the internet ) who voted for his monument to remain are so wrong and you're right. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:52 - Dec 22 with 926 views | Highjack |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:22 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Sorry. Are you genuinely comparing the abuse of a child, widespread torture and abuse of slaves and the imposition of execution without any due process to mother-in-law jokes or are you attempting to be ‘hilarious’?
Dear God you’re stupid. |
Calm down dear. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:54 - Dec 22 with 920 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:43 - Dec 22 by Boundy |
You appear to be all over the place and frankly slightly hysterical " He was an absolute monster". Now you're referring to his war record, could it be that too many johnny foreigners were killed for your liking , I hate to break this to you but war can be a nasty way of resolving arguments between nations . By trying to compare a man to that odious scum bag Saville shows you really are struggling now to present a reasoned argument as to why the good people of Carmarthen ( yes even in west wales we have the internet ) who voted for his monument to remain are so wrong and you're right. |
You seem to have quite spectacularly misunderstood my point...
People can be heroes (in all sorts of ways, not only related to war) but if they are monsters it’s probably best not to shove a statue up. He was an odious scum bag. It was just a long time ago. I don’t believe time should change views on whether it’s right to celebrate such people. Your comment was ‘it was ages ago’ - I was asking how long you thought it acceptable before someone who was a hero in some sense but a complete piece of sh*t in another sense should be celebrated.
I wasn’t the one who suggested Carmarthen didn’t have the internet btw. I was pointing out that it was an online poll and the comment about the internet was irrelevant. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:57 - Dec 22 with 917 views | Fireboy2 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:52 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Calm down dear. |
HJ you have let yourself down with that remark. |  | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:01 - Dec 22 with 909 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:52 - Dec 22 by Highjack |
Calm down dear. |
Completely calm highjack. Your attempt to patronise is wasted on me.
Surely there must be some transgender issue you haven’t mocked as yet that could be occupying you? | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:05 - Dec 22 with 902 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:57 - Dec 22 by Fireboy2 |
HJ you have let yourself down with that remark. |
Really?
It’s completely par for the course. He always (in his view) punches down. He’s generally mistaken. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:07 - Dec 22 with 900 views | Dr_Winston |
I'm all for leaving such statues up with plaques detailing an accurate history of the portrayee. Removing them completely smacks of rewriting history, which is a slippery slope. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:07 - Dec 22 with 900 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:34 - Dec 22 by Lohengrin |
” They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement.”
I’ll go with wanting to honour the memory of a brave, brave man. His desperate bayonet charge into the flank of D’erlon’s Corps at Waterloo turned the tide. The whole of Europe is in his debt not just the people of Carmarthen. |
I suspect that you know only too well that his war record would be lost on many if not most of those who voted Loh. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:10 - Dec 22 with 898 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:07 - Dec 22 by Dr_Winston |
I'm all for leaving such statues up with plaques detailing an accurate history of the portrayee. Removing them completely smacks of rewriting history, which is a slippery slope. |
Yes, I agree with that.
A full history, including details of his actions, should be displayed. I think that’s what the council intend to do. Although I think a museum or similar is probably the best place for that. | | | |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:12 - Dec 22 with 892 views | Dr_Winston |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:10 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, I agree with that.
A full history, including details of his actions, should be displayed. I think that’s what the council intend to do. Although I think a museum or similar is probably the best place for that. |
Think they've done the same with the Colston statue in Bristol. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:14 - Dec 22 with 888 views | Boundy |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:54 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
You seem to have quite spectacularly misunderstood my point...
People can be heroes (in all sorts of ways, not only related to war) but if they are monsters it’s probably best not to shove a statue up. He was an odious scum bag. It was just a long time ago. I don’t believe time should change views on whether it’s right to celebrate such people. Your comment was ‘it was ages ago’ - I was asking how long you thought it acceptable before someone who was a hero in some sense but a complete piece of sh*t in another sense should be celebrated.
I wasn’t the one who suggested Carmarthen didn’t have the internet btw. I was pointing out that it was an online poll and the comment about the internet was irrelevant. |
Where exactly is your cut off point , which decade, century do we go back to before in your opinion are , monuments, statues are allowed to remain ? How about tearing down Cleopatra's Needle , a monument to commemorate Lord Nelson's victory at the battle of the nile (another target for cultural "review " ), A direct question , are you happy to pull on the ropes to help topple yet another example of the nasty boogy man from a bygone age. What's your view on Queen Victoria who oversaw the subjection of many nations , Albert Hall, the list is endless should they all go as well ?
and yes you did mean to denigrate those who voted " They obviously have enough internet to vote " | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:34 - Dec 22 with 869 views | Lohengrin |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:07 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
I suspect that you know only too well that his war record would be lost on many if not most of those who voted Loh. |
I sincerely hope that wouldn’t be the case, especially in Carmarthenshire of all places.
Do you know who Rosetta Smith was, Lis? Not a trick question, it’s one of those that you either know the answer or don’t. She was a black Trinidadian slave trader as famed for her cruelty as her beauty in her time and, for a spell, seems to have exerted the same influence over a smitten Picton that Salome had over Herod.
Some, if not most, of the excesses that the modern Left want the General to carry the can for were hers in reality. That’s an impossible circle for the likes of BLM to try and square. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:38 - Dec 22 with 864 views | Catullus |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 20:27 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
There is no self flagellation, moaning and wailing.
I just don’t believe that we should celebrate such people.
What do you think the right amount of time is before you can start erecting statues to psychopaths and child abusers? 20 years? 50?
Does the passage of time always render atrocities irrelevant? Or only when victims are far away?
The vast majority of residents couldn’t tell you anything whatsoever about him I imagine. They’ve simply voted to keep the statue because it will annoy supporters of the BLM movement. |
So the vast majority know nothing about him but you imagine they are all racists?
Like I said, and what I imagine you understood in my previous post, you are applying todays standards to a man who was judged in his own time and still (very soon AFTER his death) found worthy of a statue.
What we think of him today, by todays standards means that his statue should have a plaque which presents the full story and then people, especially those ignorant locals, can judge him appropriately. maybe when they learn the full truth they'll change their minds. Maybe they'll still consider his heroic efforts in defeating Napoleon balance the scales. Who knows. | |
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| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:44 - Dec 22 with 852 views | britferry |
| Picton Monument in Carmarthen on 21:10 - Dec 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes, I agree with that.
A full history, including details of his actions, should be displayed. I think that’s what the council intend to do. Although I think a museum or similar is probably the best place for that. |
the people of Carmarthen erected the monument to honour a local war hero.
the people of Carmarthen have now decided that it should stay exactly where it is.
History should not be eradicated because some modern day grease balls want to make it all nicey nicey. It should also not be tucked away in a corner of a museum. And as for mentioning Jimmy Saville in this thread... thats just the lowest of the low, quite unbelievable. | |
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