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Spot of bother now........ on 15:12 - Feb 5 by isawqpratwcity
Have you read through all of this thread? Have you seen any post of mine, anywhere, where I have criticised any of the criteria you list?
No, you haven't.
Btw, that stat that you say "bears no real relation to the true progress of this club" is the one that decides if we go into League One next season.
I put this on the Reading report:
"Never mind that I thought JFH shouldn't have been sacked, it didn't matter, he was gone and not coming back. But worse was, despite Holloway's pedigree, he just wasn't performing. Even the Wolves and Ipswich games weren't convincing.
"But this was the business. 100%, no question. A plan, performances from every player and confidence."
"But not for me. I hear his pronouncements only as the the usual 'manager's noises'. I go by what I see on the pitch. I thought the Reading and Fulham games were the best we've played since Warnock's promotion season (although tbf, I don't see that many games) and because it was such a complete turnaround (players performances, plan, spirit, confidence, everything), I give him unreserved, full credit for that improvement. Here's hoping that he can tap into that vein again. It's so close."
So don't tell me I'm doing this to get my rocks off. Do some research before you make accusations like that. I want Holloway to succeed as much as anybody, because if he succeeds, we succeed. I just don't subscribe to this ridiculous 'there's-nothing-wrong-with-Holloway' crap.
Sorry you're right. I should have re read all your posts from the last 3 months before posting. I do have them all in a book somewhere....honestly. I'm only going by what you're posting on this thread. I'm just hoping you are actually 14. As that would explain alot.
Technology advances, unfortunately humans do not.
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Spot of bother now........ on 16:16 - Feb 5 with 2769 views
Spot of bother now........ on 12:17 - Feb 5 by 2Thomas2Bowles
Depends Are you saying you are a festering poisonous Ollie hater "we're" ?
[Post edited 5 Feb 2017 12:20]
Don't be such a silly sausage.
I've already said i'm happy Ollies here. Im just trying to keep things in perspective. We are a mid table championship club that's skint (so we're told). Its quite reasonable to discuss the comparisons between JFH and IH. This is a QPR message board after all. What bugs me and probably some others on here is the hiring and firing of managers every 6 months. I wont be surprised if Ollie wont be here this time next season. I hope he is.
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Spot of bother now........ on 16:33 - Feb 5 with 2729 views
Spot of bother now........ on 16:12 - Feb 5 by cheeseydane
Sorry you're right. I should have re read all your posts from the last 3 months before posting. I do have them all in a book somewhere....honestly. I'm only going by what you're posting on this thread. I'm just hoping you are actually 14. As that would explain alot.
"I'm only going by what you're posting on this thread."
No you're not, you're too lazy to even do that, or you'd know different.
Spot of bother now........ on 13:45 - Feb 5 by isawqpratwcity
Yeah, but do you know it's worse?
You do understand how the league works, right? It doesn't go on whether you, me or anybody think we're playing better, it goes on the number of points you get.
That is why this isn't some aimless discussion over statistics. That is why it matters that Holloway's record is worse than Hasselbaink's. We are closer to relegation under Holloway than we were under Hasselbaink because we are winning points at a lower rate.
Keep making whatever value judgements you like, but points per game is the critical, objective measure. Don't pretend it isn't.
Yes I understand how league tables work and I understand how points work, I am not an idiot. If you are only judging managers on points per game then iain Dowie did a better job at QPR than Neil Warnock but it's not quite that simple.
You can tell me a million times that our points per game ratio was better under JFh and I'm sure it was but for me that doesn't mean I'm going to think we were better under him. Performances matter and I think they do lead to more consistent results in the end. Under JFH we beat Fulham and Bristol City so thats 6 points won and he looks great but anyone who saw those games would tell you we were very lucky in both and should have lost both games.
I think performances have been getting better since Holloway got here, you don't and I respect your opinion but please stop talking to me like I'm an idiot who doesn't understand how league tables work.
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Spot of bother now........ on 17:09 - Feb 5 with 2679 views
Spot of bother now........ on 16:16 - Feb 5 by PunteR
Don't be such a silly sausage.
I've already said i'm happy Ollies here. Im just trying to keep things in perspective. We are a mid table championship club that's skint (so we're told). Its quite reasonable to discuss the comparisons between JFH and IH. This is a QPR message board after all. What bugs me and probably some others on here is the hiring and firing of managers every 6 months. I wont be surprised if Ollie wont be here this time next season. I hope he is.
Spot of bother now........ on 17:07 - Feb 5 by daveB
Yes I understand how league tables work and I understand how points work, I am not an idiot. If you are only judging managers on points per game then iain Dowie did a better job at QPR than Neil Warnock but it's not quite that simple.
You can tell me a million times that our points per game ratio was better under JFh and I'm sure it was but for me that doesn't mean I'm going to think we were better under him. Performances matter and I think they do lead to more consistent results in the end. Under JFH we beat Fulham and Bristol City so thats 6 points won and he looks great but anyone who saw those games would tell you we were very lucky in both and should have lost both games.
I think performances have been getting better since Holloway got here, you don't and I respect your opinion but please stop talking to me like I'm an idiot who doesn't understand how league tables work.
"I think performances have been getting better since Holloway got here, you don't..."
Read my reply above to Cheesydane (today, 15:12; you might be surprised). Some of Holloway's games have been marvellous.
"You can tell me a million times that our points per game ratio was better under JFh and I'm sure it was but for me that doesn't mean I'm going to think we were better under him."
I'm happy that measures of goals and shots are indicators of a team working - not conclusive, but useful. Clive used shot stats in his Blackburn report today. You don't hold that sentiment and I respect that. They are the stats that earlier I implored you to please ignore.
But you just can't ignore points per game. That's where your league table comes from. A team with better points per game is going to be above you. Sorry if that sounds patronising but it's true, and I can't believe that you and several others dismiss that statistic in such a cavalier fashion. Look at the two teams either side of the relegation line: Burton have 31 points from 30 games, Blackburn 28 points from 29 games. They are both returning around the point a game that Holloway is currently delivering. A point a game means serious relegation risk.
"Performances matter and I think they do lead to more consistent results in the end."
Sure (and you mean consistently good, right?), but when? In League One? I don't think we are going to get relegated, but at the moment it is still way too close for comfort. Holloway's Reading and Fulham games were excellent and augur well for the future, but we need more of that future now, or at least very soon.
On the JFH v Olly debate - I can now see numerous improvements and lots of potential for further improvement. May not come to pass but under JFH and small sign of moving in the right direction was quickly squashed by a return to the dull, attritional nonsense the game after. We'd play well for the last 20 mins v Fulham or Forest and you'd think 'we're finally getting it' and then the week after it was all gone again. We're now structured to both attack and defend and performing for longer periods of time. We look like we can score. Still fairly sht, as the two results this week show, but more about us and better to watch.
On the relegation thing - our April is horrible so we need a nice steady Feb and march. We've got some decent games coming after Huddersfield, but you'd have thought Burton and Blackburn might have been one win at least. Injury to Mackie or Manning though, and a poor Feb results wise and it'll get tight.
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Spot of bother now........ on 18:38 - Feb 5 with 2541 views
Spot of bother now........ on 18:01 - Feb 5 by isawqpratwcity
"I think performances have been getting better since Holloway got here, you don't..."
Read my reply above to Cheesydane (today, 15:12; you might be surprised). Some of Holloway's games have been marvellous.
"You can tell me a million times that our points per game ratio was better under JFh and I'm sure it was but for me that doesn't mean I'm going to think we were better under him."
I'm happy that measures of goals and shots are indicators of a team working - not conclusive, but useful. Clive used shot stats in his Blackburn report today. You don't hold that sentiment and I respect that. They are the stats that earlier I implored you to please ignore.
But you just can't ignore points per game. That's where your league table comes from. A team with better points per game is going to be above you. Sorry if that sounds patronising but it's true, and I can't believe that you and several others dismiss that statistic in such a cavalier fashion. Look at the two teams either side of the relegation line: Burton have 31 points from 30 games, Blackburn 28 points from 29 games. They are both returning around the point a game that Holloway is currently delivering. A point a game means serious relegation risk.
"Performances matter and I think they do lead to more consistent results in the end."
Sure (and you mean consistently good, right?), but when? In League One? I don't think we are going to get relegated, but at the moment it is still way too close for comfort. Holloway's Reading and Fulham games were excellent and augur well for the future, but we need more of that future now, or at least very soon.
So Cutting the fat from the lamb, you think we need to win more games to get more points and don't think anyone but you understands that, so you have writen it down using 5000+ words (cut and pasted many of them) in X amount of posts in case we miss your point...
Spot of bother now........ on 18:01 - Feb 5 by isawqpratwcity
"I think performances have been getting better since Holloway got here, you don't..."
Read my reply above to Cheesydane (today, 15:12; you might be surprised). Some of Holloway's games have been marvellous.
"You can tell me a million times that our points per game ratio was better under JFh and I'm sure it was but for me that doesn't mean I'm going to think we were better under him."
I'm happy that measures of goals and shots are indicators of a team working - not conclusive, but useful. Clive used shot stats in his Blackburn report today. You don't hold that sentiment and I respect that. They are the stats that earlier I implored you to please ignore.
But you just can't ignore points per game. That's where your league table comes from. A team with better points per game is going to be above you. Sorry if that sounds patronising but it's true, and I can't believe that you and several others dismiss that statistic in such a cavalier fashion. Look at the two teams either side of the relegation line: Burton have 31 points from 30 games, Blackburn 28 points from 29 games. They are both returning around the point a game that Holloway is currently delivering. A point a game means serious relegation risk.
"Performances matter and I think they do lead to more consistent results in the end."
Sure (and you mean consistently good, right?), but when? In League One? I don't think we are going to get relegated, but at the moment it is still way too close for comfort. Holloway's Reading and Fulham games were excellent and augur well for the future, but we need more of that future now, or at least very soon.
All i'll say is that I agree those Reading, Fulham and also the Newcastle games were excellent and far better than anything we saw under Hasselbaink which is why I think we've got better since he left. If you judge those 3 games under under JFH and Holloway via points we only got one more under Holloway but the performances are so much better and we didn't lose any of those games by 6 goals second time around so I think to only judge on points doesn't tell the full story.
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Spot of bother now........ on 10:54 - Feb 6 with 2316 views
Being the self righteous arsehole that I am, I tend to not give a shit what division we are and would suggest everyone's health and wellbeing will be enhanced if we just go with the flow.
That said things feel better under Holloway, even the defeats.
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Spot of bother now........ on 11:05 - Feb 6 with 2283 views
Spot of bother now........ on 10:54 - Feb 6 by BazzaInTheLoft
Being the self righteous arsehole that I am, I tend to not give a shit what division we are and would suggest everyone's health and wellbeing will be enhanced if we just go with the flow.
That said things feel better under Holloway, even the defeats.
I just up arrowed that. Not only are you are right about going with the flow but you also have the enviable awareness to know that you're a self righteous arsehole.
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Spot of bother now........ on 12:43 - Feb 6 with 2190 views
Spot of bother now........ on 23:39 - Feb 4 by daveB
all depends how you read stats really, 3% difference in winning games suggests to me the team isn't very good and we were no better before than we are now.
I'll never agree with this mid table under Hasselbaink stuff, we were bang in trouble in the end under him just as we are now.
But I think just judging things by stats is ludicrous, Watching them in the last few months and seeing how we are playing now, how many more chances we create, how much more effort we are showing suggests to me we are getting better and results will improve.
We were stupidly unlucky today, should have been 1-0 up after scoring but end up with nothing, guaranteed at least a point if the goal is given imo
You may call them "ludicrous" Dave, but "stats" are ultimately what will decide our fate!
No points for deserving to win, playing "good" football, "bad" decisions etc etc etc
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Spot of bother now........ on 13:07 - Feb 6 with 2100 views
Spot of bother now........ on 12:43 - Feb 6 by PinnerPaul
You may call them "ludicrous" Dave, but "stats" are ultimately what will decide our fate!
No points for deserving to win, playing "good" football, "bad" decisions etc etc etc
yeah I understand points determine where we will finish in the table but I don't think points are the only way to judge if we are better or worse than under the previous manager.
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Spot of bother now........ on 13:12 - Feb 6 with 2078 views
Spot of bother now........ on 11:05 - Feb 6 by hoof_hearted
I just up arrowed that. Not only are you are right about going with the flow but you also have the enviable awareness to know that you're a self righteous arsehole.
A few people on here have given me a clue as well to be fair.
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Spot of bother now........ on 13:14 - Feb 6 with 2074 views
Spot of bother now........ on 13:07 - Feb 6 by daveB
yeah I understand points determine where we will finish in the table but I don't think points are the only way to judge if we are better or worse than under the previous manager.
I'll put things a different way....
I'm happier under Holloway and feel closer to the club.
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Spot of bother now........ on 13:32 - Feb 6 with 2045 views
Spot of bother now........ on 10:47 - Feb 6 by daveB
All i'll say is that I agree those Reading, Fulham and also the Newcastle games were excellent and far better than anything we saw under Hasselbaink which is why I think we've got better since he left. If you judge those 3 games under under JFH and Holloway via points we only got one more under Holloway but the performances are so much better and we didn't lose any of those games by 6 goals second time around so I think to only judge on points doesn't tell the full story.
Fine. That bunch of stats that I did after Holloway's first nine games showed that under Hasselbaink we scored more and conceded less than under Holloway, and that is including the 0-6 loss. And of course, on top of that we got more points, too.
"...so I think to only judge on points doesn't tell the full story."
Yeah, but what other criteria does the EFL use? Some kind of fanbase hope/trust/satisfaction index (which would have Holloway rating off the dial round here)? No, unfortunately not. Stuck with points.
And now you ignore all that and say you don't believe in statistics and won't convince you, et cetera, et cetera.
Spot of bother now........ on 13:32 - Feb 6 by isawqpratwcity
Fine. That bunch of stats that I did after Holloway's first nine games showed that under Hasselbaink we scored more and conceded less than under Holloway, and that is including the 0-6 loss. And of course, on top of that we got more points, too.
"...so I think to only judge on points doesn't tell the full story."
Yeah, but what other criteria does the EFL use? Some kind of fanbase hope/trust/satisfaction index (which would have Holloway rating off the dial round here)? No, unfortunately not. Stuck with points.
And now you ignore all that and say you don't believe in statistics and won't convince you, et cetera, et cetera.
I still fully understand how league tables work, I'm still not stupid. When JFH left we were 6 points off the drop, we're still 6 points off the drop so we're just as close to relegation as we were before Holloway came in.
All I'm saying is I think we look a better side now than we did under Hasselbaink. If your stats say I'm wrong then fine but I'm going on what I am watching every week and all the stats in the world won't convince we me were a better side under Hasselbaink than we look at the moment.
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Spot of bother now........ on 15:50 - Feb 6 with 3882 views
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