| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:05 - Nov 16 with 2814 views | Northernr |
This certainly isn't me saying, by the way, that I buy into all this "the boys are expressing themselves and the results don't matter". To a certain extent, the results don't matter, Steve Gallen's team used to win something every year it seemed, but never produced a first team player. But you don't "express yourself" or even learn very much getting dicked 10-0 at Colchester United. We're clearly not interested in growing a decent centre half!
I just think this unhealthy obsession with the current people involved - Ramsey, Suckling, Ferdinand - is unhealthy, unhelpful, not the real reason and letting the real reason off the hook.
Tell me, all these wonderful talented coaches we had before who were unfairly sacked by email and have been replaced by vastly inferior people just because they're mates with Les and Chris and Perry - how many first team players did they produce? None. Not one.
Coaches have come and gone. That Tony McCool bloke has been on Twitter and blogs for years after being sacked by Rigg, Kevin Gallen likewise. The one constant is we're producing nobody for our first team. The reason for that is the chronic lack of investment in the set up first by Paladini, then by Briatore and now by Fernandes. That's not Gallen, McCool, elder Gallen, Suckling, Ferdinand, Ramsey, Impey, Furlong's fault... The post earlier about Suckling not being able to be an academy director because he weas previously only a keeper coach is Steve Claridge stuff - if it was listened to and followed Arsene Wenger and Jose Mourinho would have got nowhere, because after all what can a lower league French bit part player and a Portuguese translator know about football compared to such high-achieving luminaries as Bryan Robson?
Lack of investment is why we're sht. It's taken place at a time when half a dozen clubs of our size on our patch have piled funds into their scouting and coaching, so now we're left with the dregs. Political bullsht and petty whispers about so and so's mate getting a job is a smokescreen behind which the people who should be held to account can hide.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | |  |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:24 - Nov 16 with 2766 views | derbyhoop |
But is there any chance that the situation will change under Ferdinand, Hoos, etc.?
If it does, it could still take another 10 years to improve significantly. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:40 - Nov 16 with 2753 views | danehoop |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:24 - Nov 16 by derbyhoop |
But is there any chance that the situation will change under Ferdinand, Hoos, etc.?
If it does, it could still take another 10 years to improve significantly. |
I agree to a point Clive, but we have been truly awful this year at all levels on the development side. A friend involved in the charlton set up commented to me that they thought that something seemed fundamentally wrong with our set up this year. |  |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 22:00 - Nov 16 with 2733 views | Northernr |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:40 - Nov 16 by danehoop |
I agree to a point Clive, but we have been truly awful this year at all levels on the development side. A friend involved in the charlton set up commented to me that they thought that something seemed fundamentally wrong with our set up this year. |
Yeh like I say I'm not buying this "results don't matter" when they're conceding 7s, 8s and 9s. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 22:23 - Nov 16 with 2700 views | Northernr |
That place is so far ahead of Harlington (which is where our first team train!) it's not true.
I'd urge you all, if you ever get a chance, to go down to Harlington and have a look. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 22:33 - Nov 16 with 2681 views | Jamie |
The fact that some people are genuinely trying to argue that Ramsey - a man who ran and oversaw one of the best academies in the country, with 3 very recent current graduates in their first team and all internationals - ruined QPRs academyis just mind boggling. |  | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 23:09 - Nov 16 with 2646 views | 1BobbyHazell |
My now 16 year old was at the scum for a number of years in his younger days, I knew a lot of people/coaches/dads involved in the scene and rangers had a terrible reputation at the time, they were considered light years behind Fulham, Palace and Chelsea. Even Brentford it seems. So it's those age groups we're looking at now getting the poor results. So not being able to get/hold onto the more talented youngsters at the time must be a factor. |  | | |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 07:49 - Nov 17 with 2583 views | PunteR |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:05 - Nov 16 by Northernr |
This certainly isn't me saying, by the way, that I buy into all this "the boys are expressing themselves and the results don't matter". To a certain extent, the results don't matter, Steve Gallen's team used to win something every year it seemed, but never produced a first team player. But you don't "express yourself" or even learn very much getting dicked 10-0 at Colchester United. We're clearly not interested in growing a decent centre half!
I just think this unhealthy obsession with the current people involved - Ramsey, Suckling, Ferdinand - is unhealthy, unhelpful, not the real reason and letting the real reason off the hook.
Tell me, all these wonderful talented coaches we had before who were unfairly sacked by email and have been replaced by vastly inferior people just because they're mates with Les and Chris and Perry - how many first team players did they produce? None. Not one.
Coaches have come and gone. That Tony McCool bloke has been on Twitter and blogs for years after being sacked by Rigg, Kevin Gallen likewise. The one constant is we're producing nobody for our first team. The reason for that is the chronic lack of investment in the set up first by Paladini, then by Briatore and now by Fernandes. That's not Gallen, McCool, elder Gallen, Suckling, Ferdinand, Ramsey, Impey, Furlong's fault... The post earlier about Suckling not being able to be an academy director because he weas previously only a keeper coach is Steve Claridge stuff - if it was listened to and followed Arsene Wenger and Jose Mourinho would have got nowhere, because after all what can a lower league French bit part player and a Portuguese translator know about football compared to such high-achieving luminaries as Bryan Robson?
Lack of investment is why we're sht. It's taken place at a time when half a dozen clubs of our size on our patch have piled funds into their scouting and coaching, so now we're left with the dregs. Political bullsht and petty whispers about so and so's mate getting a job is a smokescreen behind which the people who should be held to account can hide.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Yet we still managed to waste £200,000,000 +. The fact we still haven't got anything to show for it is shameful.
Yes it was good of the owners to clear the debt but its still hard to take what a wasted opportunity we had to properly start building lasting foundations at the club. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 08:05 - Nov 17 with 2572 views | ElHoop |
I'm only going by what I read and that might not be very accurate, but somewhere or other I read that Ramsey wanted the youth teams to play in the same formation as the first team. That might not in fact be true, but if it is true then he has to take some blame for the poor results of the youth sides, because he's setting the formation without any knowledge of the manpower which has to fit into that formation.
People say that the first team can't play 4-4-2 as we don't have the manpower. So if Ramsey had made us play 4-4-2 then presumably he would have been to blame for that? Surely each group of players should play to its strengths? Maybe we did play to our strengths at all levels, I have no idea, but sometimes I think that those who believe that replacing Ramsey in itself won't make any difference are to some extent filtering the facts to suit their point. |  | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 08:42 - Nov 17 with 2550 views | Mvpeter |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 20:54 - Nov 16 by Northernr |
Well whoever told you that (the last bit) is wrong. The turnover was far bigger and carried out less tactfully under Mike Rigg and Glynn Hodges. |
Now I am inclined to believe you on the turnover because I wasn't given any concrete numbers but I've seen the single line E-mails firing people. You'd have to try and cause offense to have less tact.
Either way we've got to stop judging things to the benchmark of previous failures. It seems like as long as the fans can find another example then it's fine. | |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:11 - Nov 17 with 2514 views | Mvpeter |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:05 - Nov 16 by Northernr |
This certainly isn't me saying, by the way, that I buy into all this "the boys are expressing themselves and the results don't matter". To a certain extent, the results don't matter, Steve Gallen's team used to win something every year it seemed, but never produced a first team player. But you don't "express yourself" or even learn very much getting dicked 10-0 at Colchester United. We're clearly not interested in growing a decent centre half!
I just think this unhealthy obsession with the current people involved - Ramsey, Suckling, Ferdinand - is unhealthy, unhelpful, not the real reason and letting the real reason off the hook.
Tell me, all these wonderful talented coaches we had before who were unfairly sacked by email and have been replaced by vastly inferior people just because they're mates with Les and Chris and Perry - how many first team players did they produce? None. Not one.
Coaches have come and gone. That Tony McCool bloke has been on Twitter and blogs for years after being sacked by Rigg, Kevin Gallen likewise. The one constant is we're producing nobody for our first team. The reason for that is the chronic lack of investment in the set up first by Paladini, then by Briatore and now by Fernandes. That's not Gallen, McCool, elder Gallen, Suckling, Ferdinand, Ramsey, Impey, Furlong's fault... The post earlier about Suckling not being able to be an academy director because he weas previously only a keeper coach is Steve Claridge stuff - if it was listened to and followed Arsene Wenger and Jose Mourinho would have got nowhere, because after all what can a lower league French bit part player and a Portuguese translator know about football compared to such high-achieving luminaries as Bryan Robson?
Lack of investment is why we're sht. It's taken place at a time when half a dozen clubs of our size on our patch have piled funds into their scouting and coaching, so now we're left with the dregs. Political bullsht and petty whispers about so and so's mate getting a job is a smokescreen behind which the people who should be held to account can hide.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
The talented coaches who had been unfairly sacked produced Sterling for one alongside my dad (wasn't fired, left a bout 5 years ago in case anyone thinks I'm all bitter about it.) The coaching was the only thing that kept him here till he was 15.
It was all we had going for us and that's why despite as you point out a chronic lack of investment they've been improving the output year on year. They were doing extremely well for the resources handed to them
It is absolutely ridiculous to try to compare the career paths of Suckling and Mourinho or Wenger. That is Claridge level stuff I'm afraid.
They both took very obvious normal gradual paths.
Perry Suckling 10 year as a goalkeeping coach - jump to head of the whole damned academy.
Jose Mourinho youth team coach at Vitória de Setúbal - assistant manager at Estrela da Amadora - scout at Ovarense -coach and translator at Sporting - coach and translator at Porto - assistant manager at Porto - assistant manager at Barcelona - assistant manager at Benfica - Manager of Benfica
Arsene Wenger was quicker but he still went - coach at RC Strasbourg - youth manager at RC Strasbourg - youth and reserve manager at RC Strasbourg - assistant manager at AS Cannes - manager at Nancy.
These are far more reasonable career paths. The issue isn't so much that it's a step up and a big step up. It's that's its almost exclusively a huge step up at every level of the club. While Mourinho and Wenger were performing those early roles they were learning. Who's teaching them?
Lack of investment is why we're sht, the question asked is why have we recently become shitter when we were improving. | |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:11 - Nov 17 with 2513 views | Mick_S |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 21:40 - Nov 16 by danehoop |
I agree to a point Clive, but we have been truly awful this year at all levels on the development side. A friend involved in the charlton set up commented to me that they thought that something seemed fundamentally wrong with our set up this year. |
I spoke with one of the coaches involved at Charlton after the defeat (through another line of work). He said that Rangers did not have one decent player of any standard on show that day. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:20 - Nov 17 with 2498 views | Mvpeter |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 22:33 - Nov 16 by Jamie |
The fact that some people are genuinely trying to argue that Ramsey - a man who ran and oversaw one of the best academies in the country, with 3 very recent current graduates in their first team and all internationals - ruined QPRs academyis just mind boggling. |
What's mindboggling is people saying that the assistant U21's coach ran and oversaw the whole academy. | |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:45 - Nov 17 with 2465 views | ElHoop |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:11 - Nov 17 by Mvpeter |
The talented coaches who had been unfairly sacked produced Sterling for one alongside my dad (wasn't fired, left a bout 5 years ago in case anyone thinks I'm all bitter about it.) The coaching was the only thing that kept him here till he was 15.
It was all we had going for us and that's why despite as you point out a chronic lack of investment they've been improving the output year on year. They were doing extremely well for the resources handed to them
It is absolutely ridiculous to try to compare the career paths of Suckling and Mourinho or Wenger. That is Claridge level stuff I'm afraid.
They both took very obvious normal gradual paths.
Perry Suckling 10 year as a goalkeeping coach - jump to head of the whole damned academy.
Jose Mourinho youth team coach at Vitória de Setúbal - assistant manager at Estrela da Amadora - scout at Ovarense -coach and translator at Sporting - coach and translator at Porto - assistant manager at Porto - assistant manager at Barcelona - assistant manager at Benfica - Manager of Benfica
Arsene Wenger was quicker but he still went - coach at RC Strasbourg - youth manager at RC Strasbourg - youth and reserve manager at RC Strasbourg - assistant manager at AS Cannes - manager at Nancy.
These are far more reasonable career paths. The issue isn't so much that it's a step up and a big step up. It's that's its almost exclusively a huge step up at every level of the club. While Mourinho and Wenger were performing those early roles they were learning. Who's teaching them?
Lack of investment is why we're sht, the question asked is why have we recently become shitter when we were improving. |
That's a top posting. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:57 - Nov 17 with 2300 views | nadera78 |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 08:05 - Nov 17 by ElHoop |
I'm only going by what I read and that might not be very accurate, but somewhere or other I read that Ramsey wanted the youth teams to play in the same formation as the first team. That might not in fact be true, but if it is true then he has to take some blame for the poor results of the youth sides, because he's setting the formation without any knowledge of the manpower which has to fit into that formation.
People say that the first team can't play 4-4-2 as we don't have the manpower. So if Ramsey had made us play 4-4-2 then presumably he would have been to blame for that? Surely each group of players should play to its strengths? Maybe we did play to our strengths at all levels, I have no idea, but sometimes I think that those who believe that replacing Ramsey in itself won't make any difference are to some extent filtering the facts to suit their point. |
IIRC the quote was for the teams to "all be playing the same way" which isn't the same thing as all playing to the same formation. I can see the U21s playing 4-2-31 to match the first team, because those players are all supposedly on the fringes and looking to step up, but not beyond that. I think it's more in terms of finding a pattern of play - out from the back instead of hitting the CF and playing off him, for example - rather than forcing every age group side to line up 4-2-3-1.
On the wider point, the last players of real quality that we had in the youths (Sterling and Parrett) are now in their early 20s so would have joined us about ten years ago. It's telling that we've had no-one since then, and that date coincides with the arrival of certain owners and the entire ethos of the club changing to one of focussing solely on the first team and not putting a brass farthing into the youth set up. Also around that time Fulham were putting into place an excellent Academy structure and Chelsea were hoovering up all and sundry. Other clubs we'd be competing with for players - Arsenal, Brentford, Watford, Reading - all have better facilities (and recent track records) than us. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:04 - Nov 17 with 2276 views | SuffolkHoop |
Do they read this forum? |  | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:06 - Nov 17 with 2272 views | aston_hoop |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:04 - Nov 17 by SuffolkHoop |
Do they read this forum? |
Well they certainly don't read their own articles. They refer to Perry Suckling as Perry Sucking twice. Mildly amusing. |  |
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:14 - Nov 17 with 2258 views | ElHoop |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:57 - Nov 17 by nadera78 |
IIRC the quote was for the teams to "all be playing the same way" which isn't the same thing as all playing to the same formation. I can see the U21s playing 4-2-31 to match the first team, because those players are all supposedly on the fringes and looking to step up, but not beyond that. I think it's more in terms of finding a pattern of play - out from the back instead of hitting the CF and playing off him, for example - rather than forcing every age group side to line up 4-2-3-1.
On the wider point, the last players of real quality that we had in the youths (Sterling and Parrett) are now in their early 20s so would have joined us about ten years ago. It's telling that we've had no-one since then, and that date coincides with the arrival of certain owners and the entire ethos of the club changing to one of focussing solely on the first team and not putting a brass farthing into the youth set up. Also around that time Fulham were putting into place an excellent Academy structure and Chelsea were hoovering up all and sundry. Other clubs we'd be competing with for players - Arsenal, Brentford, Watford, Reading - all have better facilities (and recent track records) than us. |
But if that's the case then he still stands accused of 'finding a pattern of play' which might not suit the players available on a given day. In fact that would also be my criticism of him as a first team coach - he was perhaps looking for a different style but some days surely you just have to get the job done as best you can, in any formation that works - that's also part of being a professional footballer at whatever level. I haven't got a problem with setting a general style of play for the whole club, but it has to be flexible as the sport is about winning and each game is different. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:18 - Nov 17 with 2247 views | SuffolkHoop |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:14 - Nov 17 by ElHoop |
But if that's the case then he still stands accused of 'finding a pattern of play' which might not suit the players available on a given day. In fact that would also be my criticism of him as a first team coach - he was perhaps looking for a different style but some days surely you just have to get the job done as best you can, in any formation that works - that's also part of being a professional footballer at whatever level. I haven't got a problem with setting a general style of play for the whole club, but it has to be flexible as the sport is about winning and each game is different. |
It seems to me pretty daft if the club has a formation and sticks with it regardless of the opposition or players available. What good is it doing the youngsters playing in a formation that doesn't suit them and getting thrased 8s and 9s by other groups of lads the same age?
If that is the case its not right. Think about it, they get on a bus to Colchester and visited much better facilities, against a team who more than likely play in a flexible way, and QPR play the same old formation that got them thrashed more than once already, playing lads in the wrong position and surprise surprise they lose 8-1. That does a 17 or 18 year old no good at all. [Post edited 17 Nov 2015 10:23]
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| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:21 - Nov 17 with 2237 views | Jamie |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 09:20 - Nov 17 by Mvpeter |
What's mindboggling is people saying that the assistant U21's coach ran and oversaw the whole academy. |
Showing your complete lack of knowledge about the fundamental inf a structure at the club there Petey. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:30 - Nov 17 with 2208 views | nadera78 |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 10:14 - Nov 17 by ElHoop |
But if that's the case then he still stands accused of 'finding a pattern of play' which might not suit the players available on a given day. In fact that would also be my criticism of him as a first team coach - he was perhaps looking for a different style but some days surely you just have to get the job done as best you can, in any formation that works - that's also part of being a professional footballer at whatever level. I haven't got a problem with setting a general style of play for the whole club, but it has to be flexible as the sport is about winning and each game is different. |
It's just not true to suggest that Ramsey stuck rigidly to a particular system or formation during his time at QPR. Last season he played 2 up front because the players we had suited that formation. This season he tried to change tack and brought in players to play his preferred way, but then got stuck with a group of senior players who everyone thought would be leaving. But even then, he did change the team structure for certain games. It's completely false to suggest he only played one way regardless of circumstances. | | | |
| Under 18's lose 8-1 in Essex on 11:14 - Nov 17 with 2132 views | Jamie |
Again showing yourself up Pete. Ramsey was academy director from 04-09 until John McDermott took over and he became u21 manager.
During his time as u21 manager he oversaw Kane, Mason, Bentaleb, Townsend, Walker, Naughton and many more.
Man City have spent £200m on the best academy in the world however don't expect to see results until at least 2022.
Yet in the 12 weeks Ramsey spent working at the club he apparently ruined the QPR setup?  | | | |
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