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Jelavic 20:29 - Mar 27 with 5685 views

hoopstar67

How many fans here said he would not be good enough for QPR or the premier league? Looks class and knows how to finish.

Jelavic on 10:33 - Mar 28 with 1287 views

TheBlob

Jelavic on 20:30 - Mar 27 by Northernr
Me, and I stand by it.

Same as that.

Another Mark Hateley for me.

Poll:

So how was the season for you?

Jelavic on 11:49 - Mar 28 with 1259 views

karl

Jelavic on 10:10 - Mar 28 by Northernr

You're really pushing "recently" here. All three players mentioned are retired and moved south years ago FFS! Name me players from Scotland who have moved south in the last four years and done well.

Because of what has happened since then with Setanta, and the television deal that replaced it, all but two SPL teams are now operating on gates and budgets that we get in League One and Two therefore the quality is about the same.

- St Johnstone, having a good season and currently fifth, are playing home league matches in front of 2,900 people. That's 700 less than watched Grimsby play Tamworth in the Conference last week.
- Motherwell are running at a profit miraculously, currently sitting third, but look at their accounts and you'll see their turnover is about the same as a Tesco Metro store. How can you be third in the league on that turnover and gates of 4,000 people? Their top scorer this season, incidentally, is Michael Higdon who was released on a free transfer in 2007 by Crewe.
- The second top scorer in the entire league is Jon Daly at Dundee Utd with 14 - previously scored just 32 goals in a hefty 184 appearances for the mighty Stockport, Bury, Grimsby Town and Hartlepool. So that's a player who couldn't score goals in League Two/Conference now banging them in regularly in a middling SPL team. Go figure.

It's a dreadful league. You only have to look at the crowds and the television money to suspect that it might be and then you don't need to watch it for more than a couple of weeks before it's confirmed. It's drek. Buying a player from there is now like buying one from League Two/Conference - you might find a good one, chances are you won't.

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

Your assesment is on the whole correct but to say there are no scottish players making it in england is about 10 yrs out of date.
Scottish football struggles in much the same way that smaller poorer clubs in england do, produce a good young player and they are snatched by a richer league before they've developed and played through the system. When did QPR last produce a 20 something who was sold for a tidy sum? Raheem Sterling played how many games before being sold?
Players in England at present who would normally have progressed through the Scottish system and then perhaps moved to an english club include James McCarthy (Hamilton/Wigan) James McArthur (Hamilton/Wigan) Graham Dorrans (Livingston/West Brom) Robert Snodgrass (Livingston/Leeds).
Granted none of these rank as world beaters (i think Dorrans is excellent) but i have deliberately picked players from clubs that were relegated (Hamilton) and the SFL Div 1 (Livingston) when the players moved. A look through the lower end of the EPL and the CCC shows a reasonable number of ex Scottish league players.

Jelavic on 11:51 - Mar 28 with 1258 views

Northernr

Jelavic on 11:49 - Mar 28 by karl

Of those you mention only Snodgrass is any kind of success, and that's in the Championship - he may well find, as Dorrans has, the step up too much if he ever makes it. Dorrans is no longer first choice in a poor West Brom team since promotion and the other two are about to be relegated with Wigan.

Jelavic on 12:13 - Mar 28 with 1247 views

karl

Jelavic on 11:51 - Mar 28 by Northernr
Of those you mention only Snodgrass is any kind of success, and that's in the Championship - he may well find, as Dorrans has, the step up too much if he ever makes it. Dorrans is no longer first choice in a poor West Brom team since promotion and the other two are about to be relegated with Wigan.

That is as maybe but i class the CCC as a richer league than Scotlands (and you do too i assume) so the fact that a lot of Scottish players are competing there tells me that we're producing young players at the moment. 10 yrs ago we never had these numbers.
Unfortunately for our own leagues more and more clubs can't compete with Lge 1 & 2 wages and instead of relying on youth alone many clubs are using journeymen quality players from these leagues to put in their squads (more or less as you've said). I can stand the fact my team (Hibs) are not very good at the moment but it does p me off to watch these below average 'never will be's' instead of potential stars from the youth team who might happen to play poor in half their games and possibly not make it as well but at least you've hope they might.
You've all followed QPR long enough to know that feeling and i think this season is fast turning into another spell of it!

Jelavic on 12:56 - Mar 28 with 1220 views

loftboy

Jelavic on 11:49 - Mar 28 by karl

Use of EPL

FFS theres no such thing

	favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Poll:	Are you watching the World Cup

Jelavic on 13:00 - Mar 28 with 1218 views

headhoops

Mark Hateley - world beater in the SPL (when it was good)
Sh1te in the Prem.
Kenny Miller - non stop goalscoring machine in the SPL
cows arse with a banjo down south.
The scots do not have one player who will make the GB olympic team end of.

Jelavic looks lightweight to me.

Poll:

Remy - can he play in the playoffs - who's opening post is the best?

Jelavic on 13:26 - Mar 28 with 1205 views

JonDoeman

Jelavic on 13:00 - Mar 28 by headhoops
Mark Hateley - world beater in the SPL (when it was good) Sh1te in the Prem. Kenny Miller - non stop goalscoring machine in the SPL cows arse with a banjo down south. The scots do not have one player who will make the GB olympic team end of. Jelavic looks lightweight to me.

"Jelavic looks lightweight to me. "
================================
Don't think them Sunderland defenders would agree with you.

It Is What It Is !!

Jelavic on 13:29 - Mar 28 with 1202 views

Northernr

Jelavic on 13:26 - Mar 28 by JonDoeman
"Jelavic looks lightweight to me. " ================================ Don't think them Sunderland defenders would agree with you.

To be fair it's only Kyrgiakos and Turner, both of whom were awful last night.

Jelavic on 16:32 - Mar 28 with 1154 views

karl

Jelavic on 13:29 - Mar 28 by Northernr
To be fair it's only Kyrgiakos and Turner, both of whom were awful last night.

I'm not normally so dogmatic to look these things up but i've had a look at the 25 man squads from the start of the season and January and found 40 players who have played in Scotland or qualify to play for the national team, some have now left the 'EPL' (sorry loftboy!)
In no order; Alan Hutton, Barry Bannan, Carlos Cuellar, Shay Given, Sotos Kyrgiarkos, Dorus de Vries, Adam Hammill, Stilian Petrov, David Goodwillie, Stuart Holden, James McFadden, Charlie Adam, Christophe Berra, Steven Fletcher, James McCarthy, Shaun Maloney, Conor Sammon, Craig Bellamy, Darren Fletcher, Peter Lovenkrands, Graham Dorrans, Roman Bednar, Stephen Dobbie, Craig Beattie, Craig Gordon, John Ruddy, Wes Hoolahan, Simon Lappin, Nikita Jelavic, Jamie Mackie, Russell Martin, James McArthur, Gary Caldwell, James Morrison, Marc Antoine Fortune, Phil Bardsley, Ricardo Fuller, Mikel Arteta, Robbie Keane, Eggert Jonsson.
The quality of player in this list does not say that the Scottish league system is of the highest quality but at any one time between 5-10% of the squads in England have been a part of that system and many have been shown to be poor players in Scotland yet can still get a contract in the richest league in the world. (Gary Caldwell & Kyrgiakos the best examples).

Jelavic on 16:47 - Mar 28 with 1143 views

Northernr

I'm afraid that list does more to back my point than yours. Success stories number about two once you take away players who moved north for a quick buck from Celtic and then moved straight back.

Jelavic on 16:50 - Mar 28 with 1140 views

karl

Jelavic on 10:10 - Mar 28 by Northernr

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

To be totally pedantic.

The population of Perth (St Johnstone's town) is 44820 and Motherwell 31180. This compares to Tamworth 74531, Stoke 259,000 and Wolverhampton 251,000.
Does Motherwell's 4000 crowd look ridiculous against that?

Jelavic on 16:51 - Mar 28 with 1138 views

Neil_SI

Jelavic on 16:32 - Mar 28 by karl

I still can't believe Spurs paid £8m for Alan Hutton, or whatever it was, that guy is a scrub and a thug on the pitch.

A lot of sides pay attention to players who have had previous Premiership experience, so they value that more than they probably ought to. Even Norwich City at one point were developing a strategy of trying to check out players who had competed at that level before, and had shown some interest in Rohan Ricketts as a result, which seemed bizarre.

The one player from Scotland who I liked that I saw last season was Scott McDonald at Middlesbrough. He seemed like a decent player, but still cost them the thick end of £3.5m and they spent a good £6m on Scottish based players overall under Gordon Strachan and it got them nowhere.

Jelavic on 17:01 - Mar 28 with 1126 views

karl

Jelavic on 16:47 - Mar 28 by Northernr
I'm afraid that list does more to back my point than yours. Success stories number about two once you take away players who moved north for a quick buck from Celtic and then moved straight back.

I do say that list does not state quality, but they have made an impact on the English game (they've earned a contract). 5-10% of the total players in the EPL have played in that system, it says to me that the EPL is not as 'elite' as many would like to think.
BTW i don't like the EPL from a QPR supporters point of view more than anything. I'm a great beliver in a fair distribution of money down through the leagues, if anything f'ed Scottish football it was giving a small percentage of the teams (Rangers and Celtic) an uneven amount of money. Scotland is 10% the size of England so for 2 teams in scotland read 20 in England

Jelavic on 17:13 - Mar 28 with 1118 views

Neil_SI

Jelavic on 17:01 - Mar 28 by karl

I'm not sure the loans to the Scottish team really count, that's more because those players had problems in their careers, and either fulfilled a boyhead dream by playing for a club they supported or they literally had nowhere else to go and wanted to gain confidence and get themselves back on track.

You can certainly say that about Robbie Keane and Craig Bellamy's time up there. Keane himself was frustrated by the facilities out there and the condition of the playing surfaces, but both were relatively short term loans and the fact they didn't return tells its own story.

The Premier League is actually more elite than people realise, in terms of the revenues it generates, which is incredible, but also a sad state of affairs that the majority of that money is lost and doesn't stay within the game.

The clubs can afford to pay ridiculous salaries though, so they can attract many players of all ilks and you reach a certain point where they stockpile players because they can afford to (whether they are worthy or not).

The sponsorship money is also allowing a lot of the smaller clubs who stabilise to compete over time in terms of salaries, and Stoke are an example of that. They are attracting a quality of player you never imagined they would be able to and this in turn means some of these mid sized clubs can pack a punch and beat the so called bigger teams.

Prior to this, the Champions League monies generated gave the top four a huge monopoly and advantage, and while it still does, it's not to the point that those teams can fend off challengers any more either. The other teams are making more than enough money to attract whoever, be it Scottish players, other foreigners or stockpiling youngsters.

Jelavic on 17:17 - Mar 28 with 1113 views

Northernr

Jelavic on 16:50 - Mar 28 by karl
To be totally pedantic. The population of Perth (St Johnstone's town) is 44820 and Motherwell 31180. This compares to Tamworth 74531, Stoke 259,000 and Wolverhampton 251,000. Does Motherwell's 4000 crowd look ridiculous against that?

No. It does look ridiculous against their league position though. That a team on 4,000 gates and the turnover of a Tesco Metro can reach third in the Premier League tells you the quality is pis rank. As does St Johnstone in fifth. Tamworth are in the fifth tier of our leagues.

My original point was: Scottish football is awful. You'd be an idiot to buy many players from there because of that. Very few players have come down from Scotland and done well (not just earned a contract) in recent times because the standard up there is so awful.

So far you've done far more for my point than your own with your posts. You've posted a list of 40, mostly awful, footballers who are, mostly, failing in England having come down south and agreed with me that teams from tiny towns with tiny gates compete in the SPL that simply doesn't happen down here. In fact I'm not entirely sure what your point is!

[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]

Jelavic on 17:24 - Mar 28 with 1042 views

karl

Jelavic on 17:13 - Mar 28 by Neil_SI

Don't have much time to reply.
Broadly agree with your champions league summary, never thought of the money situation like that tbh.
The main point i tried to make of that list was that very few were actual 'superstars' in Scotland (ala Larsson, Laudrup, Gascoigne), Keane and Bellamy included, yet they can and have made a career in England's top division.
I am certainly not trying to paint Scotlands current situation as rosy or even improving but its not fair to say its total s***e either.
We're all worried that no-one will want our flops if we're relegated and they cost millions!

Jelavic on 17:35 - Mar 28 with 1036 views

Neil_SI

Jelavic on 17:24 - Mar 28 by karl

I think some of those players you mentioned were established players before they reached Scotland. I think it's the other way around that's the problem, where players play in Scotland first and can they then go on to be an established player in a higher profile league? That figure is relatively low.

Henrik Larsson is the stand out player by a mile, he was genuine class, but got too attached to Celtic and didn't leave when he should have. Still, to go on an play for Barcelona and Manchester United for a short while is a great achievement and I'm sure he doesn't regret his choice.

Scottish football is poorer for many reasons, mainly because of a lack of funding and infrastructure in terms of its facilities. I think they'd be helped by moving to a larger Premier Division, but there are obviously a lot of sponsorship and revenue issues that would need to be solved before that was a reality. The Old Firm derbies drive a lot of the finance, and actually it even helps keep the other clubs afloat as they come to town more than the traditional twice and help generate needed income for some of the smaller sides.

I think it's a mess though, personally. When I think of the area, there are a lot of footballing fanatics up there, and there's certainly still the space to play football in park sand on the streets and for free. You see that less and less here in London, so the cultural upbringing for kids is changing and that in effect will change the type of players and characters developed over the long term. Of course, it's a little different North of here in England, where there are more fields and places to play football...

Scotland still has a chance to tap into that grass roots source.

Naturally some of the names you mentioned are fairly old now, but that also was at a time when there was more money for the top two, so they were able to compete and attract players disproportionately to the standing of the league. Now the purses have tightened, you really see how they struggle to bring players in of the same ilk.

Jelavic on 21:36 - Mar 28 with 1013 views

karl

Jelavic on 17:35 - Mar 28 by Neil_SI

I'm not comparing the 2 leagues as comparable quality wise the main point i'm trying to say is that on that list of 40 players all were signed and named in the 25 man squad of a EPL team this season and all have at one time or another played in Scotland, of that list NONE were classed in the bracket 'superstar' in Scotland (Keane and Bellamy really did not look exceptional, did they have to try? I don't know but Celtic never won the league with them so if they had it in them then they are not top class cos they never showed it when it was required) and yet they can all claim to earn a living in England's top flight.
Your point about stockpiling is relevant but i would class the players outside of the 25 as being 'stockpiled' and not the ones named, is it Murphy who was described as being the only 'surplus' player in our 25? Therefore no passengers.
I'm in Orkney and a large number of people play here but in January our 1st Astro pitch was opened, prior to that football was an indoor 5 a side game from Sept til April. That is Scotlands shame - a lack of facilities to suit our climate
We play summer football which is a good idea and one that the pro leagues should consider, it is very hard to grow grass in Scotland during the winter and though it is true a lot of the pitches are in poor nick its not easy to keep a surface in top condition when the grass isnt growing.
Quickly on the subject of the Old Firm, I would like to see the other clubs take the bull by the horns and go to a larger league and only play each other twice, the travelling support of the OF is often outweighed by the fact your game can be on tv satsun 12 noon ko so your overall gate is down and the way the tv money is divvied up (no direct payment for being on telly) means you often lose out on these supposed 'extra revenue' games.

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