| The Southport attack and Starmer 08:58 - Jan 21 with 5058 views | onehunglow |
Are we allowed to offer comments on here Mods
Thanks
Starmers comments of late are surely worth commenting . |  |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 23:33 - Jan 21 with 711 views | Boundy |
This. I never for a moment demanded Starmer release the full details of the attacker but that it was a terrorist attack and that we were under yet another attack , another although not related can sometimes trigger another " brave soul" to replicate such actions .
The sad thing is the security services could and should have done much better in preventing this from ever occurring in the first place. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 07:12 - Jan 22 with 614 views | AnotherJohn |
Personally, I still lean towards the view that certain basic information could have been put into the public domain early on, as indeed it has been in other cases. What was released is illustrated in a BBC report from two days after the arrest. This stated: "The 17-year-old boy, who was arrested on suspicion of murder and attempted murder after Monday's attack, has no known links to Islam. (...) The suspect, who has not been named because of his age, was born in Cardiff and later moved to Banks in Lancashire, a village that lies a few miles north of Southport." However, eye witnesses' reports of the ethnicity of the arrested person were leaking into social media, and the apparent mismatch with official statements undoubtedly opened the way for conspiracy theories. I do not believe that stating that the suspect came from a Rwandan family that had immigrated to the UK would have prejudiced legal proceedings, and that would have helped explain the apparent discrepancy between accounts of a Welsh suspect and what people at the scene reported on social media.
The MSM have been allowed to publish similar information in other cases. For example, in the Parson's Green case where an 18 year then unnamed suspect was arrested the newspapers were not restrained from printing additional details.
https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/everything-know-troubled-parsons-green-
There is also a question about whether the three referrals to Prevent could have been made public. By way of contrast, in the case of the Reading Park stabbings, the information that the 25 year old adult killer, Khairi Saadallah, was known to MI5 was released very early.
There are also interesting questions about the role of the CPS in delaying the release of information in the Southport case. It is reported that the police wished to proceed with charges relating to the ricin and the Al-Qaeda manual once this was known, and to release the information, but the CPS delayed this until October 28th allegedly causing tensions. In the event, the information about ricin and the manual did emerge before the trial, so this delay did not in fact remove any risk that existed of affecting the proceedings.
I appreciate that many lawyers will agree fully with Starmer's views on release of information, but think others will say the line could have been drawn in a different place. Last year Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism laws, said the Government and police should be more open about criminal cases to avoid an information gap being filled online.
https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/national/24687652.southport-row-continues-wa
It will be interesting to see what the inquiry says. [Post edited 22 Jan 7:17]
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 07:14 - Jan 22 with 606 views | mangohilljack |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 17:02 - Jan 21 by SullutaCreturned |
Well, apart from the small fact that...
reuters.com/fact-check/britain-not-releasing-murderers-make-room-anti-immigration-protesters-2024-08-26/
It may be a good idea to not post rabble rousing mistruths?
As for Starmer, he's no different to other politicians, a game player, a chancer who is in it for himself. I've yet to see anything that changes my mind on that opinion. |
Ah, a paid fact-checker—surely the beacon of absolute truth. In today’s world, the real purveyors of rabble-rousing and misinformation often hail from mainstream media (MSM) and those who uncritically accept every narrative handed to them by these institutions. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 08:23 - Jan 22 with 581 views | AnotherJohn |
Lord Kenneth Macdonald, KC, the former DPP has just given an interview on Times Radio in which he came down very much on the side of releasing more information earlier. He feels that more could have been said without prejudicing court proceedings. This from a former human rights lawyer, who was a co-founder of Matrix Chambers. [Post edited 22 Jan 8:42]
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 09:15 - Jan 22 with 543 views | onehunglow |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 08:23 - Jan 22 by AnotherJohn |
Lord Kenneth Macdonald, KC, the former DPP has just given an interview on Times Radio in which he came down very much on the side of releasing more information earlier. He feels that more could have been said without prejudicing court proceedings. This from a former human rights lawyer, who was a co-founder of Matrix Chambers. [Post edited 22 Jan 8:42]
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Victims have human rights | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:05 - Jan 22 with 524 views | onehunglow |
NB
As he was a few days short of 18th birthday he will not get a whole life sentence
He will also get a discount for pleading guilty
Down to Jusge now
I can see the verdict being very upsetting
We do not look after our kids | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:14 - Jan 22 with 505 views | controversial_jack |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:05 - Jan 22 by onehunglow |
NB
As he was a few days short of 18th birthday he will not get a whole life sentence
He will also get a discount for pleading guilty
Down to Jusge now
I can see the verdict being very upsetting
We do not look after our kids |
Let's hope the misguided right wingers don't go on another rampage | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:25 - Jan 22 with 508 views | Boundy |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:14 - Jan 22 by controversial_jack |
Let's hope the misguided right wingers don't go on another rampage |
Unlike the misguided lefties who welcome scum like himself into the country , read the back story of this lovely family. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:32 - Jan 22 with 504 views | onehunglow |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:25 - Jan 22 by Boundy |
Unlike the misguided lefties who welcome scum like himself into the country , read the back story of this lovely family. |
I’m fearful ,boundy,about this upcoming sentence
Ok,he will have a tough time in prison but it shouldn’t be down to similar prison scum to hand out “ justice” They are no better .
What can we do.
Reintroduce capital punishment
Anyone on possession of bladed article gets ten years prison
We are either serious about this or not
Meanwhile,his barrister will be preparing his mitigation . | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:39 - Jan 22 with 496 views | pencoedjack |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:09 - Jan 21 by Luther27 |
Is it an attempt to deflect from the grooming gang scandal? Does an act of terror take precedence?
Just to balance things out the BBC have investigated a Far Right group they think should be investigated. Everything is so predictable. |
Yes the timing of that was very predictable.
Some Yank just released from prison gave Victoria Derbyshire/ BBC a hard time on Newsnight last night.
I am starting to believe if you want what is best for your country/children/grandchildren, you are classed as 'far right'.
We need a new government that listens to what the majority of the country believes. |  | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:47 - Jan 22 with 492 views | onehunglow |
If yiu believe in punishment then yiu are seen as right wing
What exactly do left wingers do about murdering scum exactly | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 11:08 - Jan 22 with 466 views | mangohilljack |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 10:32 - Jan 22 by onehunglow |
I’m fearful ,boundy,about this upcoming sentence
Ok,he will have a tough time in prison but it shouldn’t be down to similar prison scum to hand out “ justice” They are no better .
What can we do.
Reintroduce capital punishment
Anyone on possession of bladed article gets ten years prison
We are either serious about this or not
Meanwhile,his barrister will be preparing his mitigation . |
I wouldn’t be so sure about him having a hard time in a British prison—these institutions are now overrun by individuals who share the same despicable mindset as this vile excuse for a human being. Prison is no longer what it once was
If the sentence handed down is as lenient as many expect, I fear it could lead to widespread unrest across the country. This time, no threats of immediate jail from out-of-touch government officials will be enough to suppress it.
The public has clearly had enough. They’re starting to see a glimmer of hope, especially with a certain DJ Trump now taking office across the pond.
As for Starmer, he’ll soon realise that the woke world we lived in just two days ago has crumbled away. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 14:57 - Jan 22 with 438 views | Dr_Winston |
At least they're clamping down on online retailers. That's a sure way to prevent anything like this ever happening again. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 16:37 - Jan 22 with 414 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 22:14 - Jan 21 by majorraglan |
Wouldn’t disagree with you. We’ve got monsters out in the community and ineffective laws, policies etc to deal with them. It’s a mess. |
Many of the policies actively protect them. Those who rioted and caused damage or attacked police officers or tried to set hotels on fire deserved everything they got, but then at the same time you have police telling a group of armed Muslims “stash your weapons back at the mosque we don’t want to have to arrest anyone”. The law needs to apply equally and fairly to everyone. This is why there is so much anger in the first place. |  |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 17:41 - Jan 22 with 392 views | onehunglow |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 14:57 - Jan 22 by Dr_Winston |
At least they're clamping down on online retailers. That's a sure way to prevent anything like this ever happening again. |
It’s a start but any cutlery draw has the capacity to provide weapons to kill.
Perfectly legitimate weapons of offence abound
It should be all about when these objects are in the possession of kids of school age in a public place
Consider also the availability of Acid and corrosive substances that are carried with criminal internet . | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:10 - Jan 22 with 373 views | majorraglan |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 07:12 - Jan 22 by AnotherJohn |
Personally, I still lean towards the view that certain basic information could have been put into the public domain early on, as indeed it has been in other cases. What was released is illustrated in a BBC report from two days after the arrest. This stated: "The 17-year-old boy, who was arrested on suspicion of murder and attempted murder after Monday's attack, has no known links to Islam. (...) The suspect, who has not been named because of his age, was born in Cardiff and later moved to Banks in Lancashire, a village that lies a few miles north of Southport." However, eye witnesses' reports of the ethnicity of the arrested person were leaking into social media, and the apparent mismatch with official statements undoubtedly opened the way for conspiracy theories. I do not believe that stating that the suspect came from a Rwandan family that had immigrated to the UK would have prejudiced legal proceedings, and that would have helped explain the apparent discrepancy between accounts of a Welsh suspect and what people at the scene reported on social media.
The MSM have been allowed to publish similar information in other cases. For example, in the Parson's Green case where an 18 year then unnamed suspect was arrested the newspapers were not restrained from printing additional details.
https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/everything-know-troubled-parsons-green-
There is also a question about whether the three referrals to Prevent could have been made public. By way of contrast, in the case of the Reading Park stabbings, the information that the 25 year old adult killer, Khairi Saadallah, was known to MI5 was released very early.
There are also interesting questions about the role of the CPS in delaying the release of information in the Southport case. It is reported that the police wished to proceed with charges relating to the ricin and the Al-Qaeda manual once this was known, and to release the information, but the CPS delayed this until October 28th allegedly causing tensions. In the event, the information about ricin and the manual did emerge before the trial, so this delay did not in fact remove any risk that existed of affecting the proceedings.
I appreciate that many lawyers will agree fully with Starmer's views on release of information, but think others will say the line could have been drawn in a different place. Last year Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism laws, said the Government and police should be more open about criminal cases to avoid an information gap being filled online.
https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/national/24687652.southport-row-continues-wa
It will be interesting to see what the inquiry says. [Post edited 22 Jan 7:17]
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In terms of releasing names, there are different rules in place for juvenile offenders. Generally, the details of juvenile offenders are never published unless a judge issues a direction at the conclusion of a case and then it’s the exception rather than the norm.
Proceedings at youth courts are subject to stringent rules, members of the public and the press aren’t allowed access to the Youth Courts.
Starmer was, in my opinion under the current rules right to play it the way he did, but that doesn’t mean the rules are still right and fit for purpose going forward. Once the genie is out of the bottle it’s impossible to get it back in, so a cautionary approach would be more prudent.
The CPS as prosecutors would be in close contact with the police throughout the investigation, they would be sighted on all developments and a request to Charge the suspect with additional offences required CPS consent. I’ve no idea what the delay was, but it may have been linked to the suspects appearance at Court where the additional Charges could be laid. Serving additional Charges or amending Charges at Court is standard procedure.
We defo need a review of what we’re prepared to disclose because the point you make about vacuums and information gaps is very valid. Before we had social media, the newspapers and TV observed the rules and what appeared in the public domain could be controlled effectively, these days we see plenty of idiots publish information whether it’s factual or not. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:24 - Jan 22 with 353 views | majorraglan |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 11:08 - Jan 22 by mangohilljack |
I wouldn’t be so sure about him having a hard time in a British prison—these institutions are now overrun by individuals who share the same despicable mindset as this vile excuse for a human being. Prison is no longer what it once was
If the sentence handed down is as lenient as many expect, I fear it could lead to widespread unrest across the country. This time, no threats of immediate jail from out-of-touch government officials will be enough to suppress it.
The public has clearly had enough. They’re starting to see a glimmer of hope, especially with a certain DJ Trump now taking office across the pond.
As for Starmer, he’ll soon realise that the woke world we lived in just two days ago has crumbled away. |
The guy is going to be a major target in person, I’ve no doubt he’s going to get a hard time. I can’t see him getting a lenient sentence, his lack of engagement at Court, late plea will all go against him.
I dare say the question is he bad or is he mad ? has been considered and answered, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point in the future he ended up in somewhere like Broadmoor, Rampton or Ashworth. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:42 - Jan 22 with 343 views | AnotherJohn |
Couldn't link a reply to Major's post for some reason.
Agree with the last para of this post about the way forward. On the rest I will just say:
1. I never suggested that releasing names was desirable - it was other basic information mentioned in my post that I had in mind.
2. Re Starmer's position, I think he was probably telling the truth about the advice he received, but the CPS and law ministers may have been over-cautious in tendering advice. This is what Lord Macdonald suggested in his radio interview, also adding that he thought the rule about contempt of court may need reviewing.
3. If you search, you will find a couple of articles that purport to give some insight into the tensions between the police and the CPS, including one by a BBC reporter which now seems to be unavailable. Here is another:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/21/axel-rudakubana-merseyside-police-ga | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:53 - Jan 22 with 330 views | majorraglan |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:42 - Jan 22 by AnotherJohn |
Couldn't link a reply to Major's post for some reason.
Agree with the last para of this post about the way forward. On the rest I will just say:
1. I never suggested that releasing names was desirable - it was other basic information mentioned in my post that I had in mind.
2. Re Starmer's position, I think he was probably telling the truth about the advice he received, but the CPS and law ministers may have been over-cautious in tendering advice. This is what Lord Macdonald suggested in his radio interview, also adding that he thought the rule about contempt of court may need reviewing.
3. If you search, you will find a couple of articles that purport to give some insight into the tensions between the police and the CPS, including one by a BBC reporter which now seems to be unavailable. Here is another:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/21/axel-rudakubana-merseyside-police-ga |
Fair comments. What I would add is that Lord MacDonald is commenting with hindsight, being in the hot seat and making a disclosure at the time is a different proposition. Imagine being the person who made a call to release info which a defence barrister then successfully argued had undermined the right to a fair trial and this monster got to walk free. It would be awful. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:53 - Jan 22 with 330 views | Gwyn737 |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:42 - Jan 22 by AnotherJohn |
Couldn't link a reply to Major's post for some reason.
Agree with the last para of this post about the way forward. On the rest I will just say:
1. I never suggested that releasing names was desirable - it was other basic information mentioned in my post that I had in mind.
2. Re Starmer's position, I think he was probably telling the truth about the advice he received, but the CPS and law ministers may have been over-cautious in tendering advice. This is what Lord Macdonald suggested in his radio interview, also adding that he thought the rule about contempt of court may need reviewing.
3. If you search, you will find a couple of articles that purport to give some insight into the tensions between the police and the CPS, including one by a BBC reporter which now seems to be unavailable. Here is another:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/21/axel-rudakubana-merseyside-police-ga |
I reckon there does need to be a hard look at the CPS over this one in particular.
I’ve seen some saying that Starmer should have overruled them and released the information anyway. I can’t see any good coming from those decisions made by a PM. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:58 - Jan 22 with 319 views | majorraglan |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:53 - Jan 22 by Gwyn737 |
I reckon there does need to be a hard look at the CPS over this one in particular.
I’ve seen some saying that Starmer should have overruled them and released the information anyway. I can’t see any good coming from those decisions made by a PM. |
100% agree, can you imagine that? That would mean politicians interfering with the course of justice.
The politicians and the judiciary should be 2 separate entities both of him should be subject to scrutiny. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:15 - Jan 22 with 291 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 18:53 - Jan 22 by majorraglan |
Fair comments. What I would add is that Lord MacDonald is commenting with hindsight, being in the hot seat and making a disclosure at the time is a different proposition. Imagine being the person who made a call to release info which a defence barrister then successfully argued had undermined the right to a fair trial and this monster got to walk free. It would be awful. |
I can’t imagine any scenario where he would walk free. They are talking bollocks on this one. Lucy letby’s name was in the press for years before her trial as have many other perpetrators of horrendous crimes. | |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:17 - Jan 22 with 285 views | majorraglan |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:15 - Jan 22 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
I can’t imagine any scenario where he would walk free. They are talking bollocks on this one. Lucy letby’s name was in the press for years before her trial as have many other perpetrators of horrendous crimes. |
Name was, but that was it. There’s was no disclosure on information etc, once Charged it went quiet. | | | |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:38 - Jan 22 with 254 views | Dr_Winston |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 17:41 - Jan 22 by onehunglow |
It’s a start but any cutlery draw has the capacity to provide weapons to kill.
Perfectly legitimate weapons of offence abound
It should be all about when these objects are in the possession of kids of school age in a public place
Consider also the availability of Acid and corrosive substances that are carried with criminal internet . |
I was being sarcastic.
Obviously Labour (and their media attack dogs like James O'Brien) are desperately trying to spin the narrative on this one to the availability of weapons as opposed to the fact that this kid was known to be dangerous for months, if not years before he did what he did and nobody did anything.
O'Brien's piece where he links the attack to Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is barking mad. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:55 - Jan 22 with 232 views | Gwyn737 |
| The Southport attack and Starmer on 19:38 - Jan 22 by Dr_Winston |
I was being sarcastic.
Obviously Labour (and their media attack dogs like James O'Brien) are desperately trying to spin the narrative on this one to the availability of weapons as opposed to the fact that this kid was known to be dangerous for months, if not years before he did what he did and nobody did anything.
O'Brien's piece where he links the attack to Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is barking mad. |
Years.
Permanently excluded at 13 and 3 referrals to Prevent.
This should be apolitical. | | | |
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