| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin 22:42 - Oct 27 with 5994 views | AndyCole |
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This is the question, right now. All Concept and no real substance ? One of the hottest topics in the corridors of power.
The ayes have it, I say. All concept and no real, proper substance.
Martin's brand shouts all Concept, and no Reality. He's like an interior Designer positioning partitions, shaping style, colour swatches and cushions. Whereas in reality the senior players, the Chief Architects for making things happen on the pitch, as we build and find a way of winning with Plan B, deliver as best as they can - despite, not because of the flamboyant Design Concepts (Plan A).
So far in his managerial career Martin is clearly all Concept with mediocre results. The harsh Reality right now is all about winning. Flamboyant design concepts need to be consigned to the managerial filing cabinet, under M for....Martin, mediocre. 16th in the table, unheard of, in yonks.
The investors are all about a winning Reality, not Conceptual design. There's much at stake, especially right now.
It's time to deliver Reality with a proper Plan B, where Designer, Chief Architects and the entire team are fully aligned and delivering.
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:49 - Oct 28 with 886 views | KeithHaynes |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:25 - Oct 28 by Whiterockin |
I have always said that we should give Martin time, but the Cardiff and WBA performance/results show what we can do. Now we need to do it on a regular basis. |
Those two games were a fantastic endorsement of what he is doing at the club. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:50 - Oct 28 with 884 views | Whiterockin |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:49 - Oct 28 by KeithHaynes |
Those two games were a fantastic endorsement of what he is doing at the club. |
100% but don't you think we should kick on from here and expect it more often. |  | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:56 - Oct 28 with 863 views | KeithHaynes |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:50 - Oct 28 by Whiterockin |
100% but don't you think we should kick on from here and expect it more often. |
I think we will see it more often, not as much as some demand, but we definitely will. However I stick with my consolidation, just stay up season reasoning. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 19:00 - Oct 28 with 856 views | Whiterockin |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:56 - Oct 28 by KeithHaynes |
I think we will see it more often, not as much as some demand, but we definitely will. However I stick with my consolidation, just stay up season reasoning. |
I think top half, just, is well within our scope. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 19:10 - Oct 28 with 835 views | KeithHaynes |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 19:00 - Oct 28 by Whiterockin |
I think top half, just, is well within our scope. |
Ups and downs, it’s what we do 👠| |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 19:15 - Oct 28 with 830 views | magicdaps10 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 18:56 - Oct 28 by KeithHaynes |
I think we will see it more often, not as much as some demand, but we definitely will. However I stick with my consolidation, just stay up season reasoning. |
It's a season of transition however much some want to ignore it or are unable to see it, it's the reality.
Mid table, progress with an entertaining style of football with some good results plus there will be bad. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 20:05 - Oct 28 with 803 views | ItchySphincter |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 00:56 - Oct 28 by Treforys_Jack |
I'm enjoying my matchday experience, that's really all that matters. |
Million times better. |  |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 20:08 - Oct 28 with 801 views | vetchonian |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 19:15 - Oct 28 by magicdaps10 |
It's a season of transition however much some want to ignore it or are unable to see it, it's the reality.
Mid table, progress with an entertaining style of football with some good results plus there will be bad. |
Robertos first season was transition we were promoted as champions, Sousas season was transitional we even dropped and transferredtge heartbeat of the Martinez side in Leon yet we improved our league position then the following season we had another transition season and finished higher and got promoted....2 seasons later under Laudrup another transition season we finished 3 league places higher than the previous season and won a major trophy....all transitional seasons yet improvement demonstrated...so what's different | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 20:21 - Oct 28 with 791 views | ItchySphincter |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 09:45 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
But has had the benefit of the 3rd highest amount spent on transfers in the league this year and 2nd highest in our football league history to make up for it.
Swings and roundabouts. Let's keep it balanced. |
We’ll being as most of the first team superstars walked out of the door for nothing what did you expect? Keep it balanced, eh? | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 21:06 - Oct 28 with 750 views | Catullus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 20:08 - Oct 28 by vetchonian |
Robertos first season was transition we were promoted as champions, Sousas season was transitional we even dropped and transferredtge heartbeat of the Martinez side in Leon yet we improved our league position then the following season we had another transition season and finished higher and got promoted....2 seasons later under Laudrup another transition season we finished 3 league places higher than the previous season and won a major trophy....all transitional seasons yet improvement demonstrated...so what's different |
Do people really expect that evry change of manager will bring improvement?
The seasons mentioned were change but not really transition and look at the money we spent in some of those seasons.
We are changing the way we play, Martin has to educate the whole squad and get them playing this style with a higher degree of fitness, that was never going to happen in a few months, not entirely to the finished article.
I still think some peoplehave made up their minds about what is going on and will look for bad news, even where there isn't really any.
Time. Patience Understanding. Pragmatism. Loyalty, to the club if not the manager.
STID. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 22:58 - Oct 28 with 723 views | Minesapint |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 21:06 - Oct 28 by Catullus |
Do people really expect that evry change of manager will bring improvement?
The seasons mentioned were change but not really transition and look at the money we spent in some of those seasons.
We are changing the way we play, Martin has to educate the whole squad and get them playing this style with a higher degree of fitness, that was never going to happen in a few months, not entirely to the finished article.
I still think some peoplehave made up their minds about what is going on and will look for bad news, even where there isn't really any.
Time. Patience Understanding. Pragmatism. Loyalty, to the club if not the manager.
STID. |
Dont confuse "concern" with "disloyalty".
We are ALL fans of the same club.
I really dislike this notion that anyone who voices concerns is a lesser fan than those with blind faith.
We all want the Swans to fly high. Nobody wants failure. Bad for the game, the city and nobody wants to give Scumdiff reason to crow over our demise.
Far healthier to say you disagree and give your reasons rather than insinuate anyone who is critical is disloyal.
I am in the camp who desperately wants Martin's vision to bring results. We have seen glimpses. Now we really need consistency with the occasional bump in the road which is always going to happen.
STID too. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 23:37 - Oct 28 with 715 views | AndyCole |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 22:58 - Oct 28 by Minesapint |
Dont confuse "concern" with "disloyalty".
We are ALL fans of the same club.
I really dislike this notion that anyone who voices concerns is a lesser fan than those with blind faith.
We all want the Swans to fly high. Nobody wants failure. Bad for the game, the city and nobody wants to give Scumdiff reason to crow over our demise.
Far healthier to say you disagree and give your reasons rather than insinuate anyone who is critical is disloyal.
I am in the camp who desperately wants Martin's vision to bring results. We have seen glimpses. Now we really need consistency with the occasional bump in the road which is always going to happen.
STID too. |
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You've captured the entire essence of this thread.
Proper fans will always look at ways of improving, constructively critique and kick on.
It could be argued that the 'In Martin we trust' fans who simply bury their heads, are the lesser fans. Can't be arxed to put the thinking caps on, empathise with the leadership team in striving for ways of improving.
The thinking fans will look to put themselves in the shoes of the leadership team. What could we do better, to find The winning formula. That's the essence of this thread.
So, any takers from the 'In Martin we trust' camp willing to suggest how we can further improve to make that shared vision a reality ?
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 00:41 - Oct 29 with 705 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 20:21 - Oct 28 by ItchySphincter |
We’ll being as most of the first team superstars walked out of the door for nothing what did you expect? Keep it balanced, eh? |
Can you list them for me?
Ayew is the only first team superstar that left for nothing. He has been replaced by Piroe, who is showing greater goal returns so far than Ayew ever did.
That’s perfectly balanced. One out, one in.
Patterson has come in with Lowe going out. Patterson has more goal returns at this point in the season than Lowe. One out, one in.
The only area we have weakened is Guehi for Williams and Roberts for Laird.
However the midfield has brought in Downes and Ntcham without really losing anyone and added Obafemi up front. Attack, midfield and probably keeper have all improved.
Balance. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 1:29]
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 00:47 - Oct 29 with 704 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 21:06 - Oct 28 by Catullus |
Do people really expect that evry change of manager will bring improvement?
The seasons mentioned were change but not really transition and look at the money we spent in some of those seasons.
We are changing the way we play, Martin has to educate the whole squad and get them playing this style with a higher degree of fitness, that was never going to happen in a few months, not entirely to the finished article.
I still think some peoplehave made up their minds about what is going on and will look for bad news, even where there isn't really any.
Time. Patience Understanding. Pragmatism. Loyalty, to the club if not the manager.
STID. |
Most of Martin’s 11 now have come from a football playing team. I assume it’s the reason he signed them, even Piroe was brought up on it at PSV and Feyenoord.
I don’t buy this “he has had to educate them all to pass the ball” stuff. It’s what a lot of these guys have always done. Laird was in his team last year at MK Dons, Ntcham was at Celtic, Williams at Liverpool etc etc
All this “time” stuff is all well and good, but it doesn’t mean you sit back and not pass comments on poor performances and poor results, especially when they are coming thick and fast. There comes a “time” where you judge them as they come.
As soon as we got to where we wanted to be “WBA and Cardiff” then I don’t see a reason why we cannot expect that to be the general standard of play. Again not every week, football isn’t like that. But the standard we can expect going forward.
Not next season or the year after…. now. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 00:48 - Oct 29 with 702 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 22:58 - Oct 28 by Minesapint |
Dont confuse "concern" with "disloyalty".
We are ALL fans of the same club.
I really dislike this notion that anyone who voices concerns is a lesser fan than those with blind faith.
We all want the Swans to fly high. Nobody wants failure. Bad for the game, the city and nobody wants to give Scumdiff reason to crow over our demise.
Far healthier to say you disagree and give your reasons rather than insinuate anyone who is critical is disloyal.
I am in the camp who desperately wants Martin's vision to bring results. We have seen glimpses. Now we really need consistency with the occasional bump in the road which is always going to happen.
STID too. |
Excellently put. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 05:53 - Oct 29 with 672 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 23:37 - Oct 28 by AndyCole |
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You've captured the entire essence of this thread.
Proper fans will always look at ways of improving, constructively critique and kick on.
It could be argued that the 'In Martin we trust' fans who simply bury their heads, are the lesser fans. Can't be arxed to put the thinking caps on, empathise with the leadership team in striving for ways of improving.
The thinking fans will look to put themselves in the shoes of the leadership team. What could we do better, to find The winning formula. That's the essence of this thread.
So, any takers from the 'In Martin we trust' camp willing to suggest how we can further improve to make that shared vision a reality ?
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Regarding your second sentence, is that really the "fans" job? if performances are disastrous then fair enough, we can show our dissatisfaction. How can proper fans genuinely "look for ways of improving" as you put it. Its just the age old conversation in the pub after the game that has now morphed into internet forums. |  | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 07:26 - Oct 29 with 660 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 05:53 - Oct 29 by Treforys_Jack |
Regarding your second sentence, is that really the "fans" job? if performances are disastrous then fair enough, we can show our dissatisfaction. How can proper fans genuinely "look for ways of improving" as you put it. Its just the age old conversation in the pub after the game that has now morphed into internet forums. |
Discussing the pros and cons of the set up is what fans have always done.
It seems awfully strange to me that for the past 2 seasons we have had moaning on a weekly basis despite getting results beyond expectations.
The moment we start underperforming then suddenly any realistic talk regarding the performances is beyond the pale.
I would like to know how many of the people moaning about people critiquing these performances were the ones moaning when we were more often than not winning last season.
I bet it is a air few. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 07:38 - Oct 29 with 659 views | JJJack |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 14:21 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Ayew plays in the Middle East and in his 30’s, Guehi was on loan and Lowe rarely gets a game in this league. Roberts is a fair loss.
I can’t think of too many people that would take them back on the proviso we hand back Piroe, Patterson, Ntcham, Laird, Williams, Downes, Joseph and Obafemi.
We are a stronger team this year both on paper and on grass. |
So presumably you're laying the poor results at Martin's door? |  | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 07:55 - Oct 29 with 654 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 07:38 - Oct 29 by JJJack |
So presumably you're laying the poor results at Martin's door? |
Of course. Who else's door would I lay it at?
He gets the praise when we win, he gets the flack when we lose. Just like any other manager. Martin is no different, no matter how many seem to want it to be otherwise.
If Cooper had said he was changing the style, stayed on and did every single thing Martin has done this season, he would have been slated to kingdom come.
We all know that. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 08:49 - Oct 29 with 634 views | magicdaps10 |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 07:55 - Oct 29 by Dr_Parnassus |
Of course. Who else's door would I lay it at?
He gets the praise when we win, he gets the flack when we lose. Just like any other manager. Martin is no different, no matter how many seem to want it to be otherwise.
If Cooper had said he was changing the style, stayed on and did every single thing Martin has done this season, he would have been slated to kingdom come.
We all know that. |
hmmm, very interesting that and that's not how it always works.
Now Adam, it's WORTH me reminding and I am not saying it is you but some fans put the fightback from being 3-0 down to Luton as being down to the senior players and nothing to do with Martin.
What I am trying to say, there has been no consistency in regards to this Martin issue that has been here since the day he joined. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 08:55 - Oct 29 with 633 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 08:49 - Oct 29 by magicdaps10 |
hmmm, very interesting that and that's not how it always works.
Now Adam, it's WORTH me reminding and I am not saying it is you but some fans put the fightback from being 3-0 down to Luton as being down to the senior players and nothing to do with Martin.
What I am trying to say, there has been no consistency in regards to this Martin issue that has been here since the day he joined. |
Well you need to be WORTH your salt and do a bit of research then don't you.
It really isn't difficult.
Get the praise when he wins, take the flack when he doesn't. Easy. | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:18 - Oct 29 with 600 views | sw02sea |
What I can’t understand is he said he was building/coaching a team, starting with the defence, and working his way up the field to the attack.
I’m sorry if I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but if his concept of a back 3, is Bennett, Naughton, and Manning, (and this is after starting with the defence) that is concerning.
If your talking of Concept vs Reality, the reality is, that concept certainly isn’t going to work in the long term.
Just for the record, I’m totally behind RM, and sometimes we play the type of football that warms the cockles of my heart.
This, after the soulless Cooperball (but successful) couple of years, I’ll take every time, but I get where this thread is coming from.
But we have to give RM and his staff time, before we see the reality of their methods.
STID | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 13:10 - Oct 29 with 582 views | vetchonian |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 21:06 - Oct 28 by Catullus |
Do people really expect that evry change of manager will bring improvement?
The seasons mentioned were change but not really transition and look at the money we spent in some of those seasons.
We are changing the way we play, Martin has to educate the whole squad and get them playing this style with a higher degree of fitness, that was never going to happen in a few months, not entirely to the finished article.
I still think some peoplehave made up their minds about what is going on and will look for bad news, even where there isn't really any.
Time. Patience Understanding. Pragmatism. Loyalty, to the club if not the manager.
STID. |
Cat , I would have least expected the status quo.....I was trying to point out just because there is transisiton it doenst mean things have to go backwards.
I was amazed at the start of the season at the "euphoria" pronouncing how much things were better yet the results did now show it....I was impressed with the the no socore draws and alomost fell asleep during the Milwall game. Somone described things akin to "the emporers new clothes"
I have questioned and critiqued based on the research I did on Martin...and also his choice of set up ie playing players out of position....Cabango and Williams on the worng sides and hacing Naughtin in the middle.
I am loyoal to the club and the manager but that doesnt mean I cannot ctirique...It appeared that the last two home games we had got the formula right ...long may it continue.
I Just am not going to accpet we might have to struugle in the league to accomodate the "revolution" in playing style....and given this is basiclly now MArtins team with a "paasing pedigree".....we should be well on our way. Mind you it wasnt as though we didnt pass the ball on the floor last season though some people still persisit in the myth we were a total hoofball side.
I too am STID loyal to the club and its players manager etc....but that doesnt mean I cant question? | |
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| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 16:43 - Oct 29 with 561 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 12:18 - Oct 29 by sw02sea |
What I can’t understand is he said he was building/coaching a team, starting with the defence, and working his way up the field to the attack.
I’m sorry if I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but if his concept of a back 3, is Bennett, Naughton, and Manning, (and this is after starting with the defence) that is concerning.
If your talking of Concept vs Reality, the reality is, that concept certainly isn’t going to work in the long term.
Just for the record, I’m totally behind RM, and sometimes we play the type of football that warms the cockles of my heart.
This, after the soulless Cooperball (but successful) couple of years, I’ll take every time, but I get where this thread is coming from.
But we have to give RM and his staff time, before we see the reality of their methods.
STID |
"Soulless but successful", I like that phrase. Recieve an up arrow. | | | |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 00:16 - Oct 30 with 494 views | AndyCole |
| Concept vs Reality: brand Martin on 23:37 - Oct 28 by AndyCole |
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You've captured the entire essence of this thread.
Proper fans will always look at ways of improving, constructively critique and kick on.
It could be argued that the 'In Martin we trust' fans who simply bury their heads, are the lesser fans. Can't be arxed to put the thinking caps on, empathise with the leadership team in striving for ways of improving.
The thinking fans will look to put themselves in the shoes of the leadership team. What could we do better, to find The winning formula. That's the essence of this thread.
So, any takers from the 'In Martin we trust' camp willing to suggest how we can further improve to make that shared vision a reality ?
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It's a tad disappointing to see the simple 'In Martin we trust' troupe have still yet to proffer ways in which we can kick on, to improve and become the winning force we were so accustomed to of late. Disappointing. but not unexpected from the unthinking.
Let's hope that the younger generation, now far less intimidated to post here again, against the grain of the minority abusive types, contribute far more to this thread actively encouraging constructive critique.
These younger, more ebullient types will 'see' far more than some of our tired, head in the sands, apathetic supporters unable to conjure a meaningful word of constructive critique.
So very telling how some see constructive critique as a chore, a 'job', Clearly some are a million miles behind where the proper fans resides nowadays.
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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