| Wigan into administration 12:37 - Jul 1 with 28435 views | BrianWilliamsBeard |
I presume that will be minus 12 points. |  | | |  |
| Wigan into administration on 19:25 - Jul 4 with 3388 views | johnhoop |
| Wigan into administration on 18:37 - Jul 4 by MelakaRanger |
And In general that problem is paying wages to staff that are more than the club can afford.
In any other business field the majority of the football league clubs would be bankrupt and cease trading. In football. Nah.
Football needs to have 30 or more clubs go out of business and maybe then the others would realise the folly of their ways else they too would face bankruptcy. Only then might we get football back to where it should be |
What with thirty or so grass roots clubs probably beloved by their home towns gone while the sickening spectacle of Premier League excess steamrollers on with the Man U’s and Chelsea’s paying players 15-20 million a year funded by tv deals from China etc.
Is that where football should be? | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 20:00 - Jul 4 with 3316 views | terryb |
| Wigan into administration on 19:25 - Jul 4 by johnhoop |
What with thirty or so grass roots clubs probably beloved by their home towns gone while the sickening spectacle of Premier League excess steamrollers on with the Man U’s and Chelsea’s paying players 15-20 million a year funded by tv deals from China etc.
Is that where football should be? |
Who are these thirty or so clubs please?
Some clubs have gone over the years in exactly the same way they have gone over the past 140 years. Many of them reappear as pheonix clubs such as Hereford & Aldershot. Others of them have been bankrupt more than once such as Farnborough & Ilkeston. That doesn't stop the re-incarnation still spendimg x times more than the income chasing the golden dream & not giving a damn to the chaos that has been caused to the club diehards & it's creditors.
The commom denominator is that they have owners that spend a releative fortune on players wages due to their own ego trips until the money runs out. It is nothing to do with the Premier League.
I know of one player in the '60's who was playing as an "amateur" who was unemployed & refused on a regular basis to turn professional because "he couldn't afford it"! His signing on fee each season was a new top of the range car. Not "loaned" to him for the season but his property!
In the early '90's it was far from uncommon that players at the top isthmian League clubs received wages of £300 per game/week (according to their contract). That would be paid to the majority of the squad of approx 18 - Players wages £5.5k or £11k per week with gate receipts a mere fraction of that.
What the top Conference clubs paid is anybodies guess.
The owners of clubs at all levels chase the dream at levels that are not sustainable. | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 20:33 - Jul 4 with 3239 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Wigan into administration on 17:16 - Jul 4 by qprd |
I dont agree
People connected with the game obviously do care, which is the reason why they created the FFP regulations (although the rules and their enforcement have been a mess)
Ultimately, though, wages will remain high until a salary cap is introduced. However, all the game's stakeholders will oppose it b/c (i) in the case of players, itll reduce their earnings, (ii) in the case of agents, itll reduce their earnings, as theirs are tied to the players, (iii) in the case of leagues, it reduces the competitiveness/standards of the leagues as top talent will go to other leagues... also, fans are largely indifferent to their own clubs finances b/c its money out of the owners pockets, not theirs
the fact that football clubs lose a lot of money is not new, and honestly is not really a big issue.... in nearly every case, the owners fund the losses. if the owners are unwilling to fund the losses, a new owner comes in and covers them..... an incredibly high percentage of non-prem teams lose money, and yet administrations are very rare...
the issue here is really an issue of the ownership.. if owners want to lose money, that is their prerogative... the efls responsibility should be to ensure that "fit and proper" owners are actually buying these clubs... they should also be doing some kind of diligence to ensure that that the owners actually have sufficient funds to cover losses/request some kind of enforceable guarantee to ensure they dont walk away leaving clubs in a mess
id separately argue that high wages actually havent crippled the game, but actually made it much better from a talent perspective... the premier league is the best league in the world b/c teams attract the best players b/c they pay them the most.... the standard of player in the championship is also higher than it was 10-15 years ago... from a fans perspective, who cares if some billionaire in the us or china loses a few million quid a year? |
Good counter-intuitive post but I think the problem is in your penultimate para. Dodgy owners get a free pass because the authorities are useless but in fairness the people with the cash to fund huge losses disproportionately tend to be dodgy. There's a reason they're willing to stump up and it's often to do with buying respectability with dirty money.
So the dilemma is: do we stop this crook laundering his money through this club, and thereby see the club close, or do we turn a blind eye and keep the club alive?
You could argue that if they stopped the crooks then the cash supply would shrink leading to deflation of players wages but the trouble is that with some clubs having big income streams (or the odd reputable owner with deep pockets) the rest simply can't compete and either plummet down the leagues (losing revenue with each relegation and risking collapse) or gamble on living beyond their means. | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 20:45 - Jul 4 with 3215 views | Miss_Terraces |
How are potential owners, getting loans to buy football clubs? It's not a sound investment, is it? They can't afford to buy a club but somehow they can afford it's debts and repayments on the loan.
How are the authorities allowing clubs to be brought through loans? It's obvious to me that they don't have the financial means to run a club.
Wages are far too high but owners are buying into that when they buy the club. If they are not aware of the ridiculous wages when they buy the club, they are not fit to run a club. I watched Sunderland till I die, the owner was going through the wages after he brought the club, I was flabbergasted. How can you spend millions on a football club and not know something as important as the salaries of the players? | |
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| Wigan into administration on 21:58 - Jul 4 with 3145 views | zicoshoops |
| Wigan into administration on 11:54 - Jul 4 by OldPedro |
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Bloody hell 😳
Nico, is that you son?
I know we’ve all passed a lot of water in the last few years, but.........
Any news on my dough that went for a long walk?
What’s going on?
We should be told
Sort it out [Post edited 4 Jul 2020 22:02]
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| Wigan into administration on 10:23 - Jul 5 with 2870 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Wigan into administration on 18:37 - Jul 4 by MelakaRanger |
And In general that problem is paying wages to staff that are more than the club can afford.
In any other business field the majority of the football league clubs would be bankrupt and cease trading. In football. Nah.
Football needs to have 30 or more clubs go out of business and maybe then the others would realise the folly of their ways else they too would face bankruptcy. Only then might we get football back to where it should be |
"Football needs to have 30 or more clubs go out of business and maybe then the others would realise the folly of their ways else they too would face bankruptcy." All that would happen there is that the elite would suck even more money out of the game and the grass roots football would die. I'm guessing you are not a big fan of football outside the top clubs? |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Wigan into administration on 10:28 - Jul 5 with 2862 views | davman |
| Wigan into administration on 08:25 - Jul 4 by stevec |
It might be an idea if the likes of Gary Lineker concentrated on the scandal of players wages being the actual reason why so many clubs like Wigan are on the brink of going bust.
Still, much more fun speculating about a bet in the Philippines. |
Not just that though, is it? The obscene money on offer in the top flight will always attract chances and criminals. If football wants to protect itself (the 91+ non league, that money simply has to be better distributed down the pyramid.
But because they don't, it won't and the TV money is the chief reason. Lineker is paid by that too, so don't expect sympathy... |  |
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| Wigan into administration on 14:55 - Jul 7 with 2710 views | francisbowles |
BBC says Wigan appealing. Force majeure, i.e. Pandemic.
Think they may get a reduction depending on if they can point to that be the real or main reason. | | | |
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| Wigan into administration on 15:22 - Jul 7 with 2643 views | Northernr |
| Wigan into administration on 14:55 - Jul 7 by francisbowles |
BBC says Wigan appealing. Force majeure, i.e. Pandemic.
Think they may get a reduction depending on if they can point to that be the real or main reason. |
Problem with that is I'd think quite a few owners would quite like a quick dip in and out of admin to clear debts and if it's force majeure for one then it has to be force majeure for all.
The other problem is these owners took over the club in June - the pandemic was not a secret in June. |  | | |
| Wigan into administration on 15:46 - Jul 7 with 2576 views | ted_hendrix |
Over 70 support staff got laid off yesterday and the first team squad are being paid 20% of their salaries, the last thing you'd want as a club at the moment is exactly what they are currently going through.
I kind of wan't them to get through this in a strange sort of way, turn the clock back a couple of decades and football was never like this, I know it's a bit blah, blah etcetera but you went to watch your team on a Saturday and sometimes on a Wednesday evening and that was it.
It won't stop there I'm sure, the people or person or whoever who allowed this to happen should be absolutely made to suffer, of course that won't happen, who ever gave a 'flying one' about clubs supporters? |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Wigan into administration on 17:23 - Jul 7 with 2424 views | loftus77 |
| Wigan into administration on 15:22 - Jul 7 by Northernr |
Problem with that is I'd think quite a few owners would quite like a quick dip in and out of admin to clear debts and if it's force majeure for one then it has to be force majeure for all.
The other problem is these owners took over the club in June - the pandemic was not a secret in June. |
Yes - and also the lawyers for Barnsley, Luton, 'Boro, Hull, Huddersfield et al will be circuling if there is any suggestion of retreat on the points deduction from the EFL.
Whatever the ins-and-outs of this sad episode, the 12-pt deduction has to be seen through or there will be total chaos.
Any news on Sheff Wed btw?? | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 17:27 - Jul 7 with 2406 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Wigan into administration on 15:46 - Jul 7 by ted_hendrix |
Over 70 support staff got laid off yesterday and the first team squad are being paid 20% of their salaries, the last thing you'd want as a club at the moment is exactly what they are currently going through.
I kind of wan't them to get through this in a strange sort of way, turn the clock back a couple of decades and football was never like this, I know it's a bit blah, blah etcetera but you went to watch your team on a Saturday and sometimes on a Wednesday evening and that was it.
It won't stop there I'm sure, the people or person or whoever who allowed this to happen should be absolutely made to suffer, of course that won't happen, who ever gave a 'flying one' about clubs supporters? |
100%
Feel for them. |  |
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| Wigan into administration on 17:46 - Jul 7 with 2370 views | terryb |
| Wigan into administration on 15:46 - Jul 7 by ted_hendrix |
Over 70 support staff got laid off yesterday and the first team squad are being paid 20% of their salaries, the last thing you'd want as a club at the moment is exactly what they are currently going through.
I kind of wan't them to get through this in a strange sort of way, turn the clock back a couple of decades and football was never like this, I know it's a bit blah, blah etcetera but you went to watch your team on a Saturday and sometimes on a Wednesday evening and that was it.
It won't stop there I'm sure, the people or person or whoever who allowed this to happen should be absolutely made to suffer, of course that won't happen, who ever gave a 'flying one' about clubs supporters? |
A couple of decades ago ted, many clubs went into administration.
Apart from ourselves, I can think of Leicester, Leeds, Southampton, Portsmouth & Ipswich straight away. I'm sure there were lot a few more as well. Coventry? Bournemouth? Orient? Luton?
Of course, we were the only club to come out of administration no better off! Ipswich did their best to follow our example though! I'm sure Wigan will survive & come back strongly. I have every sympathy for them.
It does seem strange to me that clubs finances are now (ignoring covid) back to the worrying level of the early 2000's rather than the last decade where they seemed a little more stable. [Post edited 7 Jul 2020 17:54]
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| Wigan into administration on 18:21 - Jul 7 with 2308 views | R_from_afar |
The trouble is that FFP as it currently works is *contributing to* the problems.
The system is at present based on revenues, so, permitted spend is determined by a club's income, and there's the first problem: if you take League 1 as a random example, Burton's revenues are nowhere near Sunderland's. Some clubs sit in enornodomes which can accomodate tens of thousands, some sit in tin shacks which can squeeze in fewer than 10,000. Some clubs used to be massive and still have a fan base which belies their current lowly position in the pyramid, others have never been big. In a nutshell, from a revenue perspective, the playing field simply is not level.
A much better idea would be to require clubs to work within the same, maximum playing budget, for the whole squad, so, say, £10m (random number) for every Championship side. That nullifies the disparity in revenues.
All the time that FFP continues to be based on revenues, smaller clubs are going to struggle. All things being equal, you get what you pay for in the transfer market; OK, clubs should be developing their own players but it will be tough to survive on home-grown players alone and not source any players via transfers. Burton's FFP compliant budget will simply not go as far as Sunderland's, but the disparity means that Sunderland have a much better chance of staying below the limit - they have more to spend. Burton, on the other hand, face a real challenge avoiding breaching FFP. I picked these two clubs as random examples, by the way.
All the time that FFP - which really should drop the middle F - sticks to the revenue based approach, smaller clubs will be forced to try to turn base metal into gold.
FFP as it currently stands is not fit for purpose, it favours the bigger clubs, and it actually pushes smaller clubs to, and even over, the edge. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Wigan into administration on 22:04 - Jul 7 with 2050 views | Mistication92 |
I wouldn't mind a salary cap, like in American sports, where everything is upfront, no undisclosed fees. Everyone knows the salary of the player, the transfer fee etc.
OTOH I can see why better supported clubs wouldn't want that, Sunderland should be able to spend more than Burton, their revenue greatly exceeds Burton's! I'm a supporter of FFP because it stops here today, gone tomorrow owners whilst encouraging slow growth.
IMO FFP isn't saying you can't spend, it allows for unlimited spend on infrastructure (stuff that will stand the test of time), but for wages you need to back it up with revenue. So a team getting 3k in a 10k stadium needs to build up its income and by doing so can spend more and grow.
I remember Hull and Swansea being ropey (old) 3rd division sides, but both grew their fanbases over time and went up the leagues. Brentford have grown over the last decade using money from player sales and now sit on the cusp of the PL and a new stadium. Bristol City have improved their ground to be PL-worthy, Brighton similar, Doncaster, Rotherham, . I'm sure AFC Wimbledon will go from perennial L1 relegation battlers to comfortably mid-table or better once they're in their new ground. Also Luton in the future.
Alternatively you've got us and Bournemouth, spunked all the money on wages, we already got the consequences, Bournemouth will get them soon - IIRC 92% of their revenue is TV money.
The thing to do to increase the power of FFP would be to start lowering the loss limit to encourage clubs to be getting closer to break even. | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 09:18 - Jul 8 with 1891 views | TGRRRSSS |
2 decades ago didn't we have the ITV Digital fiasco?
Many went into admin, but at the time, the main club who I remember suffering was good old QPR, and Wright and the dodgy ABC connection.... enter Gianni Paladini... (a few years later admittedly)
SOmehow the main difference is global money laundering figures one'#s never heared of and the EFL playing at management
Thats one hell of a bet to cover all those debts from the last 18 months though????
How much could one get on a bet for a minor team in the northwest of England getting relegated?
Or is there something else entrirely???
No I can't get it either.
I see the PFA's views on Wages means the only way it omes down is yes clubs going to the wall. |  | | |
| Wigan into administration on 10:04 - Jul 8 with 1816 views | themodfather |
until football as a whole gets a grip on players wages and agents fees ( we had fewer problems in the game before agents imo) clubs will struggle. the theory a fw seasons in the prem league clears your debts is worth it, well the prem league causes more debts by trying to compete, we are a good example.
wigan is a rugby league town, we had it a few years ago when going up there for a promotion game and their rugby league team was at Wembley, we had to switch the game earlier to allow them to watch rugby. the recent takeover seems very dodgy | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 10:07 - Jul 8 with 1809 views | francisbowles |
Until the 70's, clubs used to get a share, it may have been 30%, of away receipts.
Then the big clubs managed to force through a measure that they would keep all of 'their' income. All clubs get now is a small commission on the away tickets that they sell.
A return to the previous system might be helpful to balance things a little. If we went to eg Leeds we would get a cut of the gate. Especially helpful when ticket prices are high.
There are two teams on the pitch. In what other form of entertainment do performers only get paid every other gig? | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 11:26 - Jul 8 with 1757 views | francisbowles |
| Wigan into administration on 15:22 - Jul 7 by Northernr |
Problem with that is I'd think quite a few owners would quite like a quick dip in and out of admin to clear debts and if it's force majeure for one then it has to be force majeure for all.
The other problem is these owners took over the club in June - the pandemic was not a secret in June. |
Yes, agree with that. It would seem that their (the fans) best hope is that the 12 points is overturned due to improper conduct. The club (owners) won't be appealing on those grounds though and the Football League would be made to look foolish as well. | | | |
| Wigan into administration on 12:33 - Jul 8 with 1719 views | R_from_afar |
| Wigan into administration on 22:04 - Jul 7 by Mistication92 |
I wouldn't mind a salary cap, like in American sports, where everything is upfront, no undisclosed fees. Everyone knows the salary of the player, the transfer fee etc.
OTOH I can see why better supported clubs wouldn't want that, Sunderland should be able to spend more than Burton, their revenue greatly exceeds Burton's! I'm a supporter of FFP because it stops here today, gone tomorrow owners whilst encouraging slow growth.
IMO FFP isn't saying you can't spend, it allows for unlimited spend on infrastructure (stuff that will stand the test of time), but for wages you need to back it up with revenue. So a team getting 3k in a 10k stadium needs to build up its income and by doing so can spend more and grow.
I remember Hull and Swansea being ropey (old) 3rd division sides, but both grew their fanbases over time and went up the leagues. Brentford have grown over the last decade using money from player sales and now sit on the cusp of the PL and a new stadium. Bristol City have improved their ground to be PL-worthy, Brighton similar, Doncaster, Rotherham, . I'm sure AFC Wimbledon will go from perennial L1 relegation battlers to comfortably mid-table or better once they're in their new ground. Also Luton in the future.
Alternatively you've got us and Bournemouth, spunked all the money on wages, we already got the consequences, Bournemouth will get them soon - IIRC 92% of their revenue is TV money.
The thing to do to increase the power of FFP would be to start lowering the loss limit to encourage clubs to be getting closer to break even. |
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
The one for all maximum playing budget I referred to does not need to be so large as to be potentially ruinous for clubs.
Larger clubs already benefit from higher awareness and greater media interest and are also generally more attractive to prospective players. Their bigger income also gives more scope to promote their club.
If they are then allowed to spend more on players than their smaller rivals too, they are being given a huge advantage over them, in my humble opinion. Not that there is any chance of the football authorities giving two hoots about what we all think.... | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Wigan into administration on 21:44 - Jul 8 with 1640 views | Match82 |
| Wigan into administration on 11:26 - Jul 8 by francisbowles |
Yes, agree with that. It would seem that their (the fans) best hope is that the 12 points is overturned due to improper conduct. The club (owners) won't be appealing on those grounds though and the Football League would be made to look foolish as well. |
They are effectively 1 point behind Barnsley and 4 points behind Hull with vastly superior goal difference. Their next two games... are against Barnsley and Hull. They might do this. |  | | |
| Wigan into administration on 21:51 - Jul 8 with 1619 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Causing community assets (such as Football Clubs) to go into administration should be a crime with a custodian sentence. |  | | |
| Wigan into administration on 21:54 - Jul 8 with 1604 views | daveB |
| Wigan into administration on 21:44 - Jul 8 by Match82 |
They are effectively 1 point behind Barnsley and 4 points behind Hull with vastly superior goal difference. Their next two games... are against Barnsley and Hull. They might do this. |
I think they will do it, they are good at the back and have goals in them |  | | |
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