| Quick look at the financial statements 13:32 - Dec 28 with 23607 views | Nigeriamark |
As I mentioned in another post I have put together some of the data from the financial statements in a table & will give a simple/factual statement as to what they dhow. Clearly what we can do in the future is still a better of opinion but at least this gives a view on what the state of finances are as of end of May 2018. Unfortunately this is the first year where very detailed information is given, but I have looked at the balance sheet for the last 10 years which gives some insights.
I have attempted to explain how to look at these from the point of view of someone who may not be familiar with these documents so sorry if some of the explanations seem obvious
Table 1 - 2017 & 18 full financials
To May 18 To May 17
Gross Rev 5,412,000 6,000,000
Cost of sales -3,830,000 -3,161,000
Admin costs -1,943,000 -1,563,000
Distribution costs -31,000 0
Other income/loss 108,000 133,000
Intrest payable/received -23,000 -45,000
Total Profit/Loss -307,000 1,364,000
Exceptional income 1,429,000 -2,330,000
P/L on normal business -1,736,000 -966,000
Net assets 2,571,000 2,878,000
Table 2 - Exceptional items
2018 2017
Transfer fees 711,000 2,166,000
TV Money 455,000 17,000
Prize money 263,000 147,000
Total. 1, 429,000. 2,330,000
Table 3 - Increase in asset value last 10 years
GBP Assets
to May 18 -307,000 2,571,000
To May 17 1,356,000 2,878,000
to May 16 -419,000 1,522,000
to May 15 1,426,000 1,941,000
to May 14 -65,000 515,000
to May 13 -372,000 580,000
to May 12 353,000 952,000
to May 11 480,000 599,000
to May 10 143,000 119,000
To May 09 -24,000
I have split the next section into 3, How to read financials ( very basic) followed by what I think the Rochdale financials are saying ( mainly factual + some reasonable "guestimates", and finally a brief summary
READING FINANCIALS
Although gross revenue is important, it is not relevant until you take away what you have spent. This gives us the net revenue, which is also called profit or loss. This is the money that if you run at a profit you can put into your bank and if you run at a loss you need to take out of your bank. Many companies will look at this from 2 perspectives:-
1. How the " normal" operation is running - This looks only at income and expenditure that is predictable and occurs every year. This would include gate money, sponsorships, EFL money etc as incomes and Salaries, maintenance etc. This profit loss on normal business is an indication of the general health of the business and if positive means that you are not requiring something that cannot be guaranteed to happen to balance the books
2. Total operation - This is as above but then adds in items that are not guaranteed to happen. For income this could be Transfer fees and sell ons received, Money from drawing a big club in a cup etc. For expenditure this could be a fee paid for a player. If positive and you are running a positive normal operation this would be considered " cream on top" and could be used to fund something not initially planned. If normal business is negative then you would need to use this additional income to cover the loss
Unfortunately we only have exceptional item breakdown for 2018 & 2017 so hard to judge trends
3. Table 3 - Increase/decrease in assets
Although we do not have full financials, we have the asset value over 10 years. In 2009 the club had a negative value but over the last 10 years we have recorded a total of approx 2.6m profit so we stand as of May 2018 with assets of 2.571m. Although this is an average of 260,000 a year, it is not a smooth increase but swings dramatically between + 1.4m and - 400,000. We can estimate below the reason for this
WHAT DO THE FINANCIALS SEEM TO BE SAYING
1. Normal Business. The club has lost about 2.7m over 2017 & 2018 or approx 110,000 per month. Revenue from gates actually increased slightly, but Salaries jumped significantly as did Admin cost. It would seem that as a result of a large transfer/sell in 2017, the club then pushed out the boat on players or other staff
Based on the fact that we have never had massive increases in staff, income, crowds etc I would estimate that we have probably incurred losses on normal business in most if not all of the last 10 years
2. Total Business. After over 110 years of business, we find ourselves with assets of approx 2.6m a figure also earned over the last 10 years. The fact that year end 2015 and 2017 account for more than this amount and the fact that we have full details of 2017 show that the biggest individual factor in getting to where we are is not the way the club runs it's normal business, but its dependence on exceptional items. This is not regular though and it is primarily through these 2 exceptional years ( not sure which transfers or sell ons would be hear). Prize money and TV money is also contributing, but it is the transfers that have got us to where we are. We have still lost money in 4 of the last 9 years even with all the windfalls
3. Assets. These would confirm my above points. Most of the normal business is under our control and the nature of the market we compete in suggest that although I don't have the detail, it is likely to have followed a similar loss making pattern. I would guess that in league 2 the gross revenue and costs were lower but we also did not achieve the same level of income from TV money, transfers etc. As a result we would have been running losses but not 110,000 per month
SUMMARY
1. Rochdale is a loss making club based on normal business and I would estimate probably always have been. In an effort to stay in league 1 we have "pushed out the boat" since the league 2 days, but increases in revenue from ticket sales will probably not have got anywhere near covering this. Sponsorships increased in 2018 but with lack of detailed data before 2017 it is hard to see if this is a trend
2. Unlike earlier years we have been relatively successful in the selling market, but not every year. As a result we have turned normal losses into a profit and our assets have risen. If we are to maintain the squad, level of spending we incur in league 1 we are going to have to "guarantee" a supply of players that we can sell on at a profit ( + try to win cup ties for prize money and a possibility of money spinning ties)
Over the last 5 years we seem to have a set of financials that a lot of EFL clubs would love, but it is dependent on continuing with our "selling club" model. It is not a lack of ambition but a financial imperative, much that it pisses of many fans.
My final comments would be based on "appetite for risk". You can take my data and moving forward justify any course of action based on your personal appetite for risk. For example:-
1. We could buy players in January or hand money back to fans with lower cup tie tickets and justify this by saying we believe we will continue to be successful in identifying and selling on talent
2. We could manage with what we have ( or free transfers) and maximise ticket prizes with the justification that transfers could dry up and we need to take a less risky policy in terms of what we spend.
That is why for example no-one is actually wrong if they say the Newcastle tickets should be 22 or 27 GBP. It depends on what you believe in terms of where we are now, what the future holds ( which no-one knows), and what your personal risk profile is
Clearly like everyone else I have a view of what we should do going forward, but in the interest of trying to make this factual view of the numbers I won't be the first to comment
This email is long enough but happy to answer any questions. For some of the more detailed numbers (. salaries etc 2017 & 18) , I have added a link at the bottom
1 question I would like to know is what "Admin" includes as it is a large amount & has increased. If I have this info I could probably do a better analysis but at this stage I have assumed it is part of normal business
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/wfryK
[Post edited 28 Dec 2019 13:35]
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 12:52 - Jan 3 with 2181 views | TalkingSutty |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 09:51 - Jan 3 by Nigeriamark |
In a roundabout way we are probably saying the same thing. I talked about 2 types of profit in my original post
1. Profit on Normal operations ( I.e the day to day income and expenditure) - also called general health check of a company
2. Total profit ( The above + Transfers and TV money etc)
Most businesses in markets similar to ours ( not just football) have to make the first at least break even as they don't have many upsides. However football teams like us do. I agree we should run the normal business at a loss because over a number of years we should get some prize money, transfers or TV money. You mentioned yourself that you had heard of a sum of 400k per year in losses. I would agree with that, but in YE 2017 it was almost 970k and in 2018 it was 1.74m which is quite a jump. That is over 100k per month over the last 2 years ( and I don't think YE 2018 will be that much different but we will know for certain in 3 months)
This increase in losses in 2018 means quite simply that no matter how well we have done in the transfer market before, we now have to do even better moving forward because in just 1 year we have added over 800k in normal expenditure.
With assets of 2.6m it would only take 2 years of low transfer activity and lack of TV money to put us into the Bury situation. That is too marginal for me but may be OK for you. There are no wrong or right answers here, it just depends on your appetite for risk. I agree we should be taking some risk but the 2018 numbers look to be too high risk, and some salary cuts are not going to make that up unless it is literally half the squad
Good debate though
PS - The numbers I quote above are in the statement that I posted the link to, I haven't made them up. The total profit numbers are the last line on page 8, The exceptional items ( I have taken transfers, TV money, Prize money) are on page 18, although you have to separate them out from other items. To get to the profit of normal operations you have to deduct the numbers on page 18 from the numbers on page 8 for the 2 years the data is available [Post edited 3 Jan 2020 9:57]
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I think we are saying the same thing, it’s a difficult juggling act and balancing the finances is very hit and miss. If the Club was run like a normal business then we would probably struggle to survive in L2 but Football Clubs don’t operate like normal businesses, there can big rewards if you take a risk and any outlay can be recouped very quickly with profit. There has to be a calculated risk and an acceptance that some seasons we won’t sell a player or generate Cup monies but then the year after we will do well and that will even the finances up a little. There are not many seasons when we don’t sell a player or two. Not investing in the first team means very quickly you have no saleable assets, so you have to keep recycling the first team in the hope of finding a gem, we’ve been very successful at doing that. I don’t mean bringing kids in from the youth team,they are a extra bonus.
Norman Smurthwaite at Port Vale came up with a novel idea, stop recruiting senior players and just replace them with kids from the youth team and pay them £350 a week, they bombed straight out of L1 and nearly went out of the Football league, half of their fans stopped attending games and the Club almost folded,it was on its knees. By all means introduce a few youth players if they are capable but the key is to keep recycling a portion of the team and replacing them with senior players who are capable of playing at the required level and then hopefully being sold on for a profit. If the current Boardroom think they can run the Club like a ‘normal’ business without an element of loss/ debt, then I think they could but I’d be surprised if we remained in the Football League. Past Chairman and Directors have shown the way forward, the blueprint works a treat but you have to be prepared to walk a financial tightrope from time to time and speculate to accumulate within reason. |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 13:56 - Jan 3 with 2086 views | RaymondJohn |
It was not a free draw for agents . It was a agents bonus " a sum of money added to a persons wage as a reward for good performance above and beyond regular task "
The problem was it had become just a your turn next week type of thing whilst using the members money Collected in all weathers just to give away ? |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 14:02 - Jan 3 with 2066 views | TalkingSutty |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 13:56 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
It was not a free draw for agents . It was a agents bonus " a sum of money added to a persons wage as a reward for good performance above and beyond regular task "
The problem was it had become just a your turn next week type of thing whilst using the members money Collected in all weathers just to give away ? |
Raymond...you forgot to take your medication again! | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements (n/t) on 14:16 - Jan 3 with 2031 views | TalkingSutty |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 13:56 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
It was not a free draw for agents . It was a agents bonus " a sum of money added to a persons wage as a reward for good performance above and beyond regular task "
The problem was it had become just a your turn next week type of thing whilst using the members money Collected in all weathers just to give away ? |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 16:06 - Jan 3 with 1957 views | 442Dale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 13:56 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
It was not a free draw for agents . It was a agents bonus " a sum of money added to a persons wage as a reward for good performance above and beyond regular task "
The problem was it had become just a your turn next week type of thing whilst using the members money Collected in all weathers just to give away ? |
It wasn’t an agents draw? |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:07 - Jan 3 with 1867 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 13:56 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
It was not a free draw for agents . It was a agents bonus " a sum of money added to a persons wage as a reward for good performance above and beyond regular task "
The problem was it had become just a your turn next week type of thing whilst using the members money Collected in all weathers just to give away ? |
Mere semantics. The point being made on a thread about club financials is that £1040 per annum is being saved instead of paying it to agents.
Such petty savings ring alarm bells. |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:38 - Jan 3 with 1816 views | RaymondJohn |
who exactly in the club decided on this saving Judd??
Before we jump on th DB wagon it was NOT him | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:40 - Jan 3 with 1809 views | dawlishdale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:38 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
who exactly in the club decided on this saving Judd??
Before we jump on th DB wagon it was NOT him |
Who decided to re-vamp the Golden Gamble? I know a couple of ticket sellers, and they both report much lower sales this year. | | | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:40 - Jan 3 with 1809 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:38 - Jan 3 by RaymondJohn |
who exactly in the club decided on this saving Judd??
Before we jump on th DB wagon it was NOT him |
The letter came from the board of directors Ray. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:51 - Jan 3 with 1768 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:07 - Jan 3 by judd |
Mere semantics. The point being made on a thread about club financials is that £1040 per annum is being saved instead of paying it to agents.
Such petty savings ring alarm bells. |
Makes me wonder Judd if this is all down to KH overspending and maybe a settlement being made on his alleged 10% of sell on fees! Some of which we know and some we may not.
Have we had to settle the Dawson/Hogan/Cannon etc deals with Hill in order to get arrange a mutual settlement and is the cost the reason CD ended up going, all his hard work over the years going in a payment to hill - it will come out eventually and maybe that is why we are short term skint, having to pay hill and beech over a million up front to get rid.
I am only guessing and hill would have got his rumoured 10% anyway so maybe it’s just short term cash flow having to get him out! |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 19:00 - Jan 3 with 1742 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 18:51 - Jan 3 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Makes me wonder Judd if this is all down to KH overspending and maybe a settlement being made on his alleged 10% of sell on fees! Some of which we know and some we may not.
Have we had to settle the Dawson/Hogan/Cannon etc deals with Hill in order to get arrange a mutual settlement and is the cost the reason CD ended up going, all his hard work over the years going in a payment to hill - it will come out eventually and maybe that is why we are short term skint, having to pay hill and beech over a million up front to get rid.
I am only guessing and hill would have got his rumoured 10% anyway so maybe it’s just short term cash flow having to get him out! |
I do not think Hill cost us beyond being paid his monthly salary until he took another job. I have no confirmation of this, it is based on reading up on other managers contracts and how termination is dealt with.
The letter from the board of directors mentions economy or efficiency savings (words to that effect) throughout the club. I would be interested to know if we have cut back on complimentary tickets and entertaining of guests. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:13 - Jan 3 with 1646 views | judd |
It would be interesting to know what the pitch has cost us these past couple of seasons. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:18 - Jan 3 with 2379 views | boromat |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:13 - Jan 3 by judd |
It would be interesting to know what the pitch has cost us these past couple of seasons. |
I do think at times maybe we try and do the pitch on the cheap and it's backfired. Not this season yet touch wood. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:32 - Jan 3 with 2340 views | tony_roch975 |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:13 - Jan 3 by judd |
It would be interesting to know what the pitch has cost us these past couple of seasons. |
According to the Accounts - YE 2018: £205, 660 YE 2017: £163,544 | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:50 - Jan 3 with 2311 views | RAFCBLUE |
Bump.
It would be good to know how to submit a question if you could not be there in person.
It was noted in another thread that the Exiles newsletter now that this will be shown live on IFollow so is that clearly confirmed even though not announced by Trust or club? |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:52 - Jan 3 with 2302 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:32 - Jan 3 by tony_roch975 |
According to the Accounts - YE 2018: £205, 660 YE 2017: £163,544 |
Cheers, and the latest season cost would be useful too. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:55 - Jan 3 with 2292 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:18 - Jan 3 by boromat |
I do think at times maybe we try and do the pitch on the cheap and it's backfired. Not this season yet touch wood. |
Full pitch replacement booked for this summer, drains everything |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:57 - Jan 3 with 2283 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:55 - Jan 3 by rochdaleriddler |
Full pitch replacement booked for this summer, drains everything |
...including the bank account? | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:05 - Jan 3 with 2278 views | 442Dale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:50 - Jan 3 by RAFCBLUE |
Bump.
It would be good to know how to submit a question if you could not be there in person.
It was noted in another thread that the Exiles newsletter now that this will be shown live on IFollow so is that clearly confirmed even though not announced by Trust or club? |
It was in the Trust newsletter to all members:
<<“The forum will be held on Monday 13th January, and as always, entry will be free of charge to all supporters. The event will be broadcast on iFollow.”>>
As mentioned previously, a request has been made that this is then made available after the forum on the OS as a freeview video (as we’ve seen before with interviews which has been really good) or on the club’s YouTube page. The request has noted that there should be no issues around this being in the public domain in such a format as the club have the opportunity with their presentation to tell supporters present what the current direction/plans are, therefore it should be something those who can’t attend can access too.
Really do believe that we need to think of everyone when it comes to information about our football club. It will help remove doubt and hearsay, encourage a greater understanding amongst us all of the issues we face going forward and bring us nearer a situation where fans and the club are singing from the same hymn sheet. Something we should all be striving for. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 12:22 - Jan 4 with 2123 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:05 - Jan 3 by 442Dale |
It was in the Trust newsletter to all members:
<<“The forum will be held on Monday 13th January, and as always, entry will be free of charge to all supporters. The event will be broadcast on iFollow.”>>
As mentioned previously, a request has been made that this is then made available after the forum on the OS as a freeview video (as we’ve seen before with interviews which has been really good) or on the club’s YouTube page. The request has noted that there should be no issues around this being in the public domain in such a format as the club have the opportunity with their presentation to tell supporters present what the current direction/plans are, therefore it should be something those who can’t attend can access too.
Really do believe that we need to think of everyone when it comes to information about our football club. It will help remove doubt and hearsay, encourage a greater understanding amongst us all of the issues we face going forward and bring us nearer a situation where fans and the club are singing from the same hymn sheet. Something we should all be striving for. |
Thanks 442.
Outside of this board; there is very little publicity for it; including an announced start time.
With a Trust membership of only circa 700 there are wider ways of reaching people; perhaps an announcement at half-time today to 8,000 people could be/have been considered.
Regarding the finances, the Chief Exec has just said, live on BT Sport:
"People used to say that a game like today would set you up for two or three years but the reality is that this will only be two or three months."
He did publicly thank Hill for the work over the last six years; but beamoned the financial side, saying that we are competing on 3,700 and that's not sustainable.
He's just had the opportunity to tell the whole world what a world class, well run club Rochdale is at League 1 level to a worldwide audience and what a great chance today was to showcase the club. He didn't.
Rachel Brown-Finnis has been the best promoter of us mentioning the Spurs and Man United performances and not once playing the "little old Rochdale" tag.
bury even got a mention! [Post edited 4 Jan 2020 12:25]
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 15:02 - Jan 11 with 1985 views | RAFCBLUE |
Perhaps the Board, when announcing Olly Rathbone's departure AND confirming a revised date for their cancelled forum could state openly the financial position of the club is sound.
iFollow say that Rathbone is injured after a knock in training so for us to sell an injured player for such a sum will be quite a feat. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 05:03 - Feb 12 with 1756 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 23:05 - Jan 2 by judd |
But what has changed in our model that was heralded by so many other clubs? That is the nub. |
“ But what has changed in our model that was heralded by so many other clubs? That is the nub.”
What do you make of last season’s £1.2m loss judd? | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:46 - Feb 12 with 1560 views | tony_roch975 |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 05:03 - Feb 12 by RAFCBLUE |
“ But what has changed in our model that was heralded by so many other clubs? That is the nub.”
What do you make of last season’s £1.2m loss judd? |
confidentiality was requested | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:50 - Feb 12 with 1550 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:46 - Feb 12 by tony_roch975 |
confidentiality was requested |
The accounts are in the public domain.
There is an additional set that contains information not required statutorily that are sent to shareholders.
What do I think? Disappointing that we have lost £1.5m in 2 years and thank fook the Board had squirelled away a few quid to fund losses of that magnitude over the preceding 8 years or so. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:59 - Feb 12 with 1526 views | 442Dale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:46 - Feb 12 by tony_roch975 |
confidentiality was requested |
As well as the accounts being available in public, as seen by the twitter post that starts the other thread, we have an assurance that the forum was delayed which “would then allow the club to discuss the end of year accounts for the 2018-19 season giving a more transparent picture of the club in the process.”
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2020/01/fans-forum-postponed/
“discuss end of year accounts” and “more transparent picture of the club”. We can only go off what we have been told. [Post edited 12 Feb 2020 22:02]
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