| In defence of Keith Hill 09:51 - Jan 2 with 10287 views | ColDale |
The Donny game was inexcusable, and for me KH was to blame for that one game more than he has been for any game in either spell in charge. It was up there with the hammering we had at home to Stevenage during Chris Beech's time as caretaker, and we were sitting ducks from the first minute. Had it been 7 or 8, I doubt we could really have offered any complaints.
We are in a horrible position. Forget the league position and points tally for now, it's been a long while since we've had back to back hammerings like this, and you can easily see why so many fans are feeling the way they are doing. It's out of order to question loyalty or sanity of those offering criticism.
But I'm still firmly in the belief that there is no better manager out there than Keith Hill to transform the future of this football team.
I've alluded to a few times that I see the transfer window as one our biggest problems. Things which were an issue in September are still an issue last week in December, and thats a long time to deal with those same problems. We're brittle and lack leadership on the pitch and throughout the season, one goal becomes two becomes three becomes four so easily.
It's been clear we are very brittle. You hit us once, and we become so vulnerable to can kill a game off there and then. That's why in my opinion, we keep conceding four goals. And opposition teams who scout will pick up on this and will report back to managers that we are a fragile team that if you come at us hard and fast and keep plugging away, you can win the game in the first half hour of a game.
And then problems exacerbate. Our youth policy is brilliant and rightly the envy of the lower leagues. But the team at Donny was packed out with kids, and they're the wrong players to be in there at this moment. We looked a bunch of frightened rabbits yesterday, devoid of any confidence whatsoever, and its been a long time since I've seen a Dale side play in way which looks like they didn't want to be there. As a fan, I don't recall back to back games where I've been desperate for the final whistle as much I have in the last two games.
Where was the leadership? With the honourable exception of Henderson who leads by example rather than as your traditional captain, it's nowhere to be seen. You could argue that our only other senior pro out there yesterday in the starting line up was Matty Done. Him and Hendo aside, you're looking at a set of players between 17 and 23. Many are experienced in terms of appearances but that's not to say that they are capable in terms of responsibility.
So why stick with Hilly if many of the problems are of his own making?
Well, historically, he has got a proven track record of assembling sides that are good enough to compete at every level. We know this side needs sorting out, and I'm confident that Hilly can do this. Bringing in a new manager would bring a financial strain that would diminish any ability to make necessary changes. I don't look at our current squad as one who are being mismanaged that just need a new boss to bring out the best in them. We need changes and new recruits to bring the best out of them.We need big characters of the likes of Stephen Dawson or Peter Clarke (not suggesting either as possible signings) who will help to bring out the best in the younger players who are finding things tough. The likes of Camps, Inman, Adshead will only benefit from someone else alongside taking on board that responsibility.
Well for me it's clear that there is a real intention to sort things out. Yesterday was a case of short term pain for long term gain, and the seemingly imminent departure of Perkins is an admittance of getting things wrong and doing something about it. We're not a club who bathes in gold so if the plan is to change things up, we have to start that process by freeing up wages where we can. If Perkins goes, it's not to save a few bob, but to use those wages elsewhere and the speed with which this is happening in this transfer window suggests that wheels are in motion.
Same with Lillis. We all know Lillis is better than Norman and Moore, but yesterday's team selection suggested to me that he wants a new keeper, and perhaps the only way that can happen is with the departure of Lillis. Will he play again for us? Possibly not (but nothing will surprise me with the keepers this season), but it strikes me that its an attempt to offload Lillis to free up wages to bring in a replacement. Lillis deserves better than this but changes are needed.
Hilly deserves the right to try and sort out the problems even if that is at the expense of relegation. We are not one of those clubs who sacks managers at a whim. Bury have had 8 managers and Oldham have had 12 managers during Hill's time in charge. Meaningless to our situation to an extent but it shows as we all know that the constant turnaround of managers is not a route to success. The football world has this culture of sacking when things go wrong, but we're different, and we need to give Keith Hill the opportunity to make things right. Whether thats down to previous successes by him earning that right, whether its from a belief in Hill's abilities or whether its just because its the better way to run a football club, we have to stick by KH and allow him to put things right.
Hill has to do things differently in these next few months, and he'd benefit greatly for someone to sit him down and have a word with him. One of the things I've loved about Hilly over the years is that he does things his own way. He'll be openly honest in his interviews, even if its too honest at times, but I much prefer that approach to the cliché filled bollócks that some managers come out with, tickling the egos of the supporters. At the moment, he has lost the support of a large number of our supporters and he has to do things to get them back on board.
That honesty needs to include more honesty about the squad. I've been convinced for a long while that the lack of info about injuries is KH following the Dave Brailsford marginal gains approach. That being if you can improve everything by 1%, the overall gain will be significant. Not informing fans that (for example) Joe Rafferty is injured and can't play at Donny might have little impact in that fixture but over the course of a season, withholding that information might just lead to us getting an extra point somewhere along the line. And how many points did we stay up by last season?
But the downside is a growing disconnect which creates its own problems. It fuels the rumour mill, leading to false stories, and more sticks to beat the management with. I don't want to be talking out of turn, but you take a player like Zac Clough who's never been fit during his time with the club through no fault of anyone. But the lack of info has lead to suggestions of fallings out, favouritism of other players etc none of which are true.
This openness is not the KH way of doing things for that Brailsford philosophy I alluded to, but he's in new territory at the moment in terms of losing the support of the fanbase which brings its own problems in itself. The reaction to Norman's blunder yesterday wasn't a reaction to the blunder itself but more to the ongoing goalkeeping changes. An identical error by Lillis would not have seen the same reaction but fans are fed up with seeing change after change after change. He needs to on rebuilding that faith in supporters. Traditionally, winning matches is all that it would take but there's more needed.
He's capable of doing it. He's more than capable of doing so. it might be outside his comfort zone and not the way he wants to do things,but it would reckless to just go on doing what he is doing and expecting things to be different.
I do think there's an element of realism that's needed amongst the supporters that can help. The top ten finishes mean little to our current squad. We went into this season as a 20th placed team capable of 51 points, and on the basis of this season, we've shown signs of improvement on last season. The aim as of now is safety and we need 21 points from 20 games to do so, a not unreasonable task. Last year was not a blip so we should not look upon things as being a return to the top ten, but rather looking towards progress more towards half way. That's not a lack of ambition, it the reality of the now.
We are a side that are capable of winning matches. The wins against Southend and Blackpool weren't undeserved. As is stands, we are a side that can grind out wins and then take a battering the week later as demonstrated between Xmas and New Year. With the right changes, we should be capable of getting the five or six wins we need from the twenty games to stay up. I'd like to think with the right changes, we can get things back on track to get those points to stay up. The upheaval of a change at this stage and recruitment of someone unaware of our strengths and weaknesses could put all of that in jeopardy. Sacking KH now could take 3 or 4 matches to recruit a replacement leaving a limited amount of time for a new fella to analyse and recruit. At least with sticking by KH, that process is already up and running.
I don't blame any supporter for feeling the way they do, especially those who've endured both the Bradford and Doncaster games, and no one could deny that changes are needed but I don't believe that change is the manager. Give the man who has brought us more success than every other manager in our history put together the opportunity to make the changes he's not had chance to do over the past four months. |  | | |  |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:30 - Jan 2 with 2485 views | windowsbug |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:07 - Jan 2 by soulboy |
Dont talk wet. |
Why not?
Can you give a reason to what's happening at this club. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:32 - Jan 2 with 2475 views | judd |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:30 - Jan 2 by windowsbug |
Why not?
Can you give a reason to what's happening at this club. |
Bentrance. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:47 - Jan 2 with 2404 views | D_Alien |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:52 - Jan 2 by tony_roch975 |
We weren't - ask DAlien (who's defended Perkins through thick & thin), a number of us were highly critical of those 2 signings. |
It's true, i've seen plenty in Perkins play which would've been positive in a settled side playing with confidence. I think Col has made the same point elsewhere, and i stand by it
But as things stand, for his own good as well as ours, a move to a side on the up like Tranmere would be for the best. His replacement needs to have more physicality in front of the defence
References to a bust-up with the manager won't have helped him, and he also seemed at loggerheads with Hendo earlier in the season. He's a combative bugger who never shirks his task (perhaps that's why i like him) but perhaps also he could see the way the Dale wind was blowing and realised he'd made a mistake. Time to move on...
[Post edited 2 Jan 2019 12:57]
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:52 - Jan 2 with 2370 views | soulboy |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:30 - Jan 2 by windowsbug |
Why not?
Can you give a reason to what's happening at this club. |
If KH is tring to get himself sacked in order to get a pay off, wouldnt he have picked a well below strength team for the games we have won recently? I have no idea what is happening behind the scenes at the club, but as pointed out on another post, unity is what is needed now. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 13:31 - Jan 2 with 2256 views | rochdaleriddler |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:45 - Jan 2 by boromat |
I'm on board with your points Col.
The experienced players point is the main one for me and Keith thought he'd done the business in the summer that would plug that hole in Perkins and Wilbraham and we were all pretty happy about those signings. Unfortunately they've not worked out and Keith only now in January can start to work to improve the situation. I'm sure if he can we'll see some experience come in the problem is what quality will we get for our budget in a January transfer window? We shall see. |
I wasn’t , I was taken to task because I thought they were too old, experienced players for me are in the 27-34 age range, with us only signing those at the top of that band if they are exceptional |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 13:50 - Jan 2 with 2213 views | Frog |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:30 - Jan 2 by windowsbug |
Has no one thought that Hill wants to get sacked, take the huge pay off and go to do other things. |
No, he could be made to work his notice and someone else can "manage" the team. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 14:41 - Jan 2 with 2075 views | Will_RAFC |
I fear we are seeing the beginning of what will be an uncomfortable end.
I simply don't look forward to matches anymore. I even cried off yesterday, although I'm under the weather, I used to go no matter what. That includes personal health, wealth, league position, form, opposition. I did watch on iFollow, which was bad enough.
The line up yesterday was completely unacceptable and an insult to all connected to the club. A third choice goalkeeper. A former striker turned left back playing defensive centre midfield. An attacking midfielder up front and a bunch of kids hung out to dry. And a manager that refuses to accept any blame for the shocking set up of the team.
His treatment of Josh Lillis has been appalling. Lillis is statistically our best ever goalkeeper. We all know his faults, but he is unquestionably the best of the 3 goalkeepers at the club. To be dropped after the bobble incident was a joke. Lillis has been just a good a servant to this club as Iain Henderson, yet I don't see Hendo dropped if he misses an open goal (nor am I asking for that, obviously). No wonder the keepers keep making mistakes, under the extreme pressure put on them that one fault costs them their place.
Defensive problems, where do you even start. We've been conceding the exact same goals for over 18 months. I can only think we look great at defending set pieces in training as we are only defending against our own pathetic crosses.
Henderson isn't a captain. A great player, a great pro, but not in any way a leader on the field. We desperately need that sort of presence at centre half or midfield.
The Bradford game showed us up for what we are, a weak side who roll over when we get tickled. I don't care if we are playing Bradford or Barcelona, to not match the oppositions effort or energy is completely unacceptable.
Get back to basics. No more players out of position. Play to our strengths. Get rid of the deadwood. Stop the vendettas and play the best 11 available.
In reality we are punching above our weight, and that is largely down to Keith, and I'm very greatful for that and the memories along the way. I'm not calling for him to be sacked as he deserves to see the season out and asses from there. But I feel he's become too arragant to change and has dug himself too many holes. His repeated digs at the fans even when times were good will now come back to bite him harder than they should, but like most of our problems this and last season, that's his own fault. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 14:42 - Jan 2 with 2073 views | RAFCBLUE |
It's a great post Col.
We've lost all that off pitch leadership too.
We had a chief exec who was here for 10 years the one that followed him here for 3 and the onto a consultant and now David Bottomley.
We had a chairman for 10 years who has recently departed.
Change is everywhere and it can be unsettling.
In time of change you need sensible heads and the one constant that currently remains is the manager. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 15:14 - Jan 2 with 2000 views | durbandale |
Have to say a great post from Col.
He obviously has a great insight into whats happening/been happening at Spotland.
The pre season signings and a few of the loans were spectacularly poor and expensive to the club in all respects. Wilbraham and Perkins - what did we expect !!
I recall England goalies Tim Flowers at Blackburn having a disastrous bounce in their Premiership winning year. Paul Robinson from Gary Nevilles back pass for England too.
Things happen, don't beleive Josh Lillis's miscue should have resulted in him being banished to the sidelines so we can endure the Moore/Norman poorer performances and just accept them.
Stephen Humphrys knew the setup from last year and may have been a better option.
Anyhow Col , your precis of the situation was great and I think you would make a better, currently more astute manager than the present incumbent.
It would be utterly demoralising to be relegated but the wheels seem to have fallen off.
The board seems to have disintegrated to a large degree and is Pastor Keith leading them
all on ?
Lets hope we are still in Divi 1 next season.
Have a Great New Year All. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 15:25 - Jan 2 with 1942 views | durbandale |
Just read Will - RAFC post and I fully echo his feelings/comments.
Spot on to my thoughts but put better. | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:59 - Jan 2 with 1773 views | ChaffRAFC |
The transfer window issue is one I agree with in that Hill seems unable to deal with it but as TVOS says, it's the same for everyone else so why does it affect us so much and nobody else?
My main issue is that we've been stating these mistakes for a good while now with zero progress being made to learn from them.
I said it elsewhere but the team selection yesterday smacked of being a message to the board saying, let me shift some out but back me in bringing players in. Morley and Adshead were thrown under the bus yesterday and it was sad to see.
Sacking Hill isn't an option either unfortunately as we're not in any position to pay up that sort of money it would require but like Col says, you can't blame fans for being sick of it. God knows I am!
The lack of info given on injuries etc is a very valid point as well Col but it's one we've been saying for over two years and it's purely down to him not feeling we need to know. We've said for ages the flip side of that is unnecessary speculation.
January will see major changes squad wise, it needs to. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:08 - Jan 2 with 1743 views | D_Alien |
There's a simple point to be made about our dealings in transfer windows - our budget almost certainly means we're towards the end of the queue for players and their agents who're looking for a move, or being moved on | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:20 - Jan 2 with 1700 views | DaleiLama |
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
Everything seemed to be going so right, but now there seems to me to be as many concerns as there were reasons to be cheerful. Hmmmm. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:23 - Jan 2 with 1682 views | D_Alien |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:20 - Jan 2 by DaleiLama |
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
Everything seemed to be going so right, but now there seems to me to be as many concerns as there were reasons to be cheerful. Hmmmm. |
Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away...
Dickens and McCartney would've made a great pop combo | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:27 - Jan 2 with 1660 views | DaleiLama |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:08 - Jan 2 by D_Alien |
There's a simple point to be made about our dealings in transfer windows - our budget almost certainly means we're towards the end of the queue for players and their agents who're looking for a move, or being moved on |
Our league position and form isn't exactly putting anyone looking to springboard to better things in the front and centre of any shop window either. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:34 - Jan 2 with 1636 views | TVOS1907 |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:23 - Jan 2 by D_Alien |
Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away...
Dickens and McCartney would've made a great pop combo |
As long as Dickins isn't coming back as a goalkeeper... |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:44 - Jan 2 with 1591 views | DaleiLama |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 17:34 - Jan 2 by TVOS1907 |
As long as Dickins isn't coming back as a goalkeeper... |
Wouldn't mind Lennon in attack. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 18:11 - Jan 2 with 1553 views | YouTubeDale |
I think most people would agree that if Keith changes his ways then there is no need to change manager and that would be the cheapest option and one with the least risk.
He needs to teach man-marking in our box but needs defenders who can head the ball and challenge the attackers. Yesterday that scenario appeared with 3 of their goals. I have argued that Andrew would be very useful in this role, but surely Keith can get defenders in who can challenge properly in the air.
We need to change fundamentally what we are doing in training because what is being worked on at the moment isn’t working. Can we put a ball on our striker’s head with precision like the 3 headed goals yesterday, and then can our strikers head it into the net in the same way?
Keeping Lillis in net should be the way forward without tinkering.
Yesterday you could clearly see the lack of confidence from the players very early in the match. There was little self-belief, and I have never witnessed that before in a Dale side. A good part of that was too much youth in the side, as already noted. For now Keith needs to steer away from the Youth and added to that, I agree, we need to find a leader.
All the above are fixable, I am not saying easy, but Keith needs to change his ways very quickly during this transfer window.
We are in a state of emergency, Keith needs to adopt a siege mentality and pump up the troops to max. There’s no need to panic but a sense of urgency is needed by getting the right players in and out. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 20:04 - Jan 2 with 1410 views | dale_spotland |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:59 - Jan 2 by ChaffRAFC |
The transfer window issue is one I agree with in that Hill seems unable to deal with it but as TVOS says, it's the same for everyone else so why does it affect us so much and nobody else?
My main issue is that we've been stating these mistakes for a good while now with zero progress being made to learn from them.
I said it elsewhere but the team selection yesterday smacked of being a message to the board saying, let me shift some out but back me in bringing players in. Morley and Adshead were thrown under the bus yesterday and it was sad to see.
Sacking Hill isn't an option either unfortunately as we're not in any position to pay up that sort of money it would require but like Col says, you can't blame fans for being sick of it. God knows I am!
The lack of info given on injuries etc is a very valid point as well Col but it's one we've been saying for over two years and it's purely down to him not feeling we need to know. We've said for ages the flip side of that is unnecessary speculation.
January will see major changes squad wise, it needs to. |
I’ve seen many people say we can’t afford to sack Hill, and tbh I find it crazy that any football club would give a manager a deal they can’t afford to get out of, even us with Hill. I refuse to believe we can’t afford to sack him.
I’m at the stage where I probably dont want him sacked, but if he was sacked tomorrow I would probably be relieved and sad in equal measure. |  |
| Days like this one weren't supposed to happen to Rochdale. |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 15:24 - Jan 3 with 1150 views | ParkinsGimp |
I thought it read Keith Hill in defence.... he was a good centre half and LB at Plymouth was it when Parkin surrendered any chance of getting in the play off. So why cant we defend? ,
anyway , I cant see how you can defend the indefensible. Does anyone really think he is going to change. The players leaving are the good ones , not the crap like Andrew, mcNulty , Delaney, Inman , Williams et al I think its gone too far. Its sad since Hill has been our most successful manager but his ego and arrogance have taken over and its destroying him and us. | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:06 - Jan 3 with 1055 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
I agree with most of what you say Col. The problem is the wins against Blackpool and Southend only papered over the cracks. We were awful v Blackpool, especially as they were down to 10 men for more than an hour. We have managed 3 shots on target in the last 2 games. We managed 4 at Southend where fortunately 2 went in. We don`t create enough and we ship too many goals and that is a recipe for disaster. I`m not a fan of McNulty but we seem to do better with him in, yet a midfielder in defence seems to be a better option to the manager. Too many players are played out of position and too many of our better players are being forced out of the club, because the manager has to protect his ego. Until he realises he isn`t the be all and end all, Keith Hill will not solve the many problems he has before him. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:11 - Jan 3 with 1030 views | sweetcorn |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:06 - Jan 3 by RooleyMoorBlue |
I agree with most of what you say Col. The problem is the wins against Blackpool and Southend only papered over the cracks. We were awful v Blackpool, especially as they were down to 10 men for more than an hour. We have managed 3 shots on target in the last 2 games. We managed 4 at Southend where fortunately 2 went in. We don`t create enough and we ship too many goals and that is a recipe for disaster. I`m not a fan of McNulty but we seem to do better with him in, yet a midfielder in defence seems to be a better option to the manager. Too many players are played out of position and too many of our better players are being forced out of the club, because the manager has to protect his ego. Until he realises he isn`t the be all and end all, Keith Hill will not solve the many problems he has before him. |
Awful against blackpool? We were camped in there half and constantly attacking in that second half, their keeper made 3 brilliant saves which he had no right to make.
I’ve not issue with slagging off the other performances, but blackpool definitely wasnt a bad one.. |  |
| Leader of the little gang of immature cretins. |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:14 - Jan 3 with 1014 views | TVOS1907 |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:06 - Jan 3 by RooleyMoorBlue |
I agree with most of what you say Col. The problem is the wins against Blackpool and Southend only papered over the cracks. We were awful v Blackpool, especially as they were down to 10 men for more than an hour. We have managed 3 shots on target in the last 2 games. We managed 4 at Southend where fortunately 2 went in. We don`t create enough and we ship too many goals and that is a recipe for disaster. I`m not a fan of McNulty but we seem to do better with him in, yet a midfielder in defence seems to be a better option to the manager. Too many players are played out of position and too many of our better players are being forced out of the club, because the manager has to protect his ego. Until he realises he isn`t the be all and end all, Keith Hill will not solve the many problems he has before him. |
That's a bit harsh on the Blackpool and Southend games.
We were deserved winners at Southend - which in itself are words you don't often hear in the same sentence - while the Blackpool win was achieved against a side camped in their own penalty area for most of the game and we eventually managed to pick a way through that rearguard.
By all means other games recently have been dreadful, but the two wins were, in my opinion, merited. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:21 - Jan 3 with 965 views | SuddenLad |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:14 - Jan 3 by TVOS1907 |
That's a bit harsh on the Blackpool and Southend games.
We were deserved winners at Southend - which in itself are words you don't often hear in the same sentence - while the Blackpool win was achieved against a side camped in their own penalty area for most of the game and we eventually managed to pick a way through that rearguard.
By all means other games recently have been dreadful, but the two wins were, in my opinion, merited. |
Indeed. Let's not turn the current situation into a 'slagging fest' simply because we're having a rough ride. Credit where it's due. Those 6 points were well earned.
I'm sure there is still plenty to be optimistic about despite the current state of play. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:29 - Jan 3 with 921 views | RooleyMoorBlue |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 16:11 - Jan 3 by sweetcorn |
Awful against blackpool? We were camped in there half and constantly attacking in that second half, their keeper made 3 brilliant saves which he had no right to make.
I’ve not issue with slagging off the other performances, but blackpool definitely wasnt a bad one.. |
Badly worded, awful considering they were down to 10 men. Yes we were camped in their half and yes their keeper made 3 good saves, but we were fannying around the penalty area for long periods creating absolutely nothing. You say Blackpool wasn`t a bad performance, are you saying it was a good one? Genuine question. | | | |
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