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Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 11:32 - Nov 28 with 3053 views

I wasn't looking forward to this game. I was convinced we'd lose 2-0. I didn't particularly want to go. I felt like leaving early (but didn't). But every now and again you need a game like this, amidst all the drudgery, to remind you why you fell in love with football. I don't believe any of us fell in love with it because of patterns of play or style or clever tactical nuances. All those things are lovely, don't get me wrong. But I suspect we all fell in love with this: the complete, total, bonkers, unpredictability of the sport. Unlikely comebacks, great thrashings, fights, red cards, unfair penalties, scoring direct from corners, smash and grab efforts. As a kid, you may have loved Disney, or Star Wars. As an adult, you may prefer something a little smarter, a little deeper. But every now and again, you can re-watch those classics and realise they're pretty good films too. And for a few minutes last night, I was lost in baffled joy at a most unlikely scenario, the ludicrousness of that late comeback. And I couldn't give a fk if it 'papered over the cracks' - it was fun.

1. KARMA'S A BITCH: During the match, the Brentford fans sang eloquently about Jake Bidwell being a c**t for the heinous crime of earning their club £1m and moving somewhere to earn a little more money. Few people, as we know, are more hypocritical as football fans. It led to a conversation around me about chants we'd never chant. My friend said he'd never chant 'you're getting sacked in the morning', for example (he's nice like that). It was interesting later, then, when Brentford fans did exactly say that. And then, which seemed unwise to me even when I was positive we wouldn't score a second, they sarcastically celebrated our late consolation goal, dancing around to Pigbag, lording it over their bigger rivals. Karma's a bitch.

2. THAT SINKING FEELING: At 92 minutes I was thinking about my Jerks, and this was going to be number one. That sinking feeling was back. The same one I dismissed far too hastily on this board late last season before something approaching all-out panic ensued as the defeats racked up. Four in a row. Preston away coming up - another well-organised, very decent side up north. Four would become five. Leeds at home. Five would become six. How many could Holloway stand before he'd have to go? Six? Seven? Eight? Even allowing for the injury list?

I looked at the team and all the potential I saw after the Wolves and Sheffield Utd results seemed to have melted away. We can't score, we can't pass very well, we can't keep clean sheets. Scowongoman can't be relied on to carry the team every single week. Even if Onuoha and Perch came back soon (Hall apparently a write-off for the season), while that might help us concede a few less, we're still not scoring. It was more like how I felt at the start of the season - I'd be happy to get out of this season still in the same division.

But then came the miracle. And perhaps, maybe, that might restore a bit of faith and belief and with faith and belief comes confidence, the willingness to take risks, a surety in how to play the game, rather than a desperation. The bastard hope. Guess we'll find out at Preston.

3. NEVER LEAVE EARLY: I never do, as I said. If I did, off the top of my head, I'd have missed that wonderful last minute goal by Ishmael Miller against Leicester. Gareth Ainsworth's last gasp of brilliance to help peg Preston back to 2-2 in a very similar comeback to this one. The Liverpool 3-2. Furlong's final goal for us in the last minute to snatch a 3-2 win against Luton. Cisse's house-bringer-downer against Stoke. Furlong again with a 90th minute winner at home to Leicester after being two goals down. Matt Smith's equaliser this season against Millwall. Port Vale away. Stockport away.

It's worth it. Every single minute I've sat through of inevitable, frustrating, ball-achingly terrible defeats, I stayed because... well, you just do. To support? Maybe for some just to boo at the end. In hope? I suppose. Sometimes. Sometimes it feels like something might happen. Last night it didn't. I didn't move when Smith scored. I rolled my eyes at the Brentford fans celebrating. But also rolled my eyes a little at our players running back to the halfway line, as if there was time for an equaliser. But 100 games of no late comebacks are worth it for just one unlikely comeback. 1000 games I say! All worth it.

Personally, I think Ollie has to be careful. He's an emotional man, he'd been ridiculed for 45 minutes by Brentford fans, he felt for his players who he knew had worked hard and have worked hard this season, sometimes without getting their just rewards. So I can see why he was angry and pumped with adrenaline. But with his record in the last year, he needs to be careful. He has goodwill from the majority of fans. Don't jeopardise that, because if that goes, and his pattern of results continues, he may not survive, however much he wants to fight to the death.

But I also think he's right. I saw a lot on here and on Twitter about how the result papered over the cracks and so forth. And I fully accept that Brentford were better, maybe even much better. They passed it better. They did less running, because they played sensibly and to a plan. They were quicker. Fresher. They moved the ball faster. They looked more rapid, they broke better, they played first time passes better (especially for a very good second goal). They defended better. The only area they weren't better was probably in goal. I think a few on here will have to admit the club were absolutely right to deny Southend their King's ransom and go for Smithies instead. No contest on last night's showing. And I totally accept we have a long, long way to go and Holloway probably isn't the man to ultimately get us there. But he might just be the man for now. Because he has good will and passion and belief and a work ethic that is valuable in our situation.

And I also, to come back to an earlier point, just can't see the point in being too negative after that. I really can't. Yes Brentford were better and deserved to win. But we deserved a draw v Fulham and didn't get it. Brentford's first was offside, and we were denied a penalty far more clear cut than the one that arguably cost us the game v Villa (although I did think that was a pen). This is sport. It's unpredictable. We were terrible that day up at Derby when Mackie scored that late equaliser (oh, another one I forgot you'd have missed if you had left early), but got an undeserved point and never really looked back. Celebrate it, enjoy it. Why bother going at all if you're going to shake your head and worry about pattern of play and style after that? I'm not saying that's not important, I'm not saying I don't think we could be doing better, I'm not saying we didn't play some unimaginative, ugly football last night, especially in comparison with the opposition. But for Fk's sake. When this happens, enjoy it. Why ruin it? Why be negative? I'm not a happy clapper, I sat in depression worrying about relegation for 30 minutes last night, and I still worry about that. I don't think everything is rosy, I don't think Holloway is the best manager even in the lower half of this league. But come on, if you can't enjoy this, why bother, really?

4. WASHINGTON: But of course, we have to have the negatives, because Ollie was wrong and we were not good last night. We battled, yes, we tried, yes. But it was not attractive, and we did not look dangerous until Smith panicked them. So I'm picking on Washington. I realise I'm picking on him, but there we go. I think I've lost the faith. Earlier this year when he had his run of goals and at the start of this season I thought maybe he was turning. But he's not. It's not going to happen. He has industry, flashes of decent stuff, but that's it. He doesn't play well off a big man, he's not a number 10, he's not a wide-ish forward in a front three, he can't hold it up, he's not that fast. He's not bad at any of those things, but not good enough at any of them either. But most of all, it's his movement and lack of scorer's instinct. Watching Charlie Austin at the weekend only reminded me just how special he was in that regard. Washington just isn;t there when the ball drops, he doesn't make the angles - witness Pav's run last night and him desperately looking for the cutback, but Washington hadn't made the angle. I thought he was pretty ineffective all last night, and I'd have left Sylla on and taken Washington off for Smith, because at least Sylla has that instinct to get on the end of stuff. Sylla had a quiet game, but set up two presentable chances first half and hit the bar second half. Why take him off, particularly when Washington and Mackie were huffing and puffing to no effect?

5. GOALS: And following on from that, probably our biggest problem now, perhaps even more than our makeshift defence: goals. How can we solve this? I don't know. Smith and Sylla need crosses. But for that, we need wingers. Which we have. But if we play wingers, we destroy the one thing that is working - the three man midfield (last night, it was more of a 4-4-2 and you could see how much less solid we looked in central midfield, with Woods, as usual, bossing the game against us). Washingotn doesn't score enough, Mackie has lost a bit of pace and doesan't score enough. Smith can score, but never looks effective starting games. Sylla can score, but Ollie feels he needs work horses around him (although you couldn't claim Sylla didn't chase around last night). I actually have no ideas on this, other than maybe playing a 4-3-3 with Wheeler and Pav or Bright either side of Smith or Sylla. But if Ollie doesn't find a way to solve it, I honestly think there's a chance we'll go down.

6. ROBINSON: I think you have to expect dodgy games from a player who hasn't had tons of first team football, is playing out of position and has been hammered by injuries over the last few years. He has credit in the bank despite below par performances recently. But last night I thought he was great. Showed real, Clint Hill-style grit and determination to win the ball. A couple of great tackles first half. Some towering headers second half, and even took a vicious whack on the leg at the end during a big battle after we equalised. No surprise he's been handed the armband recently, because he's clearly epitomising the spirit Ollie is looking for.

Bare bones.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 11:52 - Nov 28 with 2987 views

londonscottish

Happy clapper. LOL.

Great report, thanks.

Poll:

Do you love or hate the new Marmite ad?

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 12:10 - Nov 28 with 2937 views

bosh67

Excellent write up. Thank god someone else recognises that proper wingers aren't a dirty word. Agree on Robinson. Both he and Baptiste have been thrown in at the deep end. Neither had played much football till the start of this season. Both have worked so hard and Baptiste has often had to cover right back as well because Jordan is either on the phone to someone, readjusting his headphones or eating a pie.

Robinson is really improving and although he does make some mistakes as I have said before I am starting to see a player who has the leadership, style and ability of a great hero of mine, Glenn Roeder.

	Never knowingly right.
Poll:	How long before new signings become quivering wrecks of the players they were?

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 12:20 - Nov 28 with 2904 views

BlueandWhiteRiot

Every time Robinson plays, it puts a smile on my face. I think the older i get the more i hate the waste that can be found in modern footballers. The likes of Adel having all that talent and nothing to show for it. But it is just crawl when it is taken away through injury. I am glad he is getting games and he is also showing what skills he has. I hope he can maintain some consistency.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 12:23 - Nov 28 with 2884 views

TheChef

This Scowongoman, I assume he has a blue and white hooped cape?

Poll:

How old is everyone on here?

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 12:45 - Nov 28 with 2828 views

ozranger

Lovely as always Antti. Some comments.

2. Did you look at the fixtures? After Leeds we are away to Brum. Yes, a strange co-incidence that could have occurred. Remember we won at Brum to break up the first six-game losing streak. It would be most interesting if that and the upcoming Brum games were bookends on our away form.

4. If I may go into Olly's head for a moment, or at least attempt to. Olly chose to play against Brentford's tactics as opposed to having his own tactics and leaving it to Brentford to play against those. He chose both Mackie and Washington up front to try to stop Brentford for doing what they always do, play the ball out of the back. His thinking was that if we could hold out until midway through the second period, their backs would be more tired and bringing Smith on would create the chances for us. Brentford's backs are much smaller than other teams, that is what it looked to me. So, the effect Smith had when he entered play was quite significant as opposed to other games. Some may say, then why not have him on from the beginning? But Smith can't chase. I've been told he is getting faster, but he still turns at the pace of the Queen Mary. And so, I think, for the first part of the game, his tactics were such - try to hold out. When Smith came on, there was a straight movement to 433 with Smith flanked by the "two terriers". The idea was hopefully that a Smith knockdown would create a goalscoring chance for either Mackie or Washington. It did not, but did for Freeman at the end.

However, one problem was the midfield. It wasn't clicking as it should have. This caused us numerous problems. It just did not work with the 442 shape Olly wanted to play to create the defensive situation. It was stretched too much and although we survived in the first half, we suffered in the second. Mind you, having Mackie on the left when he has no left foot was something that really puzzled me.

3. Finally an anecdote from last night. Two people near me. One normally comes with his daughter to games, but obviously not last night. He said he'd leave at half time if we were that bad. He walked past me after the Bees second saying at least I stayed this long. The other is a keen vocalist against of our players standing up and shouting at the players on numerous occasions. He brought his missus with him this time, possibly her first time. She was not impressed, more of him than of the game. They also left before the 90th. I could only smile thinking how they attacked the team and yet missed all the fun.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 13:25 - Nov 28 with 2692 views

simmo

Excellent collection of knee jerks and as usual I agree with the vast majority.

Particularly about Olly having credit and doing well to maintain that. I said the same thing to Clive last night on the way home (via beer), Ollie has the majority but if he loses that, noises will be made me frequently and fervently. We know from experience that when that happens, Fernandes is susceptible. Holloway has to be smarter and try and keep his emotions in check.

He should definitely have acknowledged the fans leaving early as being counter productive - the players didn't give up and we shouldn't either - but the way he did it was confrontational and detracts from the positives.

ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 13:34 - Nov 28 with 2655 views

fournil

Things I couldn’t understand/ got annoyed about.
1. Have to disagree - we set up as 4-3-3 from the start, but for some inexplicable reason Sylla was playing on the right of the 3 rather than through the middle. I’m not sure i’ll Ever understand that one and it clearly didn’t work as Washington was out fought by their two big CB’s.
2. Luongo had a very poor game, but his main issue seemed to be knocking the ball too far in front of him causing him to lose it or the momentum he had. I counted this on 5!!! different occasions, which is frightening really.
3. Not being able to hit the target - seriously, shots going over is pretty poor.
4. I actually thought we had an excellent 5 minuted before they scored and 10 minutes after but we lack real ability to take a chance or carve out an opening. Have to give credit to last ditch defending as well though.
5. We then lost the plot for a significant amount of time and looked like relegation candidates and as though we were well beaten. Their second was really only a matter of time.
6. LuaLua was a total waste of space. Why dig him out then put him on? He offered nothing and took the place of potentially someone who might add something (Wheeler or Chair maybe)
7. All our opposition seem to have a player that really impacts the game (see Canos or Woods). Freeman is ours and he has the talent, why can’t he put his stamp on a game and really own and boss it?
8. Seeing a half empty stadium for a night match at Loftus Road against a local rival.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 13:42 - Nov 28 with 2615 views

enfieldargh

Thanks Anti.

I left for the 2-2 up a Derby (I did have my 15 year old daughter who Id picked up from a friend in Leeds to bring home with me nagging from half time are we going yet) I finally gave in on 90 and was immediately thanked by those around me

I thought Mass looked on 75% power and not his usual dominant self, Hopefully Australia will play friendlies against Wales & Belgium in the next batch. He did come back into things in the final 20 mins tho

Pavel. He's either lost the love or doesnt like playing to Ollys instructions. He's one of our more technically gifted players with great stamina. Dont know why others are picked ahead of him; he has been poor of late especially up at Sunderland which was his last start.

How about when Smith plays pushing Freeman further up to play along side Smith with Pav right midfield.

So a back four if we can find enough volunteers

Scowan/Luongo/Pav another from Manning/Cousins/Chair midfield or wingers

Freeman/Smith or Sylla

Pool of wingers Samuel, Wheeler, Shodipo

I think Pav should be allowed to play himself back into form.

A fully firing Luongo & Pavel would make a world of difference to us.

As for Brentford good for them to keep selling players and still finding pretty good replacements that fit in with their playing style. Ryan Woods perpetual Thorn in our side. If we signed him hes be absolutely useless

Oh and what a soppy club badge. More like a wasp or hornet.

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Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 13:54 - Nov 28 with 2565 views

westberksr

excellent review as per usual.

I didn't make it last night due to it being on tv and not fancying the near 4 hour return trip after a days work. So I'm the sort of fan Holloway was digging out and also the sort of fan that will be here long after he is; so he should choose his words more carefully. Equally I appreciate that by leaving early you run the risk of missing something & when there I might hit the stairs with 30 seconds to go just to get 80 year old father down before the crowds.

watching the game last night we have a few players that just cause us as many problems as they solve. Mackie got booked because his first touch is like that of a baby elephant and often loses possession due to this. Washington just seems to be hiding, not getting in the face of defenders and never really giving them anything to think about; either by a presence or pace. I keep expecting him to spring into action but it just isn't going to happen.

The inclusion of these 2 might be with the purpose of spoiling the other teams tactics but doesn't really add anything when we have the ball. Sylla worked hard but I think with a couple of hard working wingers supporting you have the chance of more end result and also having players that give the team better shape and its worrying that this doesn't seem to be an option for Holloway.

I long to see a winger get down the line or tee up an overlapping full back to put a good cross into the space between the 6 yd box and penalty spot for a centre forward or attacking midfielder to attack. instead we have spare strikers cutting in all the time because they are either unable to cross or do not understand the position.

I just think that with a slightly different use of players the ideas might have more chance of coming to fruition.

Roll on PNE at the weekend!!

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 14:12 - Nov 28 with 2500 views

sexton

4. WASHINGTON: Ollie should force him to watch 100 replays of Vibe's movement for their second goal and give him a DVD of The Best of Gary Lineker for Christmas.

6. ROBINSON: Love him to death. In the first half he made three fabulous interceptions/tackles in about 90 seconds.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 14:23 - Nov 28 with 2462 views

CroydonCaptJack

A very enjoyable and well written piece.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 14:52 - Nov 28 with 2392 views

Rs_Holy

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 14:12 - Nov 28 by sexton
4. WASHINGTON: Ollie should force him to watch 100 replays of Vibe's movement for their second goal and give him a DVD of The Best of Gary Lineker for Christmas. 6. ROBINSON: Love him to death. In the first half he made three fabulous interceptions/tackles in about 90 seconds.

poor old Conor! He is simply not good enough for the Championship. He would be an asset in League One for someone like AFC Wombledon or Gillingham.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 15:36 - Nov 28 with 2325 views

vegasranger

Thanks for the report Annti. Got to see my first game for awhile and have to agree with your comments on Washington. Just doesn't have the instincts of a striker. Always takes up the wrong positions. never reads flick ons. A really poor footballer.

Surely it's time to go 4-3-3? Play Cousins as a pure right back / Bidwell on the left. You then can play the excellent engine of Luongo, Scowan and Freeman in the middle. Play Pavel on the right, Wheeler on the left and either Syla / Smith up front. Pavel and Wheeler could drop back when we lose the ball, Freeman could push forward when we have the ball.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 15:37 - Nov 28 with 2319 views

Antti_Heinola

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 15:36 - Nov 28 by vegasranger

Yeah, wouldn't be surprised if he tried that. Would require Freeman getting nice and close to Smith/Sylla though.

Bare bones.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 16:24 - Nov 28 with 2241 views

derbyhoop

I think your comments about Washington were spot on. He does a lot of things quite well,. just none of them well enough. he really needs to try and spend most of his game inside the 2 posts and even then his movement has to be better.
What is becoming more worrying is that for all the attempts on goal, we don't seem to get nearly enough on target. Surely that can be coached and practised.

I must admit, from the comfort of my settee, I gave up after Brentford's second. I couldn't see where 1 goal was coming from let alone 2. But then it all went bonkers. As you say, that's why we love the game. And why one should never leave early.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain) Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 16:35 - Nov 28 with 2221 views

CFW

The one thing I like about Antti's Six Knee Jerks is it is not biased, not moaning, not pretending to be anything but a well written honest summery of a match.

For me I watched it in the warm comfort of my home and I do not intend to give views on players positions, positional plays, substitutions, managers role or post match comments. I said before the start of the season all I ask for is for everyone to do their best, never give up and lets try and get some consistency.

Well personally I thought we worked bloody hard all over the pitch, I did not see one player shirk a tackle, not run or chase the ball or not try his best. Yes we did give the ball away very cheaply many times, yes we did over run the ball, yes our finishing was woeful and our keeper kept us in the game on more than one occasion.

No we do not score enough goals and unable to keep a clean sheet and yes we do rely on our midfield trio BUT no one can say we gave up, no one can say we did not try, no one can say we did not give our all and for me that is good enough. Given our current injury list it really it is the best of a bad job.

No I did not spend over £100 in travel, ticket and food to watch the match and if I had done I might feel differently. But we are a team put together on a budget with some bang average players and our league position is just about what we might have expected. We will have good weeks and we will have bad ones - lets enjoy the good ones and move on from the bad ones.

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 16:41 - Nov 28 with 2204 views

Hunterhoop

Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Brentford 2 on 12:10 - Nov 28 by bosh67

Agree. Good Knee Jerks too.

Posted this on another thread on the Wash/Mackie/formation/wingers conundrum.

Love Holloway. Don't want him sacked at all. I'd keep him for this season and next at least. And we have the most fudged back line in the league, and are already one of the lowest spenders. Shock horror we concede!

My frustration comes from the fact that midfielder and attacking everyone is for! Yet we're playing without any identity.

He went to 433 last night, which I though made sense given the injuries at the back. But to play Washington and Mackie either side of Sylla was stupid. HOW MANY TIMES have we played Washington wide left of a front 3 and it not work?! And Mackie, Christ alive, he's just not very good any more. All the badge kissing in the world doesn't excuse him from not tracking back on several occasions in the first half and hanging Bidwell out to dry.

He and Wash didn't track back or work hard enough in general, which stretched the midfield 3 out wide leaving huge holes in our midfield which Brentford played through. He went 442 at one point with Mackie dropping deeper to LM, but it meant Freeman moving to RM and leaving just two in CM who got outnumbered. It got worse!

As Bosh said, what we were (and are, IMO) crying out for is some width. Go with 433/451, where your wide attackers are Wszolek and Wheeler/Shodipo/Smyth/Lua Lua/Samuel (if fit), and have them play genuinely wide like wingers. Have them work in partnership with their full back, get to the byline or near the box and deliver from there. Play with Sylla or Smith as the no. 9. Getting on the end of crosses is what they do well! Go back and think through MOST of the goals we've scored at home this year. Crosses, from wide, deep or corners. It was the same last year. Want to score more? How about we do more of that?! Have Freeman and Luongo breaking into the box to support Smith/Sylla.

Wszolek plays right wing for Poland! Yet we leave him on the bench or play him at right back! And instead we play Jamie Mackie!

When we play "352", our full backs are Bidwell and Cousins...that makes it a 532, so again little width in their half, little out balls save for hitting out forwards chests. No wingers to spread the pop out across the pitch. No easy out ball for the forward once he brings it under control. Without a fully fit back 3, I get that Ollie can't play a genuine 352 with wingers because we have no pace at the back and the CBs will get pulled wide and torn apart (Forest). Baptiste, for all his virtues, is as slow as a tree. He can't play in a back 3. A back 5, yes. Not a back 3. Same for Lynch. Onouha, Robinson, Hall and Perch probably can, but 3 of those are out for a while. So, for now, play 4 at the back with Scowen protecting. And have the wide forwards be wingers who do actually help out their full backs, don't play with their back to goal on the inside of the opposite full back, but instead hug the side of the pitch and go at their full back and whip it in. No centre half in this league wants to be defending crosses from wide areas against Matt Smith.

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