| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... 13:58 - May 9 with 113875 views | hubble |
..posted by a good friend of mine on Facebook, thought I'd share it on here. He's a former professional footballer (briefly for Birmingham City) and a former copper, working mainly out of Camden police station. He grew up in Kilburn/Queens Park. He's now a writer (among other things).
Worth a read I think, hope you enjoy, whether you agree with him or not, even when he veers off-topic...
"Thoughts of the Week (part 1)
Let’s start with a subheading. ‘Dear, oh dear Diane Abbot!’
In the upcoming General Election campaign and apart from the ‘Leader’ (no, not Gary Glitter) no one is more important for the Labour Party campaign than the Shadow Home Secretary. Why’s this? You ask.
The reason is obvious: Theresa May —the strong woman, Ms subtle, but steely - was the former Home Secretary. A position which she used to inflict near terminal ravages of the nation’s police forces. Under her auspices we saw numbers cut, benefits cut and police stations closed willy-nilly to cash in, short-term, on the booming (especially in London) property market.
The short-sightedness of this policy is astounding. No matter the so-called austerity budget (which only seems to apply to the working classes, while the privileged elite continue to live the life of Riley) the question must be asked as to what will happen when there’s some serious social unrest — and you can feel it stirring. Remember 2011 when the riots broke out? We had anarchy and nihilism on the streets and the police force didn’t cope with it at all. Instead we had a grand mopping up campaign. Suddenly all those poor silly students who had been demonised as hard-core criminals after they smashed the windows of the Tory HQ — and received ridiculously harsh prison sentences for what were in the main first offences - were kicked out of the pokey and replaced by the new batch of rioters. The Criminal Justice system ground to a halt, the prison’s overflowed. The courts were as ram-jam packed as a back-in-the-day David Rodigan dance. In response what did the great Theresa May do? She further decimated the police force. She did the same to the prison service. The vaunted Border Force, our first defence, is comically short of manpower and morale as they attempt to hire staff on Mickey-Mouse contracts. Labour should be slaughtering Theresa May on what she’s done. Instead we got that car crash of an interview on LBC.
To be honest I resisted calls to listen to it for a time. Some of my more right-leaning pals were raving about it, but I thought they were overreacting due to a general contempt for the Hackney MP. I was wrong. When I actually got round to listening to it I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. It was stunningly incompetent, mind-blowingly nonsensical, embarrassing and shocking. Is this the Shadow Home Secretary who’s going to lead the challenge to Theresa May’s record? She should have stood down immediately and if not the great leader should have forced her hand, no matter past rendezvous in the sack. Of course it didn’t happen and Labour under Jeremy Corbyn has no hope in this election. What a shame it all is because there are loads of issues that they should be taking the government to task on. Just look at that bumbling Tommy Cooper impersonator of a Foreign Secretary, a million miles removed from a serious statesman: Mr Retraction — an embarrassment to the nation.
I’m voting Labour in the coming election, but not for Jeremy, more for the thought of the millions of people who are going to suffer under the coming five years of Tory rule: the working men and women who haven’t seen their wages rise, in real terms, for the last thirty years, while the fat cats, sharks and speculators are minted; the students starting out life saddled with debt; the millions who’ll never be able to afford a home; and in honour of the National Health Service, soon to be dismantled further, but remaining the brightest light in the nation’s modern history. What a rotten, unfair and unbalanced society we’ve become.
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 15:34 - Jun 7 with 2304 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 15:30 - Jun 7 by JamesB1979 |
Why would I ignore what you said? I've not been trying to force feed their politics on people here. What you copied and pasted has nothing to Do with what I was saying |
Well in any event Jim may have a better answer than me |  |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 15:46 - Jun 7 with 2288 views | JamesB1979 |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 15:28 - Jun 7 by QPR_Jim |
Are you aware of the Labour policy regarding protecting small businesses from big businesses in regard to invoicing periods. For example a company I used to work for nearly went bust because our main client decided to refuse to pay invoices in 30 days and moved it to 90 days instead. This caused cash flow issues and the company only survived because I was happy (not happy but accepted it) to let them pay me when they had the money. That was all about cash flow and had them 1hr from bankruptcy.
Corporation tax is about taxing profit, most small businesses inflate expenses to reduce the level of profit in the accounts anyway from what I remember, so I doubt it would have that much of an effect. If I make 30k profit after a years trading and get taxed 8.4k instead of 7.5k it really shouldn't lead to sackings, it's just slightly smaller dividend to the owner of the business who is probably paid a wage out of that amount anyway, so could manipulate it so his wages are higher and his profit lower if it reduced his taxes, should he wish.
The cash flow is more important to small businesses and if you remember while Corbyn was at a meeting of FSB specifically to engage the small businesses the media decided to ask him questions about trident instead of focus on this and then got all indignant when he wanted to answer their questions after the event instead. If you honestly believe corporation tax is more important issue to small businesses then that's fine but I disagree and again would say the media are burying the issue of cash flow and invoicing in favour of pushing that narrative which IMO doesn't stand up to the realities of what I've experienced. |
Now that's a response to my point.
1) Yes it's a tax on profit but profit (or loss) ultimately becomes cashflow. It's just a timing point.
2) Cashflow is most important to all business.
3) I'm not talking about corporation tax in isolation. If you combine with removing zero hours contract and increasing minimum wage, it's a triple hit to them.
4) Dividends? Paying these out is secondary to setting your investment requirements e.g. capex for next year. Not all these companies are paying out huge dividends. They want to spend capex so that they can invest and grow their business. If you hit their profits and ultimately their cashflow, they will look to reduce cost. You can reduce non-employee type costs but ultimately its people that make the difference.
5) It's not just small businesses but all businesses too. What will the decision makers at these companies decide to do? I think it will lead to increased unemployment.
6) I've not seen anything in the press on this. Been all brexit, security (probably understandably), NHS...all important but not sure this point has been discussed much at all. |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:00 - Jun 7 with 2242 views | kensalriser |
I'm surprised you think that curbing zero hours contracts will hit small businesses. It's big business (ie Sports Direct) that likes them so much. |  |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:04 - Jun 7 with 2227 views | JamesB1979 |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:00 - Jun 7 by kensalriser |
I'm surprised you think that curbing zero hours contracts will hit small businesses. It's big business (ie Sports Direct) that likes them so much. |
No, I said that all 3 will hit small businesses. But also, if you hit large businesses, you still have low income earners working for them. These large businesses are pretty ruthless when comes to cost.
Also, some workers do prefer zero hours contracts as it gives them flexibility e.g. such as students. Sure there were some surveys released to reflect this. | | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:11 - Jun 7 with 2202 views | kensalriser |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:04 - Jun 7 by JamesB1979 |
No, I said that all 3 will hit small businesses. But also, if you hit large businesses, you still have low income earners working for them. These large businesses are pretty ruthless when comes to cost.
Also, some workers do prefer zero hours contracts as it gives them flexibility e.g. such as students. Sure there were some surveys released to reflect this. |
Some may prefer them, I bet the vast majority don't. And no-one should have such a contract forced on them. It's simply a way for big business to exploit people and evade employment legislation. | |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:13 - Jun 7 with 2196 views | JamesB1979 |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:11 - Jun 7 by kensalriser |
Some may prefer them, I bet the vast majority don't. And no-one should have such a contract forced on them. It's simply a way for big business to exploit people and evade employment legislation. |
Just because some companies/people abuse it, doesn't mean that zero hours contracts are wrong. If they work for some people and some businesses, why ban them? | | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:25 - Jun 7 with 2168 views | Hunterhoop |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 13:37 - Jun 7 by JamesB1979 |
Fair points made here Jim. I think the press should be allowed to express an opinion, it's just that Mail, Sun, Express outweigh the Mirror. I do think the broadsheets do tend to be more balanced.
I was originally going to vote Lib Dem but have tactically changed my mind in last 2 weeks. Main reason being the corporation tax hike combined with removal of zero hours contracts and increase in minimum wage. The latter 1 is a good aim and we should try to increase this minimum wage over time. However, to me these 3 together will hit small businesses and low paid workers the most. With increased tax and cost caused by these policies, what will small businesses (and large ones for that matter) do? Take the hit? Decrease more well paid staff? Or reduce number of lower paid staff? I think they will take option 3. That's why I've decided to vote Tory tomorrow. I don't like May, I"m pro EU, I want income tax rate increased for all (LIb Dem policy) to fund public services but in my constituency Lib Dem is a wasted vote. |
Mate, your vote is only wasted if you don't vote. You clearly align most with the Lib Dems, and you acknowledge it! Vote for who represents you best, not a party that happens to align with others in your vicinity more. It's important the Lib Dems have a popular vote, as well as constituency vote, which sees them have a voice in mainstream policies. We need a common sense, middle ground party and you seem to be pretty centrist in your thinking.
And you don't want to have voted on the wrong side of history if the Tories win and then when they bugger up Brexit.
C'mon...vote for the Lib Dems.  |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:25 - Jun 7 with 2168 views | stowmarketrange |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:13 - Jun 7 by JamesB1979 |
Just because some companies/people abuse it, doesn't mean that zero hours contracts are wrong. If they work for some people and some businesses, why ban them? |
Would you be happy to have one then?
That is the acid test.If you wouldn't be happy to have one why should others be forced to have them? |  | | |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:57 - Jun 7 with 2122 views | QPR_Jim |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 15:46 - Jun 7 by JamesB1979 |
Now that's a response to my point.
1) Yes it's a tax on profit but profit (or loss) ultimately becomes cashflow. It's just a timing point.
2) Cashflow is most important to all business.
3) I'm not talking about corporation tax in isolation. If you combine with removing zero hours contract and increasing minimum wage, it's a triple hit to them.
4) Dividends? Paying these out is secondary to setting your investment requirements e.g. capex for next year. Not all these companies are paying out huge dividends. They want to spend capex so that they can invest and grow their business. If you hit their profits and ultimately their cashflow, they will look to reduce cost. You can reduce non-employee type costs but ultimately its people that make the difference.
5) It's not just small businesses but all businesses too. What will the decision makers at these companies decide to do? I think it will lead to increased unemployment.
6) I've not seen anything in the press on this. Been all brexit, security (probably understandably), NHS...all important but not sure this point has been discussed much at all. |
You're right, about dividends but it depends on the business model, by default I think of a consultancy because that's the company I work/worked for. So the owner(s) generally drain the profit at the end of the year as we have minimal capital expenditure. Obviously capital expenditure can be funded through borrowing if there's a decent business case for it as an investment.
I think the Lib Dems have got it partly right on zero hours contracts, it needs regulating but essentially if a company won't commit to a certain amount of hours and therefore a wage there's no need for the employee to commit to exclusivity to that company, as they currently do. In essence that would be more like a freelance system but then for your average guy at sports direct, if he could work somewhere else as well he'd probably end up having to produce a tax return as he'd have more than one source of income. I'm guessing that would quickly fall apart and become obsolete as you're average guy at sports direct won't be able to afford an accountant. So the min. wage type of jobs probably won't exist on zero hours. I'm not sure how many small businesses use zero hours contracts but it can't be hard to give them a small number of guaranteed hours with an opportunity for overtime instead. I'm sure most companies will be able to adapt their model to suit.
As for the min wage, this will only affect those being paid min wage to begin with, how many that is I don't know but it will affect different industries in different ways. Most I imagine are only paying the low skill employees min. wage. Again thinking in an office environment most are already over this rate. I would imagine that it will lead to inflationary costs for some items/services which bigger companies or consumers will end up bearing the cost of anyway through raising prices etc. There may be some job losses but I doubt it will be significant as employees will find ways to spread the costs. |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:06 - Jun 7 with 2112 views | Northernr |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 16:25 - Jun 7 by stowmarketrange |
Would you be happy to have one then?
That is the acid test.If you wouldn't be happy to have one why should others be forced to have them? |
I think his point is right. For students they're very useful things, means they can work more when they've got a reading week and less when they've got exams for example.
Some big companies abuse them, I agree with Kensal that nobody should have one forced upon them, for lots of people they're dreadful things, no I wouldn't be happy to have one now but my circumstances are different from when I was 18-19 and did have one.
Back then it enabled me to basically work full time hours on full time money at the airport near my home when I was on holiday from uni - and, crucially, just slip straight back into the same job as soon as the holidays started without having to apply around again - but not work at all for the six or seven week stretches when I was at uni 100 miles away.
An absolute blanket ban is just an easy crowd pleaser IMO.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:19 - Jun 7 with 2076 views | DannytheR |
Most of us worked something like zero hours when we were kids or students. I worked at the Notting Hill Record and Tapes all the way through university as what was called "a casual" - you called up last thing at night and found out if they wanted you in the next day.
It was fine, because my rent was just about covered by my student loan, so I was really just earning money to be able to go out and have a bit of a life. (We were also earning waaaaaay below what would later become the minimum wage, which slightly gives the lie to the idea employers will pay more if they can use zero hours).
Once you're out of that environment and an actual adult living an actual adult life, the whole model breaks down. It's a pretty straightforward equation. Landlords don't stop demanding rent because your employer hasn't given you enough hours that month, and the leccy bill won't wait until you've made up enough hours at some point in the future.
For people with no dependents and whose overheads are underwritten by their mums and dads, it has upsides and downsides. As a model for employment among adults, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:26 - Jun 7 with 2065 views | stowmarketrange |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:06 - Jun 7 by Northernr |
I think his point is right. For students they're very useful things, means they can work more when they've got a reading week and less when they've got exams for example.
Some big companies abuse them, I agree with Kensal that nobody should have one forced upon them, for lots of people they're dreadful things, no I wouldn't be happy to have one now but my circumstances are different from when I was 18-19 and did have one.
Back then it enabled me to basically work full time hours on full time money at the airport near my home when I was on holiday from uni - and, crucially, just slip straight back into the same job as soon as the holidays started without having to apply around again - but not work at all for the six or seven week stretches when I was at uni 100 miles away.
An absolute blanket ban is just an easy crowd pleaser IMO.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I'm not disputing that for some people they are ok,but too many companies force people to have them,including 1 multi national logistics company who only employ their truck drivers on zero hour contracts.
No one should be forced to have one. | | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:29 - Jun 7 with 2057 views | Northernr |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 17:26 - Jun 7 by stowmarketrange |
I'm not disputing that for some people they are ok,but too many companies force people to have them,including 1 multi national logistics company who only employ their truck drivers on zero hour contracts.
No one should be forced to have one. |
Agree, but a blanket ban is a bad idea. | | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 20:00 - Jun 7 with 1944 views | johncharles |
There's pros and cons on both sides. Take slavery for example, the owner has to house, feed and clothe his slaves, take care of their health issues . No such constraints on zero hours employers.
You could lose your home and starve to death if it was up to them |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 20:48 - Jun 7 with 1886 views | collegeranger |
I'm 49 and it was called 'temping' when I was a teenager/student - the only difference is that I believe the employer has a chance to relieve you of duties if you don't meet the hours they give you. That was then same with temping! Agency calls me - Q - can you work in crappy kitchen for £3.50 an hour - Answer - yes - one week later do want to do the same again? Answer No - dont expect a a call next week.
Anyway back to OP - re Diane Abbot - since when has incompetent been an illness? |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 21:55 - Jun 7 with 1811 views | easthertsr |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 20:48 - Jun 7 by collegeranger |
I'm 49 and it was called 'temping' when I was a teenager/student - the only difference is that I believe the employer has a chance to relieve you of duties if you don't meet the hours they give you. That was then same with temping! Agency calls me - Q - can you work in crappy kitchen for £3.50 an hour - Answer - yes - one week later do want to do the same again? Answer No - dont expect a a call next week.
Anyway back to OP - re Diane Abbot - since when has incompetent been an illness? |
For ages, Jeremy Hunt, Michael Fallon, Liam Fox, Phillip Hammond to name just a few have had this chronic condition for what seems like an eternity! | | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 11:04 - Jun 8 with 1583 views | kenedy |
I really like what you have shared here. | |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 11:37 - Jun 8 with 1536 views | simmo |
Read that yesterday and have to admit I knew very little of all of her accomplishments, that's a fantastic record of bravery and being a pioneer, especially for black women. It doesn't detract from the fact she was not capable to perform the cabinet role she was up for, but she certainly deserves more respect than certain parts of the press are giving her. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 11:42 - Jun 8 with 1523 views | FDC |
This was another robust defense of the much reviled Abbott
(Thread)
Edit: ha, just realised it the same post! [Post edited 8 Jun 2017 11:45]
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 11:58 - Jun 8 with 1491 views | robith |
Voted this morning. Usually I pontificate for ages, justifying a Labour vote to myself. But today I didn't even flinch. X straight in the box, even though my MP is a wet wipe of a centrist.
I thought finally being able to vote for a platform that truly aligned with own beliefs would bring me great joy, but really I just feel a seething anger at the insular pettiness that begets this island. I fear deeply for a future that I think is only going to get worse and I see no way out of.
I hope everyone enjoys election day. Thanks to the civil posters in this thread whom I agree with (FDC) and those whom I do not who I enjoy chatting with (essex, Hunter and even stevec). Every now and then there is some seriously interesting discussion here, and it's probably the last place left on the internet where I discuss politics (my echo chamber twitter aside) |  | | |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 12:35 - Jun 8 with 1445 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 11:58 - Jun 8 by robith |
Voted this morning. Usually I pontificate for ages, justifying a Labour vote to myself. But today I didn't even flinch. X straight in the box, even though my MP is a wet wipe of a centrist.
I thought finally being able to vote for a platform that truly aligned with own beliefs would bring me great joy, but really I just feel a seething anger at the insular pettiness that begets this island. I fear deeply for a future that I think is only going to get worse and I see no way out of.
I hope everyone enjoys election day. Thanks to the civil posters in this thread whom I agree with (FDC) and those whom I do not who I enjoy chatting with (essex, Hunter and even stevec). Every now and then there is some seriously interesting discussion here, and it's probably the last place left on the internet where I discuss politics (my echo chamber twitter aside) |
I'm not going to apologise for anything I've said.
I'm a true believer is social justice for everyone.
My dad was a nasty tory so I know fully well what that means.
When someone says they want more cuts you really see the nasty people that care for no one outside their bubble.
Like JC or not he has not told the lies the tories have and has told the truth on how it will be under the tories. | |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 13:45 - Jun 8 with 1372 views | TacticalR |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 12:35 - Jun 8 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'm not going to apologise for anything I've said.
I'm a true believer is social justice for everyone.
My dad was a nasty tory so I know fully well what that means.
When someone says they want more cuts you really see the nasty people that care for no one outside their bubble.
Like JC or not he has not told the lies the tories have and has told the truth on how it will be under the tories. |
I'll only repeat what I said on this forum six years ago:
'It is not the viciousness of the Tories that leads to them to make cuts, but the necessity of the cuts that makes the Tories vicious.'
http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/forum/54913
The irony is that while tormenting the poor, the nasty party (to use Theresa May's description of the Conservative Party) have completely failed in their stated 2010 goal of reducing the national debt (see first graph):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt
We are witnessing the crisis of a social system, not of a particular party. |  |
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| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 13:57 - Jun 8 with 1347 views | robith |
| On Diane Abbot, why we should vote Labour anyway, and more... on 12:35 - Jun 8 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'm not going to apologise for anything I've said.
I'm a true believer is social justice for everyone.
My dad was a nasty tory so I know fully well what that means.
When someone says they want more cuts you really see the nasty people that care for no one outside their bubble.
Like JC or not he has not told the lies the tories have and has told the truth on how it will be under the tories. |
Not saying you need to chap - I burn with the same fury as you, and Corbyn has relit a passion in me I thought I'd never feel again about the Labour party.
But the brain processes information a lot of the time on automation. Only ever being angry just falls onto deaf ears as we trigger the "lol lefty" part of the brain | | | |
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