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Put the TV on and clock how many are in the Commons for David Davis statement. Nobody really gives a fuçk it's just a load of bollox and most people don't care it's just an opportunity to spout off and moan.
The first ever recipient of a Planet Swans Lifetime Achievement Award.
I would say the EU is too socialist for many Tories, with redistribution of wealth to poorer areas and countries, and workers rights as central pillars.
And not socialist enough for many in the labour movement, with emphasise on free trade and free movement of capital.
Another question for brexiteers on 12:16 - Mar 30 by sherpajacob
I would say the EU is too socialist for many Tories, with redistribution of wealth to poorer areas and countries, and workers rights as central pillars.
And not socialist enough for many in the labour movement, with emphasise on free trade and free movement of capital.
Probably means they got it about right.
As I said in a previous thread extremes dislike it because it's largely social democratic, centrist in its vision.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
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Another question for brexiteers on 12:56 - Mar 30 with 3224 views
Another question for brexiteers on 12:31 - Mar 30 by Highjack
Oh well we'll end the thread there then.
Your own post was written with the same degree of finality!
The EU is a protectionist state, just with the 'borders' cast wider than some would like.
Social justice, redistribution, workers protections, restriction of movement of people (to and from the EU), tariff restricted access to its markets, endless bureaucracy etc etc. All of these features are a long way from being a capitalist dream.
If the features of the EU were present within a narrower border (the U.K.), then there'd be no confusion about seeing it as a centrist left, liberal minded construct. The reason for some describing it as in the interests of big business, is because the 'border' is set in such a way that said business has access to a relatively cheap workforce (compared to our own). But that is no different to a cheaper workforce being available in, say, Cornwall, or the North Of England when compared to London and the South East.
The dream of those voting out, I'm sure, is that the UK becomes the region that is protectionist. The reality is likely to be very different. No policy will halt the march of globalisation and automation. No politics will result in the rolling back of the clock to a time where people had and demanded a lot less, or were prepared to spend a fortune on goods which we all now take for granted. The world has moved on, and policy designed to fit the world in the 1950s no longer works, however much the leavers would pretend otherwise.
We are where we are, and we have to attempt to make the most of it. It's pointless anyone trying to rerun the vote. But that doesn't mean that it won't lead to significant upset in certain sections of our communities. We have to hope that it washes out in a relatively short period of time. The lack of preparation from the government doesn't fill one with hope, however.
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Another question for brexiteers on 13:09 - Mar 30 with 3200 views
Another question for brexiteers on 12:56 - Mar 30 by londonlisa2001
Your own post was written with the same degree of finality!
The EU is a protectionist state, just with the 'borders' cast wider than some would like.
Social justice, redistribution, workers protections, restriction of movement of people (to and from the EU), tariff restricted access to its markets, endless bureaucracy etc etc. All of these features are a long way from being a capitalist dream.
If the features of the EU were present within a narrower border (the U.K.), then there'd be no confusion about seeing it as a centrist left, liberal minded construct. The reason for some describing it as in the interests of big business, is because the 'border' is set in such a way that said business has access to a relatively cheap workforce (compared to our own). But that is no different to a cheaper workforce being available in, say, Cornwall, or the North Of England when compared to London and the South East.
The dream of those voting out, I'm sure, is that the UK becomes the region that is protectionist. The reality is likely to be very different. No policy will halt the march of globalisation and automation. No politics will result in the rolling back of the clock to a time where people had and demanded a lot less, or were prepared to spend a fortune on goods which we all now take for granted. The world has moved on, and policy designed to fit the world in the 1950s no longer works, however much the leavers would pretend otherwise.
We are where we are, and we have to attempt to make the most of it. It's pointless anyone trying to rerun the vote. But that doesn't mean that it won't lead to significant upset in certain sections of our communities. We have to hope that it washes out in a relatively short period of time. The lack of preparation from the government doesn't fill one with hope, however.
Excellent post.
The 1950's dream is over, we lost our Empire the World has moved on. The future is more inter-connection.
Our future after post colonial era was in shaping Europe yet still trading with the rest of the World.
Now we've decided to shoot ourselves in the foot. People want the past to continue for ever, it doesn't work like that. If you want to live, you have to live in the present and keep an eye on the future. Respect your past, but it's your past...
Europe with UK at the core was our future and we've blown it because we'd had enough of immigrants. By cutting our nose off to spite our face we'll reap the whirlwind and for what? Immigration will still be high. Those of you sat there expecting the drawbridge to be pulled up are kidding yourself and those of you who believe we've taken back Sovereignty, we never lost it. Now we've 'taken back control' we'll have to abide by every diktat shaped by foreign powers because we won't have a seat at the table.
It's a stupid decision, it shows us to be weak not strong.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
1
Another question for brexiteers on 13:18 - Mar 30 with 3185 views
Another question for brexiteers on 13:31 - Mar 30 by dickythorpe
I'm sure we'll see some real success stories in the next decade......and we'll all be looking at 2016/17 - and wondering what was all the fuss about!
There will be ups and downs as there would have been had we remained.
I believe that our economic strength relative to France and Germany will reduce gradually over time , say 0.5% gdp growth pa, as tariffs and non tariff barriers take effect.
The end result will be that in 10-15 years time , the cumulative loss of GDP will make us as we were in 1973,"the sick man of Europe".
I could of course be completely wrong, the dangerous people are the ones who say with certainty what will happen in the future..
Another question for brexiteers on 13:16 - Mar 30 by rock1n
Excellent post.
The 1950's dream is over, we lost our Empire the World has moved on. The future is more inter-connection.
Our future after post colonial era was in shaping Europe yet still trading with the rest of the World.
Now we've decided to shoot ourselves in the foot. People want the past to continue for ever, it doesn't work like that. If you want to live, you have to live in the present and keep an eye on the future. Respect your past, but it's your past...
Europe with UK at the core was our future and we've blown it because we'd had enough of immigrants. By cutting our nose off to spite our face we'll reap the whirlwind and for what? Immigration will still be high. Those of you sat there expecting the drawbridge to be pulled up are kidding yourself and those of you who believe we've taken back Sovereignty, we never lost it. Now we've 'taken back control' we'll have to abide by every diktat shaped by foreign powers because we won't have a seat at the table.
It's a stupid decision, it shows us to be weak not strong.
If the EU was just a trading entity then no problem, that was the premise that was sold to us by 'Sailor boy Heath' , unfortunately the 'Common Market' morphed into a Semi-European superstate with full lawmaking powers. People saw an unfairness, we would accept European laws unconditionally to be seen as good Europeans yet Germany and France would cherry pick laws that would suit themselves.
Another question for brexiteers on 15:15 - Mar 30 by snork44
If the EU was just a trading entity then no problem, that was the premise that was sold to us by 'Sailor boy Heath' , unfortunately the 'Common Market' morphed into a Semi-European superstate with full lawmaking powers. People saw an unfairness, we would accept European laws unconditionally to be seen as good Europeans yet Germany and France would cherry pick laws that would suit themselves.
We are leaving the customs union, which is the old common market.
Is that 'fair enough?'
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
0
Another question for brexiteers on 15:25 - Mar 30 with 3061 views
Another question for brexiteers on 13:16 - Mar 30 by rock1n
Excellent post.
The 1950's dream is over, we lost our Empire the World has moved on. The future is more inter-connection.
Our future after post colonial era was in shaping Europe yet still trading with the rest of the World.
Now we've decided to shoot ourselves in the foot. People want the past to continue for ever, it doesn't work like that. If you want to live, you have to live in the present and keep an eye on the future. Respect your past, but it's your past...
Europe with UK at the core was our future and we've blown it because we'd had enough of immigrants. By cutting our nose off to spite our face we'll reap the whirlwind and for what? Immigration will still be high. Those of you sat there expecting the drawbridge to be pulled up are kidding yourself and those of you who believe we've taken back Sovereignty, we never lost it. Now we've 'taken back control' we'll have to abide by every diktat shaped by foreign powers because we won't have a seat at the table.
It's a stupid decision, it shows us to be weak not strong.
"Will you in the next election be voting for the tories or UKIP? If you're not, why not.
You agree with the direction of travel, you clearly want right wing policies why wouldn't you vote right wing?" - rock1n
I'll be voting for the Lib Dems again, the EU was a single issue (an important issue but a single issue) and that debate has been won...I must confess that I hope the party get's over the Brexit thing sooner rather than later although it might translate into the return of the Lib Dems as a force if we can pick up voters such as yourself...
...if you are ditching the Tories purely on the Brexit issue the Lib Dems would stand a good shout of gaining your vote I suppose?
Another question for brexiteers on 17:21 - Mar 30 by Kerouac
"Will you in the next election be voting for the tories or UKIP? If you're not, why not.
You agree with the direction of travel, you clearly want right wing policies why wouldn't you vote right wing?" - rock1n
I'll be voting for the Lib Dems again, the EU was a single issue (an important issue but a single issue) and that debate has been won...I must confess that I hope the party get's over the Brexit thing sooner rather than later although it might translate into the return of the Lib Dems as a force if we can pick up voters such as yourself...
...if you are ditching the Tories purely on the Brexit issue the Lib Dems would stand a good shout of gaining your vote I suppose?
Not purely on brexit, there are other issues.
Yes, I will be voting lib dems - although I'd much prefer Nick Clegg was leader.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
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Another question for brexiteers on 17:29 - Mar 30 with 2979 views
Another question for brexiteers on 14:33 - Mar 30 by sherpajacob
The remainers.
That agenda is already being well and truly set out.
[Post edited 30 Mar 2017 14:38]
No it will be the Brexiters who will get the blame. The vast majority if Parliament wanted to remain but we are starting the Leave process because they were only carrying out the of the will of the people, despite their misgivings. In the very unlikley event it all goes swimmingly then this unholy risk will be deemed massive foresight on their behalf and the Tories will take full credit for it.
[Post edited 30 Mar 2017 17:32]
You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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Another question for brexiteers on 17:31 - Mar 30 with 2971 views
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