| Brexit on 19:03 - Feb 7 with 1926 views | NW5Hoop |
| Brexit on 15:51 - Feb 7 by essextaxiboy |
You should be pleased for your kids ,there is massive youth unemployment in the Euro zone .
They will be free from having to subsidise that .
I have three adult boys and a granddaughter ,I voted out for them , not me .
By the way only 24% of young people bothered to vote
Brexit isn't a fantasy , it's happening and if it's taking a while to prepare for it you should remember that one of the first things Cameron did in the campaign was to deny any "out" members of parliament access to civil servants .
He also as the Prime Minister failed to do even the slightest preparation for a leave vote.
The legal arguments are being dealt with one by one , the name calling , insults and mudslinging continue . |
It's a myth that young people didn't turn out. In fact, 64% of 18-24 year olds voted.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout |  | |  |
| Brexit on 19:13 - Feb 7 with 1910 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit on 18:15 - Feb 7 by 1BobbyHazell |
I'm always fascinated by this remain angle that things were going so well in this country. Absolutely bizarre. The gap between rich and poor grows a pace as does the use of food banks, the slashing of benefits, the race to the bottom in the job market, every type of community service from libraries to playing fields to support for the vulnerable being absolutely decimated, the NHS being driven to its knees, the very life blood of our infrastructure being sold to the highest bidder/corporate investor/foreign hedge fund who will be demanding an annual profit from us, our children, our children's children ad infinitum, the ever growing unserviceable debt to the illusionary monetary system that guarantees our future generation's economic slavery etc etc.
All happening whilst in our great saviour the EU.
But good to know you'll be back in four years to tell us where it all went wrong. Sigh. We're all gonna need to be a little bit stronger emotionally than some of us are showing and perhaps, dare I say it, even a little more positive, optimistic and thoughtful about what we we can all do individually and collectively to improve our society and communities.
Come and join us. Or just pretend that everything was and would always have been fine in the EU. An EU, I might add, whose lack of popularity with millions of its citizens you will soon learn much more about in the next year or so. A lot seems to be done to keep that quiet, but it is about to burst irreversibly through the seams.
An economically co operative Europe that is not led and dominated by the people, organisations and consciousness responsible for this type of corporations over democracy enforceable legislation https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/11/great-ceta-swindle is one I look forward to getting behind in times to come. |
Interesting first paragraph and probably explains why so many were p***ed off. But, how much is any of that the fault of the EU, compared with 6 years of austerity from the current govt and the coalition before?
Was the referendum result the biggest protest vote in UK history? |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit on 19:14 - Feb 7 with 1909 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Oh yeah the referendum thing. What was the result in the end? |  |
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| Brexit on 19:23 - Feb 7 with 1889 views | Rangersw12 |
No what you mean is 64% of the 2000 18-24 year olds asked in that survey said they voted !!! | | | |
| Brexit on 19:26 - Feb 7 with 3332 views | NW5Hoop |
| Brexit on 19:23 - Feb 7 by Rangersw12 |
No what you mean is 64% of the 2000 18-24 year olds asked in that survey said they voted !!! |
Whereas the lower figure was based on … opinion polling around the 2015 general election. So, hey ho. | | | |
| Brexit on 19:30 - Feb 7 with 3328 views | Rangersw12 |
| Brexit on 19:26 - Feb 7 by NW5Hoop |
Whereas the lower figure was based on … opinion polling around the 2015 general election. So, hey ho. |
And we both know how accurate the polls have been in the last 12 months
To be honest I thought the general turn out for everyone would of been higher . A massive decision and nearly 30% couldn't be bothered | | | |
| Brexit on 19:31 - Feb 7 with 3323 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit on 18:32 - Feb 7 by 1BobbyHazell |
I am yet to meet a remainer, including on here, whose views I would consider to be more 'properly researched, understood and considered' than mine. It also includes, as I posted in a previous thread, Liberal Party workers who felt they had enough knowledge to go doorstep to doorstep campaigning for the new liberal MP pretty much solely on the issue of Brexit. They knew f*ck all, it was embarrassing.
And yet there remains (see what I did there) a superiority held by many of them. Even though whenever I put up some very detailed research on here about Ceta etc they would rather just ignore it and go on about 'posters on buses' and racists because it suits their narrative as opposed to maybe having some detailed discussions, debates and admissions that their knowledge base could be expanded about the deeper issues of the EU and what membership of it really means.
I think it was Juzzie who described it earlier in the thread as quasi religious, very good. |
"Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way."
Dominic Cummings, Vote Leave Campaign Director.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/ |  | | |
| Brexit on 19:44 - Feb 7 with 3302 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Brexit on 19:14 - Feb 7 by PlanetHonneywood |
Oh yeah the referendum thing. What was the result in the end? |
Don't tell them Pike |  |
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| Brexit on 20:05 - Feb 7 with 3278 views | essextaxiboy |
I would counter those with how many voted remain in fear of " a profound and immediate economic shock" requiring an "emergency budget"
Or " an immediate 18% drop in house prices" of fear of "another war" or being "the back of the queue " .
The Chancellor , The Pm , and The President of the US ..
The bus said " lets fund the NHS instead " no mention of how much by .. the power of suggestion at best IMO . |  | | |
| Brexit on 20:21 - Feb 7 with 3252 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
I wonder of those on here that voted remain had also voted Conservative. | |
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| Brexit on 20:24 - Feb 7 with 3245 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit on 20:05 - Feb 7 by essextaxiboy |
I would counter those with how many voted remain in fear of " a profound and immediate economic shock" requiring an "emergency budget"
Or " an immediate 18% drop in house prices" of fear of "another war" or being "the back of the queue " .
The Chancellor , The Pm , and The President of the US ..
The bus said " lets fund the NHS instead " no mention of how much by .. the power of suggestion at best IMO . |
Spare me the Whataboutery. I really don't care.
I posted the Cummings quote in response to someone saying that people "go on about 'posters on buses' and racists because it suits their narrative."
Whereas in fact, for all the nuanced opinions and different motivations (of course) among 17m people, that's what won the vote. Cummings, with his reams of data and terrifyingly smart grasp of politics, pulled off a spectacular upset. He is the actual horses' mouth.
Swallowing reality cuts both ways. People who voted Remain have to accept that we're not. People who voted Leave have to acknowledge what really mattered to a large number of their fellow voters, and that at the very least they weren't bothered enough by that to vote differently. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 20:26]
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| Brexit on 20:25 - Feb 7 with 3233 views | QPR_John |
Many on here on the remain side make the point that the EU is not perfect but we should have stayed and reformed it from within. Cameron tried that and was given nothing when in fact some change might have produced a different result. The EU will not change it had the chance and decided against it so what chance in the future. Whatever arguments are given to remain to say that the EU can or even wants to be reformed is fanciful | | | |
| Brexit on 20:29 - Feb 7 with 3225 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit on 20:25 - Feb 7 by QPR_John |
Many on here on the remain side make the point that the EU is not perfect but we should have stayed and reformed it from within. Cameron tried that and was given nothing when in fact some change might have produced a different result. The EU will not change it had the chance and decided against it so what chance in the future. Whatever arguments are given to remain to say that the EU can or even wants to be reformed is fanciful |
100% John.
Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed has absolutely no idea about its core power base and intentions. |  | | |
| Brexit on 20:39 - Feb 7 with 3196 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Brexit on 20:29 - Feb 7 by 1BobbyHazell |
100% John.
Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed has absolutely no idea about its core power base and intentions. |
And if we had voted to remain, we would have handed them even more power to do whatever they wanted, we could hardly complain and reforming would have been impossible, it really is fantasy. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 20:40]
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| Brexit on 20:51 - Feb 7 with 3161 views | LongsufferingR |
Wigan are losing to Norwich. |  | | |
| Brexit on 20:58 - Feb 7 with 3146 views | 1BobbyHazell |
I'm not talking about why people voted. I'm talking about the realities of the EU and membership of it.
You are one of the high profile remainers who I refer to. I have seen some very emotional sweeping statements from you on the subject and a lot of back and forth with your opponents that invariably ends up in narrow reductive accusations/projections by both parties.
I have offered, in different ways in several threads, in an open and friendly manner, some pieces of very well researched work that I genuinely believe many, particularly left leaning, remainers (which I presume you to be) should be more aware of and look into for yourselves about the push by the central power core of the EU towards the creation of legislation that will open the door to a global corporate plutocracy where the desires and profits of foreign corporations supercede sovreign democracy. All tied up in directives that our future generations will be unable to change even when (not if) they realise what situation it has put them in.
Now I'm assuming that that is something you would be very much against but it feels to me with your 'quasi religious' fervour about being pro EU you don't even want to entertain reading the things I have posted and considering their viability. It seems to be easier for you to just ignore all that and claim that all Leavers are utterly ignorant and our country, that was apparently doing so well (and was guaranteed to do so if we just stayed in the EU), will now be going down the economic pan solely because of the Brexit.
I don't mean to sound aggressive and I'm certainly not looking for some tit for tat post argument.
But if you ever want to go and have a read of all that stuff and get back to me and explain where and why I'm going wrong, I'd be much obliged.
With love and peace x [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 21:01]
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| Brexit on 21:28 - Feb 7 with 3086 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit on 20:58 - Feb 7 by 1BobbyHazell |
I'm not talking about why people voted. I'm talking about the realities of the EU and membership of it.
You are one of the high profile remainers who I refer to. I have seen some very emotional sweeping statements from you on the subject and a lot of back and forth with your opponents that invariably ends up in narrow reductive accusations/projections by both parties.
I have offered, in different ways in several threads, in an open and friendly manner, some pieces of very well researched work that I genuinely believe many, particularly left leaning, remainers (which I presume you to be) should be more aware of and look into for yourselves about the push by the central power core of the EU towards the creation of legislation that will open the door to a global corporate plutocracy where the desires and profits of foreign corporations supercede sovreign democracy. All tied up in directives that our future generations will be unable to change even when (not if) they realise what situation it has put them in.
Now I'm assuming that that is something you would be very much against but it feels to me with your 'quasi religious' fervour about being pro EU you don't even want to entertain reading the things I have posted and considering their viability. It seems to be easier for you to just ignore all that and claim that all Leavers are utterly ignorant and our country, that was apparently doing so well (and was guaranteed to do so if we just stayed in the EU), will now be going down the economic pan solely because of the Brexit.
I don't mean to sound aggressive and I'm certainly not looking for some tit for tat post argument.
But if you ever want to go and have a read of all that stuff and get back to me and explain where and why I'm going wrong, I'd be much obliged.
With love and peace x [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 21:01]
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OK, I think I'll make this one reply Bobby and we should leave it there. Both our lives are too short.
It strikes me as lacking in self-awareness to say someone makes "very emotional sweeping statements" at one end of a post and accuse them of "quasi religious fervour" at the other, much as I can see you're excited by the phrase.
I'm not "pro EU." Now as ever, you don't seem able to process that someone could have voted Remain simply as the best of two bad options. (While also being unwilling to admit that anyone on the Leave side voted out of anything but rigorous, intellectual opposition to over-arching superstates and corporate expansionism).
The Brexit Britain taking shape is not and will never be anything like the touchy-feely communal paradise of your dreams - it's zero hours, dodgy money tax haven, kissing the arse of Trump and Erdogan (oh, the irony), people with a different skin colour having dogsht put through their letterboxes and the same corporate interests you claimed we were about to be liberated from getting the freest ride in British history. Just as, however noble your motives and diligent your research, you've always been happy to make common cause with bigots and no-more-bendy-banana types.
Live with it.
As I say, that's that. Build yourself an actual straw man and argue with him from now on. I'm having a beer. | | | |
| Brexit on 21:34 - Feb 7 with 3072 views | FredManRave |
| Brexit on 14:04 - Feb 7 by Antti_Heinola |
"There's none who think themselves so wise as those who quote Orwell to make themselves seem wise."
George Orwell. |
“If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation. ”
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| Brexit on 22:05 - Feb 7 with 3022 views | FDC |
| Brexit on 21:28 - Feb 7 by DannytheR |
OK, I think I'll make this one reply Bobby and we should leave it there. Both our lives are too short.
It strikes me as lacking in self-awareness to say someone makes "very emotional sweeping statements" at one end of a post and accuse them of "quasi religious fervour" at the other, much as I can see you're excited by the phrase.
I'm not "pro EU." Now as ever, you don't seem able to process that someone could have voted Remain simply as the best of two bad options. (While also being unwilling to admit that anyone on the Leave side voted out of anything but rigorous, intellectual opposition to over-arching superstates and corporate expansionism).
The Brexit Britain taking shape is not and will never be anything like the touchy-feely communal paradise of your dreams - it's zero hours, dodgy money tax haven, kissing the arse of Trump and Erdogan (oh, the irony), people with a different skin colour having dogsht put through their letterboxes and the same corporate interests you claimed we were about to be liberated from getting the freest ride in British history. Just as, however noble your motives and diligent your research, you've always been happy to make common cause with bigots and no-more-bendy-banana types.
Live with it.
As I say, that's that. Build yourself an actual straw man and argue with him from now on. I'm having a beer. |
I for one am enjoying this radical Lexit |  | | |
| Brexit on 22:27 - Feb 7 with 2986 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit on 21:28 - Feb 7 by DannytheR |
OK, I think I'll make this one reply Bobby and we should leave it there. Both our lives are too short.
It strikes me as lacking in self-awareness to say someone makes "very emotional sweeping statements" at one end of a post and accuse them of "quasi religious fervour" at the other, much as I can see you're excited by the phrase.
I'm not "pro EU." Now as ever, you don't seem able to process that someone could have voted Remain simply as the best of two bad options. (While also being unwilling to admit that anyone on the Leave side voted out of anything but rigorous, intellectual opposition to over-arching superstates and corporate expansionism).
The Brexit Britain taking shape is not and will never be anything like the touchy-feely communal paradise of your dreams - it's zero hours, dodgy money tax haven, kissing the arse of Trump and Erdogan (oh, the irony), people with a different skin colour having dogsht put through their letterboxes and the same corporate interests you claimed we were about to be liberated from getting the freest ride in British history. Just as, however noble your motives and diligent your research, you've always been happy to make common cause with bigots and no-more-bendy-banana types.
Live with it.
As I say, that's that. Build yourself an actual straw man and argue with him from now on. I'm having a beer. |
I'll take that as a no then.
If you want to pretend that you haven't made emotional sweeping statements in the the Brexit threads that's up to you. We both know you have. My quasi religious statement has no emotion attached to it for me, I found its use by another poster in this thread very apt.
Interesting that you use the straw man phrase after having read some of the things you have written in your post. -
"I'm not "pro EU." Now as ever, you don't seem able to process that someone could have voted Remain simply as the best of two bad options. "
I am fully aware that many pro and anti voters, were in their minds, choosing the best of two bad options. Your posts on the subject over the last six months have rarely placed you in this category. You have been aggressive and definitive from the very start. Big sweeping statements about the future Britain the Brexiters have created without ever acknowledging that things were already heading in a bad direction here. You have come across to me as quite rabidly Remain so to hear you say otherwise is interesting and a credit to us having a little more detail/depth in these posts than the common mud slinging and 'you've f*cked it all up for our future' stuff that is quite common on here. I now know you have reservations/negative views on part of the EU. For balance I think much of the EU is a positive thing but it has moved away from some/much of it.
And this is very straw man -
"The Brexit Britain taking shape is not and will never be anything like the touchy-feely communal paradise of your dreams - it's zero hours, dodgy money tax haven, kissing the arse of Trump and Erdogan (oh, the irony), people with a different skin colour having dogsht put through their letterboxes and the same corporate interests you claimed we were about to be liberated from getting the freest ride in British history."
Even before the vote I was making it very clear that my being a Brexiter was absolutely NOTHING to do with a fantasy that we would suddenly be thrown into
a 'touchy feely communal paradise of my dreams'.
Quite the opposite, I was well aware of what our current government would look to do with regard to "the same corporate interests you claimed we were about to be liberated from getting the freest ride in British history." I made that quite clear. I agree with you that those said corporate interests had/have their foot in both camps and have recently posted more about the supposed Brexit Liam Fox, his work signing us up to CETA and the, corporate interest heavy, right wing think tanks that he is thoroughly involved in and the reach of their influence. So as things currently stand that side of things was always going to make its move towards extending its power, be it through EU Ceta like directives or a Tory government happy to sell us into corporate hands. The ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE between those two options is we, the people, can stop or reverse the latter. When people become aware of what is happening and its devastating effects on communities well being they can, through our democracy such as it is, elect representatives who can change the law and free us form the 'zero hour...corporate free ride' you talk of.
If however those laws that created a Corporate plutocracy are EU law there will be NOTHING we can do about it.
So as you rightly say, the two same outcomes, but one where communities are closer to the decison and law making process and retain the right to change, abolish and alter the laws and one where they have no access to it and have to accept its enforcement. An easy if, Hobson in the short term, choice for me.
It was never about now or next year or five years. The big business, big finance grip is too firmly in place for quick magical changes and it has some serious plans, But it is vital we retain the right to make certain laws of our own if,or hopefully when, we wake up to what is currently being put in place upon us.
If you don't believe me, read the research. If you already know better, then no need.
And just for the record I'm not much impressed with this - " you've always been happy to make common cause with bigots".
I'm a mixed race man myself who, growing up in London in the 1970's, knows only too well what racism looks and feels like (literally). And while my rather politically active life hasn't been one based on race issues but rather all communities I've had my fair share of, shall we say, anti bigot scenarios. Luckily my letterbox has been untainted and I can promise you that whatever reaction some over zealous bigots have had, racism in this country is NOTHING like it was when I was growing up.
The very fact that despite my earnest attempts to discuss certain issues in more detail you couldn't resist the bigot like references only goes to strengthen many a leavers complaint about unfair labelling. Are you proud of all the remainers? Happy that Dave, George and Goldman Sachs are your new pals. It's a poor cheap shot Danny and it doesn't help move things on, rather it just keeps things in the name calling arena which is ultimately pretty pointless.
Peace x | | | |
| Brexit on 07:11 - Feb 8 with 2866 views | londonscottish |
| Brexit on 21:34 - Feb 7 by FredManRave |
“If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation. ”
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An optimist is just a pessimist who's not in full possession of the facts. |  |
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| Brexit on 07:34 - Feb 8 with 2844 views | danehoop |
At least 4 pages |  |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| Brexit on 08:30 - Feb 8 with 2812 views | Discodroids |
The Op must be pissing himself laughing.
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| The Duke Of New York. A-Number One.
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| Brexit on 14:27 - Feb 8 with 2699 views | Cliff |
| Brexit on 20:05 - Feb 7 by essextaxiboy |
I would counter those with how many voted remain in fear of " a profound and immediate economic shock" requiring an "emergency budget"
Or " an immediate 18% drop in house prices" of fear of "another war" or being "the back of the queue " .
The Chancellor , The Pm , and The President of the US ..
The bus said " lets fund the NHS instead " no mention of how much by .. the power of suggestion at best IMO . |
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage- |  | | |
| Brexit on 14:35 - Feb 8 with 2848 views | Cliff |
| Brexit on 13:06 - Feb 7 by TGRRRSSS |
This powerful link to educational attainment could stem from the lower qualified tending to feel less confident about their prospects and ability to compete for work in a competitive globalised economy with high levels of migration."
To me this suggests this country is failing in it's education system and is refusing to fund people to the level required for a "globalised world"
Which it is. Look at the doctors stuff at the moment and no mention of the cost of university and the lack of availability in Medicine just as one example.
However we won't mention that bit - we'll just sat "your thick" you can't manage and we'll blame you.
Sinister times |
BTW that's "you're thick" !
PS I voted remain - that's probably why I was able to spot the error | | | |
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