By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Not being racist but surely it has to be a case of if you’re good enough you’ll get the job, this sort of ‘positive discrimination’ can be reverse racist (if that makes sense)
If someone like Jimmy-Floyd at Burton carries on the way he’s started then he’ll get his chance at a bigger club. There’s a reason Keith Curle hasn’t managed at the highest level the same reason that Steve Parkin didn’t, not quite good enough. The colour of skin doesn’t matter.
No you didn't. You "went glib" after my post timed at 19.00 which pointed out that, far from winning anything, you'd totally contradicted yourself.
You know it, the messageboard knows it.
And yes, I've had a lovely evening, thanks.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 23:46]
Then you misunderstood.
There was a developing consensus in this thread that no problem existed with regard to racial inequality in football management employment, and that any steps to address it were wrongful.
In argument to this I set out the basis and evidence on which such a problem does exist, and that it was therefore reasonable to consider positive action to redress.
Having made known the specific question to be answered for credible dispute of my argument, when none came forth I considered the argument won. I am still open to this occurring, but otherwise I suggest those holding the opposing view should recognise it wrong.
I do not consider steps to positively redress an inequality need be/are discriminative.
I have been wholly consistent in my views and posts.
I commented on the thread because I recognise that an ill-informed consensus of no problem existing, and the naivety and ignorance which gives rise to that view, is a big part of the problem itself.
Given the context of the thread I questioned the motivation of posts which appeared expressed, and invited others to find, humour in the perceived incompetence of individuals selected on the basis of race.Given the reply I do not consider it to have been anything malicious.
If you consider fans part of the football institution then this thread is a prime example of how institutionalised racism does exist.
I do not consider your personal view as to what constitutes racism as a reasonable one.
I do not consider you, in your rather angry and abusive posts, to have proved yourself suitably competent in providing a rational argument as to be taken seriously.
Anyone can be subjected to racism or indeed sexism, ageism etc, and UNLESS one has been subject to such a discrimination against them, they WON'T understand what it is like to suffer it. It's like unless you have suffered a heart attack you will never really know what it is like to suffer one. I for one am pissed off with accusations of racism when none has happened, similar to when someone falsely accuses someone of rape when it either didn't happen or indeed was consensual at the time. Just because a black person gets beaten up by white people does not make it a racist attack, same if a white person gets beaten up by a group pf black people. However if I as a white person attacks a black person while calling them a "black bas***d" it is a racist attack.
I am more concerned at the lack of female representation in football, especially in the coaching of the women's game, and that definitely needs addressing. However trying to encourage more involvement of blacks into coaching and managerial roles, with help towards gaining qualifications etc would do no harm, especially IF there is a problem in that area.
Anyone can be subjected to racism or indeed sexism, ageism etc, and UNLESS one has been subject to such a discrimination against them, they WON'T understand what it is like to suffer it. It's like unless you have suffered a heart attack you will never really know what it is like to suffer one. I for one am pissed off with accusations of racism when none has happened, similar to when someone falsely accuses someone of rape when it either didn't happen or indeed was consensual at the time. Just because a black person gets beaten up by white people does not make it a racist attack, same if a white person gets beaten up by a group pf black people. However if I as a white person attacks a black person while calling them a "black bas***d" it is a racist attack.
I am more concerned at the lack of female representation in football, especially in the coaching of the women's game, and that definitely needs addressing. However trying to encourage more involvement of blacks into coaching and managerial roles, with help towards gaining qualifications etc would do no harm, especially IF there is a problem in that area.
I don't like 'Baldism' or 'Gingerisms'. At school i was the ginger kid and by the time I reached my twenties my hair started to receed as well, sort of a double whammy. On top of that I was one of only a few Dale fans in the school which was also a bit of a infliction at the time, so really I was like the runt of the litter.
Anyway, i developed a thick skin and dated ladies who seeked personality over looks, or so they said. Birch Hill hospital Social Club was always good to me, cheap ale and sympathetic nurses, the DJ was crap though!!
A lot of people are discriminated against, it's not right but unfortunately that's life. I often wonder what Hilly thinks when the song 'Baldy Mourhinio' is belted out. Being serious,racial discrimination must be gut wrenching, it must be terrible to be on the receiving end.
I don't like 'Baldism' or 'Gingerisms'. At school i was the ginger kid and by the time I reached my twenties my hair started to receed as well, sort of a double whammy. On top of that I was one of only a few Dale fans in the school which was also a bit of a infliction at the time, so really I was like the runt of the litter.
Anyway, i developed a thick skin and dated ladies who seeked personality over looks, or so they said. Birch Hill hospital Social Club was always good to me, cheap ale and sympathetic nurses, the DJ was crap though!!
A lot of people are discriminated against, it's not right but unfortunately that's life. I often wonder what Hilly thinks when the song 'Baldy Mourhinio' is belted out. Being serious,racial discrimination must be gut wrenching, it must be terrible to be on the receiving end.
Calling Hill "Baldy Mouranio" would now be seen as an insult of course, up to this season it was seen as a compliment, I would have thought.
The main problem with any discrimination is when it leads to physical attacks and lack of job chances due.
When I was at Primary school, I was a lot darker skinned, and I was often called "sambo" and other such remarks. I was targeted as at that time there was not any kids of Asian descent. I will say yes I grew a thick skin, but yes it is not very nice. I now realise that when people come out with such rubbish, it is more down to ignorance and stupidity as anything else. The real evil people will of course use physical violence in some form.
Calling Hill "Baldy Mouranio" would now be seen as an insult of course, up to this season it was seen as a compliment, I would have thought.
The main problem with any discrimination is when it leads to physical attacks and lack of job chances due.
When I was at Primary school, I was a lot darker skinned, and I was often called "sambo" and other such remarks. I was targeted as at that time there was not any kids of Asian descent. I will say yes I grew a thick skin, but yes it is not very nice. I now realise that when people come out with such rubbish, it is more down to ignorance and stupidity as anything else. The real evil people will of course use physical violence in some form.
No, evil people can cause just as much damage by using words, violence isn't needed. My previous post was very tongue in cheek, i was a Dale supporting balding redhead but any name calling was just banter and that's how I accepted it. Targeting individuals with racist behaviour is on a completely different level.
No, evil people can cause just as much damage by using words, violence isn't needed. My previous post was very tongue in cheek, i was a Dale supporting balding redhead but any name calling was just banter and that's how I accepted it. Targeting individuals with racist behaviour is on a completely different level.
as you point out, physical contact has nothing to do with it. Attacking someone, anyone, verbally or physically, or deliberately excluding because they are perceived to 'stand apart' from the crowd is wrong.
If that is done on the grounds of gender, it's sexism, on the grounds of age it's ageism and on the grounds of race, then it's racism.
Let's not forget that in the UK, many cases of racism exist between different ethnic groups based on caste, tribe etc. Many Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians are daily victims of racism, and/or social exclusion in this country without a white man in sight. Even from within their own complex communities.
We need to get away from the idea that racism only involves a white person somewhere in the situation or on the sidelines.
That would be a start.
[Post edited 1 Nov 2015 19:16]
“It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooledâ€
I don't like 'Baldism' or 'Gingerisms'. At school i was the ginger kid and by the time I reached my twenties my hair started to receed as well, sort of a double whammy. On top of that I was one of only a few Dale fans in the school which was also a bit of a infliction at the time, so really I was like the runt of the litter.
Anyway, i developed a thick skin and dated ladies who seeked personality over looks, or so they said. Birch Hill hospital Social Club was always good to me, cheap ale and sympathetic nurses, the DJ was crap though!!
A lot of people are discriminated against, it's not right but unfortunately that's life. I often wonder what Hilly thinks when the song 'Baldy Mourhinio' is belted out. Being serious,racial discrimination must be gut wrenching, it must be terrible to be on the receiving end.
I don't like 'Baldism' or 'Gingerisms'. At school i was the ginger kid and by the time I reached my twenties my hair started to receed as well, sort of a double whammy. On top of that I was one of only a few Dale fans in the school which was also a bit of a infliction at the time, so really I was like the runt of the litter.
Anyway, i developed a thick skin and dated ladies who seeked personality over looks, or so they said. Birch Hill hospital Social Club was always good to me, cheap ale and sympathetic nurses, the DJ was crap though!!
A lot of people are discriminated against, it's not right but unfortunately that's life. I often wonder what Hilly thinks when the song 'Baldy Mourhinio' is belted out. Being serious,racial discrimination must be gut wrenching, it must be terrible to be on the receiving end.
Did this DJ only play one band's tunes?
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
Yes, it was no surprise when the place closed down. The music ranged from Brotherhood of Man tracks to Abba, Fernando being one of his personal favourites. The DJ was instantly recognised by his purple coloured shirt, one of those with massive *uck off collars, you know the ones. Even the mice used to jump on to the mouse traps,it was that bad. Kiss came later.
If your good enough, who cares what colour your skin is. If Paul Ince was white he would still have a chip on both shoulders and a face like a slapped arse, he's just not a nice person. Keith Alexander was a good lower league manager and very well liked, he was a nice person and you could imagine footballers wanting to play for him.
John Barnes and Paul Ince are both very vocal and imply they are being held back because of their colour, they reality is they are both very poor managers.
Charlie Williams thrived in a very tough environment, he was capable of laughing at himself which is always a commendable trait. A much loved comedian with no chip on his shoulder. He was a nice person.
Just watching Sky News and their two presenters are both black which isn't something you normally see, they are excellent at their jobs and it's good to see.
Bottom line, if you are good at your job your colour is irrelevant.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 6:40]
Too true, only person I hear banging this drum on a regular basis is Paul "Judas" Ince. This excuse for a person/manager has been given the boot everywhere he's tried ( without the help of Ray Mathias) because he is crap. Nobody even notices the colour of skin these days. We are all in the football family and the football world. If you are crap you dont get on or you get sacked...simple as. The football industry is results driven and the only real way to improve yourself is to keep trying and learn from your mistakes. Ince is a cock , " Call me the Guvnor" , not down the Boleyn we wont mate!
Yes, if you're no good you'll get the boot, but that's not what the point is. It is that you may be good but not get the chance to prove it. There are a load of managers who never really succeed but keep getting jobs. It does make me wonder why. It wouldn't surprise me if race played some part in new faces not getting a look in. May be also a conservative attitude that won't risk it on an inexperienced candidate.
Tony Collins has to be one of the longest serving black managers in football ... at Rochdale, over 50 years ago. I don't imagine he was "positively discriminated". The fact is, to be successful in sport these days requires luck , timing, opportunity and qualifications and not just a grasp of the game as currently played but also a view as to where the game is going. If all these elements meet then you might argue that the best man got the job but there is much more to consider than just qualifications and track record.
And for the record it was years later that I even considered Collins as being Black - I am far from sure that the "race industry" has done anyone any favours.
I first saw Tony Collins playing on the right wing for Watford in a 3-3 all draw at Spotland one Easter Monday,would`ve been about 1960. Him and Charlie Williams at Doncaster were the only black fellas I can recall in those days,but nobody cared. You could also say that Jimmy Hill who played for Fulham and Coventry was unusual too;he was the only player in the four divisions at the time who had a beard,the famous goatee one! How many players get moved on because a new manager comes in and that player doesn`t fit into his team formation? You can find perceived discrimination in all forms of life,colour,age,gender,proving it is quite another matter.
I first saw Tony Collins playing on the right wing for Watford in a 3-3 all draw at Spotland one Easter Monday,would`ve been about 1960. Him and Charlie Williams at Doncaster were the only black fellas I can recall in those days,but nobody cared. You could also say that Jimmy Hill who played for Fulham and Coventry was unusual too;he was the only player in the four divisions at the time who had a beard,the famous goatee one! How many players get moved on because a new manager comes in and that player doesn`t fit into his team formation? You can find perceived discrimination in all forms of life,colour,age,gender,proving it is quite another matter.
Yes. And to add, and I might be not quite right as I recall, but didn't Brian Clough ostracise his expensive £1m Norwich recruit Justin Fashanu at Forest when he found out he was a shirt-lifter in the early '80's?
Consequently the lad later took his own life, although I don't know if his time at Forest and his suicide were connected, but I'm guessing being a gay footballer will have contributed to his mental state.
And of course, this post gives us the opportunity to watch 'that' goal again!
I first saw Tony Collins playing on the right wing for Watford in a 3-3 all draw at Spotland one Easter Monday,would`ve been about 1960. Him and Charlie Williams at Doncaster were the only black fellas I can recall in those days,but nobody cared. You could also say that Jimmy Hill who played for Fulham and Coventry was unusual too;he was the only player in the four divisions at the time who had a beard,the famous goatee one! How many players get moved on because a new manager comes in and that player doesn`t fit into his team formation? You can find perceived discrimination in all forms of life,colour,age,gender,proving it is quite another matter.
And of course Charlie Williams became a brilliant comedian, appearing very regularly on television, especially on The Comedians. Before being a footballer he had been a miner.
Colour of anyones skin matters not these days - its a load of Bollox - A good manager gets a job while Barnes/Ince/Eyre/Barrow/Parkin - add many others dont - Its not the colour of the skin that matters - Its talent and track record.
If Hill was Black would I give a sh1t - no - Ideally he would be Gay, Black and muslim to placate the Guardian readers - FFS we need to get a grip!!!
Every Team Needs A John Ryan - The Winger Who's a Ringer!!!!!
Colour of anyones skin matters not these days - its a load of Bollox - A good manager gets a job while Barnes/Ince/Eyre/Barrow/Parkin - add many others dont - Its not the colour of the skin that matters - Its talent and track record.
If Hill was Black would I give a sh1t - no - Ideally he would be Gay, Black and muslim to placate the Guardian readers - FFS we need to get a grip!!!
As previously stated in the thread, that ethnic discrimination exists with regard to employment opportunity is established in evidence.
Those who disagree are naive/ignorant as to true facts, and perhaps should educate themselves on matters before making incredibly weak, but still potentially damaging posts.
That the 'Colour of anyones skin matters not these days -its a load of Bollox' is a completely false personal opinion, based on no facts whatsoever, from someone who clearly doesnt have a clue as to what the reality is.
The only real evidence that you have founded your "opinion" on is that there are not many black managers or coaches in the english league - that I don't disagree with. The point I was making is that Barnes was crap having had 3 managers jobs, Ince had a decent start but has since done badly and so why would his C.V. look so attractive? Barnes in particular blames his colour on every opportunity as oppose to being a crap manager at various clubs - his win record at Celtic was 65% which in a league that is so dominated by 2 clubs (at the time) is pathetic.
There are more black footballers in the game today than 15 years ago and as such this will translate to more black coaches and managers in time, this is ignored by the media of course. Racism in football was certainly there in the past but today when 60% of managers in the Premier League are foreign (racism is not purely for those who have black skin remember) it could be argued that those shouting loudest about racism are those who have had the chance of good jobs and made a Horses Cock of it.
Will end post with this question - Barnes, Ince, Carlisle, Collymore, Anderson, Powell, Hughton - of these 7 managers how many would you be happy with managing us? - I would say 2 and thats nothing to do with skin colour but ability of those named!!!
Edit - incidentally those are the 2 that currently have jobs!!!
[Post edited 4 Nov 2015 7:45]
Every Team Needs A John Ryan - The Winger Who's a Ringer!!!!!
As previously stated in the thread, that ethnic discrimination exists with regard to employment opportunity is established in evidence.
Those who disagree are naive/ignorant as to true facts, and perhaps should educate themselves on matters before making incredibly weak, but still potentially damaging posts.
That the 'Colour of anyones skin matters not these days -its a load of Bollox' is a completely false personal opinion, based on no facts whatsoever, from someone who clearly doesnt have a clue as to what the reality is.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2015 23:44]
"That the 'Colour of anyones skin matters not these days -its a load of Bollox' is a completely false personal opinion, based on no facts whatsoever, from someone who clearly doesnt have a clue as to what the reality is."
I think that is the most arrogant thing I've ever seen on this board. TR was simply saying he doesn't give a shit what colour anyone is and you've rounded on him saying his opinion is false and he doesn't have a clue.
I really find the moral high ground you clearly occupy in your head to be a most unpleasant place. Especially when you feel you have the authority to dismiss someone's opinion as a "completely false personal opinion".
Colour of anyones skin matters not these days - its a load of Bollox - A good manager gets a job while Barnes/Ince/Eyre/Barrow/Parkin - add many others dont - Its not the colour of the skin that matters - Its talent and track record.
If Hill was Black would I give a sh1t - no - Ideally he would be Gay, Black and muslim to placate the Guardian readers - FFS we need to get a grip!!!
I'm not sure it's fair to include Parkin in that list.
Of course, his second spell at Dale was poor, but in his first spell he achieved more than the other two put together, particularly if you look at the likes of Holt, Lambert, Murray (loan), etc..
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
