| The return of National Service 07:37 - May 26 with 5655 views | Gwyn737 |
New Tory policy:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpddxy9r4mdo
What’s next? Milk having to be delivered in bottles by a milkman? Penny sweets that actually cost 1p?
It’s gone ‘The Thick of It’ very early.
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| The return of National Service on 18:45 - May 26 with 1316 views | JumpingJackFlash |
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| The return of National Service on 18:53 - May 26 with 1305 views | Whiterockin |
| The return of National Service on 18:27 - May 26 by Gwyn737 |
Absolutely not.
At 18 they are adults. Why (in peacetime) should the state mandate what adults should do with their time?
There are definitely issues with some school behaviour but national service after they’ve finished won’t help.
I’d add that in your and my time we wouldn’t have seen some of the behaviour we see now. That’s at least partly because those children who didn’t want to be there, either just didn’t go or stuck in some special Ed class where nobody cared. |
Why should we have to introduce national service to enforce the discipline that parents are failing to do. Surely the problems are deeper. [Post edited 26 May 19:50]
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| The return of National Service on 21:00 - May 26 with 1205 views | majorraglan |
When I first saw the story in this mornings press I thought it was April Fools Day. It seems poorly thought out, back of a fag packet stuff. Conscripting 30,000 out of around 770,000 eighteen year old kids for 12 months - mental.
While I think there’s definitely a need to provide some young people with a means of developing their skills, a broad brush approach is not required. The kids who need to be targeted are those who are not in education, training or employment not the kids who’re in school and working hard or the kids who’re grafting in a Saturday or Sunday job.
In Wales, as part of the Welsh Bac A level kids have to do a volunteering placement. One of my children (who was a really strong swimmer) volunteered as a swimming coach at a local swimming club. They coached the children and helped the develop the adult volunteer coaches. It was far from easy and involved quite a lot of hard work, including lesson plans for the kids, lesson plans the adult coaches, delivering the session, feed back, reflections, feed back to the coaches etc etc. It also helped them develop their communication skills - it’s not easy for an 18 year old to tell and adult what to do! | | | |
| The return of National Service on 21:06 - May 26 with 1201 views | Boundy |
| The return of National Service on 18:27 - May 26 by Gwyn737 |
Absolutely not.
At 18 they are adults. Why (in peacetime) should the state mandate what adults should do with their time?
There are definitely issues with some school behaviour but national service after they’ve finished won’t help.
I’d add that in your and my time we wouldn’t have seen some of the behaviour we see now. That’s at least partly because those children who didn’t want to be there, either just didn’t go or stuck in some special Ed class where nobody cared. |
So you're effectively against further education ,that's a surprise. I myself and peers didn't always want to attend school but no way would we have behaved the way kids behave in general today, maybe because discipline ( a dirty word these days amongst those with too much influence ) was instilled in us to be at the very least respectful and taught what is right from wrong, all you see these e kids creating mayhem because they know no different and when if at all chastised by their elders you have the parents defending little johnny to the nth degree. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| The return of National Service on 21:31 - May 26 with 1151 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 21:06 - May 26 by Boundy |
So you're effectively against further education ,that's a surprise. I myself and peers didn't always want to attend school but no way would we have behaved the way kids behave in general today, maybe because discipline ( a dirty word these days amongst those with too much influence ) was instilled in us to be at the very least respectful and taught what is right from wrong, all you see these e kids creating mayhem because they know no different and when if at all chastised by their elders you have the parents defending little johnny to the nth degree. |
You’re right. I’m against forced education above the age of 18 i.e. for adults, in the same way I would be against forcing all people to go to university.
If you’ve gone in to the world of work at 18 why on earth should you be made to volunteer for 25 days a year?
You might have caring responsibilities. You might have a manual job that needs rest in between shifts. You might want to play for a sports team on weekends.
When you say you wouldn’t have behaved the way kids do now, do you mean school aged kids? I’d say trying to stop this after ages 18 is a bit late.
I’m sure people said the same thing about mods and rockers, Teddy boys,, punks etc. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 21:32 - May 26 with 1150 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 21:00 - May 26 by majorraglan |
When I first saw the story in this mornings press I thought it was April Fools Day. It seems poorly thought out, back of a fag packet stuff. Conscripting 30,000 out of around 770,000 eighteen year old kids for 12 months - mental.
While I think there’s definitely a need to provide some young people with a means of developing their skills, a broad brush approach is not required. The kids who need to be targeted are those who are not in education, training or employment not the kids who’re in school and working hard or the kids who’re grafting in a Saturday or Sunday job.
In Wales, as part of the Welsh Bac A level kids have to do a volunteering placement. One of my children (who was a really strong swimmer) volunteered as a swimming coach at a local swimming club. They coached the children and helped the develop the adult volunteer coaches. It was far from easy and involved quite a lot of hard work, including lesson plans for the kids, lesson plans the adult coaches, delivering the session, feed back, reflections, feed back to the coaches etc etc. It also helped them develop their communication skills - it’s not easy for an 18 year old to tell and adult what to do! |
That sounds like a much better solution. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 21:47 - May 26 with 1110 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The return of National Service on 21:31 - May 26 by Gwyn737 |
You’re right. I’m against forced education above the age of 18 i.e. for adults, in the same way I would be against forcing all people to go to university.
If you’ve gone in to the world of work at 18 why on earth should you be made to volunteer for 25 days a year?
You might have caring responsibilities. You might have a manual job that needs rest in between shifts. You might want to play for a sports team on weekends.
When you say you wouldn’t have behaved the way kids do now, do you mean school aged kids? I’d say trying to stop this after ages 18 is a bit late.
I’m sure people said the same thing about mods and rockers, Teddy boys,, punks etc. |
Are you saying that after the age of 18 that people cannot learn or be taught new things? In which case trying to rehabilitate prisoners is a waste of time.
Going to University, also a waste of time?
I'm sure that's not what you mean but in my world, you are never to old to learn and people who have been in trouble for all their lives have been rehabilitated, discipline can still be learned. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 21:47 - May 26 with 1106 views | KeithHaynes |
| The return of National Service on 09:46 - May 26 by Whiterockin |
The jails are full so they are buggered. |
Makes you wonder who put them all there 😂 |  |
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| The return of National Service on 21:52 - May 26 with 1089 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 21:47 - May 26 by SullutaCreturned |
Are you saying that after the age of 18 that people cannot learn or be taught new things? In which case trying to rehabilitate prisoners is a waste of time.
Going to University, also a waste of time?
I'm sure that's not what you mean but in my world, you are never to old to learn and people who have been in trouble for all their lives have been rehabilitated, discipline can still be learned. |
The opposite.
They can do whatever they want if it’s their choice.
My point is what if they don’t need to be rehabilitated? What if they’ve behaved, done well in school or in vocational qualifications, have a plan and want to get on with it and improve the country?
Maybe they want to get into shortage occupations that were importing immigrants for - the NHS, engineering, construction etc.
Again, these are adults we’re taking about. They can vote, join the forces, drink, marry or take any job they want.
Why should they have volunteering imposed on them? | | | |
| The return of National Service on 22:04 - May 26 with 1062 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The return of National Service on 21:52 - May 26 by Gwyn737 |
The opposite.
They can do whatever they want if it’s their choice.
My point is what if they don’t need to be rehabilitated? What if they’ve behaved, done well in school or in vocational qualifications, have a plan and want to get on with it and improve the country?
Maybe they want to get into shortage occupations that were importing immigrants for - the NHS, engineering, construction etc.
Again, these are adults we’re taking about. They can vote, join the forces, drink, marry or take any job they want.
Why should they have volunteering imposed on them? |
maybe that's the problem, calling it volinteeringwhen it clearly isn't, is wrong. call it what it is, National Service.
Around 80 countries wordwide have some form of national service. we live in dangerous times again, maybe more dangerous even than the cold war period and we need to be prepared for if the worse happens.
That is why. If war spreads across Europe who will we have to respond with? The smallest UK army for a very long time.
Switzerland is hardly known for going to war, in mdern times anyway but they have national service.
We can agree to disagree but it's an idea I agree with even if I think the tory version is half arsed which surprises nobody because the tories are absolutely useless. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 22:07 - May 26 with 1049 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 22:04 - May 26 by SullutaCreturned |
maybe that's the problem, calling it volinteeringwhen it clearly isn't, is wrong. call it what it is, National Service.
Around 80 countries wordwide have some form of national service. we live in dangerous times again, maybe more dangerous even than the cold war period and we need to be prepared for if the worse happens.
That is why. If war spreads across Europe who will we have to respond with? The smallest UK army for a very long time.
Switzerland is hardly known for going to war, in mdern times anyway but they have national service.
We can agree to disagree but it's an idea I agree with even if I think the tory version is half arsed which surprises nobody because the tories are absolutely useless. |
I think one of the main problems is they called it National Service when it’s only open to 5% of 18 year olds and then only those that choose to do it.
I’m not sure it’ll attract the ones who people think need it. [Post edited 26 May 22:08]
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| The return of National Service on 22:51 - May 26 with 1016 views | onehunglow |
| The return of National Service on 22:07 - May 26 by Gwyn737 |
I think one of the main problems is they called it National Service when it’s only open to 5% of 18 year olds and then only those that choose to do it.
I’m not sure it’ll attract the ones who people think need it. [Post edited 26 May 22:08]
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Good point.
The ones who need direction aren’t able to see past the best mobile and the juiciest girl on the block | |
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| The return of National Service on 23:33 - May 26 with 998 views | swan65split |
in my 70s as kid i was looking forward to NS , then r was stopped, i applied at 16 for the services but got an apprenticeship before any replies, in fact they sought me out to join....thats another story!
but a different kettle of fish these days , it will open a can of worms and if applied could cost a lot more than the money they have forecast, and some other stuff. as it is i see it as a big red herring , vote attracter and own goal. |  | | |
| The return of National Service on 00:42 - May 27 with 971 views | Robbie |
The UK defence policy , a few Eurofighter jets and some state of the art ships allegedly .
Yet our Army now need to include and educate wannabe ganstas , street cred idols , innit.
Sure the Armed Forces will welcome this Sunak pledge , they have enough to do now .
Jails are full , early or soft option of day release , care in the community to fit it now .
Murderers and serious criminals on a daily walkabout , but they are not a threat anymore.
A vote winner for his ideas to many , maybe another failing , like his Rwanda plan . | | | |
| The return of National Service on 09:10 - May 27 with 890 views | GVJack |
I have 2 sons under the age of 16 and am in support of a form of National Service within reason.
I am in no way supportive of them being made to sign up to a role that would result in them directly involved in combat. However, support roles for the military where they could learn new skills (Engineering/Driving/Administration/Logistics) etc i'd be fully in support for (as well as other trades).
Do I think every young person should be called up? No... Some children have career plans where they may want to go on to university and have professional jobs in say medical, law or technology roles.
I would however support a programme where young adults are supported via a National Service Programme where they have not gone on to further education, secured a job or apprenticeship. These are the individuals who need support and guidance for the future, and if they can help out the national cause at the same time then I'm all for it. Not sure what the cost would be (for this scaled down group) but these are the individuals who end up on the benefits system in the future, so hopefully a decent % of that can be avoided meaning less spent on benefits and pressure on our NHS. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 09:24 - May 27 with 884 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 09:10 - May 27 by GVJack |
I have 2 sons under the age of 16 and am in support of a form of National Service within reason.
I am in no way supportive of them being made to sign up to a role that would result in them directly involved in combat. However, support roles for the military where they could learn new skills (Engineering/Driving/Administration/Logistics) etc i'd be fully in support for (as well as other trades).
Do I think every young person should be called up? No... Some children have career plans where they may want to go on to university and have professional jobs in say medical, law or technology roles.
I would however support a programme where young adults are supported via a National Service Programme where they have not gone on to further education, secured a job or apprenticeship. These are the individuals who need support and guidance for the future, and if they can help out the national cause at the same time then I'm all for it. Not sure what the cost would be (for this scaled down group) but these are the individuals who end up on the benefits system in the future, so hopefully a decent % of that can be avoided meaning less spent on benefits and pressure on our NHS. |
I agree with everything you’ve said.
So it shouldn’t be called National Service because the excellent points you make reflect a different type of program.
And as you say it shouldn't be mandatory. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 13:34 - May 27 with 830 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The return of National Service on 09:10 - May 27 by GVJack |
I have 2 sons under the age of 16 and am in support of a form of National Service within reason.
I am in no way supportive of them being made to sign up to a role that would result in them directly involved in combat. However, support roles for the military where they could learn new skills (Engineering/Driving/Administration/Logistics) etc i'd be fully in support for (as well as other trades).
Do I think every young person should be called up? No... Some children have career plans where they may want to go on to university and have professional jobs in say medical, law or technology roles.
I would however support a programme where young adults are supported via a National Service Programme where they have not gone on to further education, secured a job or apprenticeship. These are the individuals who need support and guidance for the future, and if they can help out the national cause at the same time then I'm all for it. Not sure what the cost would be (for this scaled down group) but these are the individuals who end up on the benefits system in the future, so hopefully a decent % of that can be avoided meaning less spent on benefits and pressure on our NHS. |
I said something similar earlier but you just put it so much better than I did.
Maybe calling it a national apprenticeship scheme is a better idea. Offer some of those places in the armed forces for those that want to.
We used to have big apprenticeship schemes but succesive governments and businesses scaled down and ruined it to the point that we needed immigrants to fill skilled jobs and the companies loved it because these foreign workers wee invariably cheaper.
Until we instil a deentwork ethic in our young again we will continue down this path, skills shortages, foreign workers and people not being abe to get tradesmen/women to their house and those that do turn up will be very expensive. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 15:06 - May 27 with 787 views | controversial_jack |
| The return of National Service on 09:10 - May 27 by GVJack |
I have 2 sons under the age of 16 and am in support of a form of National Service within reason.
I am in no way supportive of them being made to sign up to a role that would result in them directly involved in combat. However, support roles for the military where they could learn new skills (Engineering/Driving/Administration/Logistics) etc i'd be fully in support for (as well as other trades).
Do I think every young person should be called up? No... Some children have career plans where they may want to go on to university and have professional jobs in say medical, law or technology roles.
I would however support a programme where young adults are supported via a National Service Programme where they have not gone on to further education, secured a job or apprenticeship. These are the individuals who need support and guidance for the future, and if they can help out the national cause at the same time then I'm all for it. Not sure what the cost would be (for this scaled down group) but these are the individuals who end up on the benefits system in the future, so hopefully a decent % of that can be avoided meaning less spent on benefits and pressure on our NHS. |
That's what happened last time we had it, many were sent to their deaths to support out colonialism and oppression overseas | | | |
| The return of National Service on 15:42 - May 27 with 765 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 15:06 - May 27 by controversial_jack |
That's what happened last time we had it, many were sent to their deaths to support out colonialism and oppression overseas |
The point I keep trying to make is this isn’t ‘it’.
Posters keep stating what a good idea it for instilling discipline in kids or providing training for 18 year olds yet this policy doesn’t really do either of these things.
Nobody is being sent to war either. The 5% available for military service is in things like cyber security. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 16:26 - May 27 with 717 views | majorraglan |
Just read that the bulk of the funding for this scheme will come from scrapping the shared prosperity scheme which was introduced to redistribute cash and level up post Brexit. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 17:00 - May 27 with 692 views | controversial_jack |
| The return of National Service on 15:42 - May 27 by Gwyn737 |
The point I keep trying to make is this isn’t ‘it’.
Posters keep stating what a good idea it for instilling discipline in kids or providing training for 18 year olds yet this policy doesn’t really do either of these things.
Nobody is being sent to war either. The 5% available for military service is in things like cyber security. |
Nobody being sent to wars, you don't know this yet. Anything would be possible with this govt | | | |
| The return of National Service on 17:19 - May 27 with 671 views | Whiterockin |
Tory policies actually make no difference because they are going to take a hiding. It's just posturing on Sunaks part. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 18:54 - May 27 with 617 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 16:26 - May 27 by majorraglan |
Just read that the bulk of the funding for this scheme will come from scrapping the shared prosperity scheme which was introduced to redistribute cash and level up post Brexit. |
Yep.
And from a government who has cut 15% from 16-19 education, cut youth services by 70%, overseen record rises in rent and whacked up interest on student loan repayments.
Not a lot of reciprocity going on, is there? | | | |
| The return of National Service on 19:21 - May 27 with 605 views | AnotherJohn |
I'm not sure about this particular scheme which looks like a rabbit pulled from a hat, but I do worry about what appears to be a widespread disdain for military service and a perception that strong defences are an outdated concept. It is as though too many of us now live is this cosy liberal bubble, in which we assume we are protected by something called the international rule-based order and war in Europe is impossible. Actually, outside the bubble there are powerful authoritarian states who don't subscribe to this liberal order, and may well seek to do us harm. In many other countries a period of military service, or at least a period of training, is mandatory because governments realise that national defence is a real issue. I don't think there is anything old fashioned about that. Nor if push comes to shove will participation be optional. | | | |
| The return of National Service on 19:39 - May 27 with 588 views | Gwyn737 |
| The return of National Service on 19:21 - May 27 by AnotherJohn |
I'm not sure about this particular scheme which looks like a rabbit pulled from a hat, but I do worry about what appears to be a widespread disdain for military service and a perception that strong defences are an outdated concept. It is as though too many of us now live is this cosy liberal bubble, in which we assume we are protected by something called the international rule-based order and war in Europe is impossible. Actually, outside the bubble there are powerful authoritarian states who don't subscribe to this liberal order, and may well seek to do us harm. In many other countries a period of military service, or at least a period of training, is mandatory because governments realise that national defence is a real issue. I don't think there is anything old fashioned about that. Nor if push comes to shove will participation be optional. |
I think (or hope) that if there was a concerted push to give young people opportunities by encouraging joining the forces people would be more for it.
I know I would be. | | | |
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