| 3rd Round 22:30 - Aug 24 with 14261 views | daveB |
Warburton is going to go mad about this but next round will be the 21st just after Bristol City at home, we then have West Brom on the Friday |  | | |  |
| 3rd Round on 18:17 - Aug 25 with 2580 views | WatfordR |
Presuming we'd all be happy to see West Brom beat Arsenal tonight. Not so much of an advantage for them in their Friday game with us. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 18:27]
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| 3rd Round on 18:23 - Aug 25 with 2558 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| 3rd Round on 18:17 - Aug 25 by WatfordR |
Presuming we'd all be happy to see West Brom beat Arsenal tonight. Not so much of an advantage for them in their Friday game with us. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 18:27]
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Good point.
Boing, Boing! Baggies, Baggies! |  |
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| 3rd Round on 18:31 - Aug 25 with 2530 views | qpr_1968 |
| 3rd Round on 17:49 - Aug 25 by Northernr |
I will engage with this once, and then return to taking the pis out of it.
It is not 1976 any more, it says that on the calendar. I think we probably agree so far, though, sometimes, reading your posts, I'm not even sure about this.
I actually also agree, and have written many times for this site, that cup competitions have been horribly devalued to the point of extinction, in favour of league competitions those doing the devaluing have no hope of winning. The League Cup, and increasingly the FA Cup, are being ruined not by Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd etc, who still tend to contest the majority of the finals, but by Burnley, West Ham, Palace, QPR, Birmingham, Blackburn etc, playing weakened teams in them because of some perceived threat to their precious league form, even though they've no chance of winning the league. Burnley ditching out of the only thing they're ever likely to win for the rest of time, because they think it might stop them finishing seventeenth in the Premier League, which is now the sum total of their ambition. Football should be about medals, and trophies, and winning things, and Wembley, and getting into Europe. Not starting every year with the sole purpose of finishing fourth bottom, banking the money, getting out of the cups in the first round, and getting off to Mykonos as soon as possible. It's also been shown, and again I write this a lot in my previews and reports, that cup runs can be momentum and confidence building, for teams and crowds, and Brentford (sorry I have to mention them here because it's a fact they got to the semi-final last year, but please don't fixate on this word of the post again), Newcastle, Bournemouth, Leicester and Brighton all combined promotion from this league with a run to the League Cup quarter finals.
I think we probably agree on all this together so far, right? We probably part a little on things like QPR's 2010/11, where the aim was promotion, and the promotion hung on people like Clint Hill, Shaun Derry and Heidar Helguson who absolutely did not need the extra games. That team lost Jamie Mackie one year, and Ale Faurlin the next, in cup games they didn't need, to serious injury. I would potentially argue, given the aim this year, and the size of our squad, that we're in that territory again now. Johansen, Austin are this year's Derry and Hill, talismanic figures who need to be bubble wrapped. Willock and Chair this year's Mackie and Faurlin. The difference here is QPR would be ditching out in favour of something they can realistically win, as opposed to Schteve nonsing out of that Blackpool game the other year to continue our quest for sixteenth with a thrashing at Swansea at the weekend anyway. Which, like you, I was furious about, and wrote as much.
Where we certainly disagree is your propensity to don the pipe and slippers and turn every argument about everything into a nostalgic trawl back 45 years. You do it over fixture pile up, squad rotation, manager interviews and more. Well back in 1976 teams used to play 80 games a season with squads of 14. Well back in 1976 managers would come out afterwards and call their 21 year old full back a cnt publicly. (Exageration for effect).
It is not 1976 any more. If you don't want to believe the sport has moved on and evolved, is faster, is more fitness and physicality based, then fine. You're wrong, but fine. What you cannot deny is science has moved on. We understand far more about the human body and the human mind. We understand that you can't put players through 60 game seasons in squads of 14 any more without doing lasting damage. We understand you can't have players heading footballs that weigh half a tonne, and soak up the rain water, any more. Yeh in the 1970s you did a 60 game season with 14 players, and the "physio" was some bloke who ran on with a bucket of icy cold water and a sponge, woop de do, bully for you, when men were men, grrrrrr. Well, an enormous proportion of those poor men now suffer crippling injuries in their latter life, knee, hip, ankle problems that are never going away, chronic pain. More and more and more and more of them have dementia and alzheimers. You want to flog Ilias Chair to death for your entertainment for the next ten years, have him retire way earlier than players do nowadays, and then have his mrs push him around town on wheels from the age of 50 onwards then that's your business, but you should reflect on it.
You want the manager to come out and call the players out publicly, like the great characters of the past did, because you find the post match interviews boring and wish Malcolm Allison was still around. They don't do it because it doesn't work. If it did Peter Reid would still have a job, throwing crockery at 19 year old boys and screaming his fcking head off. If it worked, people would do it. It doesn't, so they don't.
They don't do any of this any more, because it doesn't work any more. The tiny squads, the no squad rotation, the same team every week, the public calling out of players, this was a thing once in the same way that they put lead in our petrol in 1976, and they put asbestos in the roof of power stations and had people like my grandad pull it all out with a garden rake in 1976, and we cooked with lard in 1976, and kids went to bonfire night parties in shell suits and so on and on and on and on. Time moves on, science moves on, knowledge moves on. We learn and we improve.
And if I'm wrong, why is nobody doing it any more? Why isn't there a single professional football club anywhere in the world trying to do a 60 game season with 14 players? Why isn't there a manager at the top of the game who regularly comes out after games and slags his own players off?
Because it doesn't work. It doesn't work because 1976 was 45 fcking years ago and things change. Whatever fcking Beckett may say. |
it don't work cause it ain't a sport no more, its a buisiness......and money talks. |  |
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| 3rd Round on 19:04 - Aug 25 with 2468 views | Stainrod |
| 3rd Round on 18:31 - Aug 25 by qpr_1968 |
it don't work cause it ain't a sport no more, its a buisiness......and money talks. |
That doesn't really address the point. The miles alone that a player runs now and the speeds they do so at are off the scale compared to back in the day. I mean, we could go back to physios getting their "magic spray" out and telling players to "man up" when they pull a hamstring, but they are probably going to just be injured longer.
One of the many major improvements at the club is how we manage fitness - for cost reasons we have recruited some players with dodgy injury records (Odubajo, Austin, Jordi, Amos) and for the most part due to a good medical team and squad rotation we have got decent game time out of them.
I do understand why a Rangers fan would be nostalgic because the 70s was the club's golden era. I missed the real glory days but for me the likes of Tony Currie will always mean more to me than the next player we bring in, because it probably means more to you as a kid and there was a real swashbuckling style. But you also have to acknowledge that Adel could do things with a football that even Bowles or Marsh couldn't. The game in so many ways is a better spectacle.
Plus I don't miss the violence, racism, rubbish pitches etc. My frustration with the club is where they still haven't moved into the 21st century - to organise a ticketing system that works, sell food that you want to eat, have a website that doesn't require a test of patience and lots of swearing, actually making sensible plans to move to a ground that could make us sustainable.
Much as we all of a certain age like a bit of Life on Mars wallowing, I'm not sure many of us would actually enjoy the reality. | | | |
| 3rd Round on 19:22 - Aug 25 with 2428 views | aston_hoop |
Baggies giving first starts to 6 kids against a senior Arsenal side with Odegaard, Saka, Lacazette and Aubameyang as the attacking 4. Fair to say they'll get a nice rest before playing us |  |
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| 3rd Round on 20:14 - Aug 25 with 2359 views | stainrods_elbow |
| 3rd Round on 18:31 - Aug 25 by qpr_1968 |
it don't work cause it ain't a sport no more, its a buisiness......and money talks. |
For some reason (sorry), I hadn't read your long post, Clive. Anyway, I've read it now, and thanks for going to so much articulate trouble to telling me why I'm 'wrong'. Seriously, though, you make some good points with your customary vitality and verve, and I really admire you as a writer. It's just a shame, I think, you apparently feel a need to 'win' the argyment in the end.
Not all change in football in the last 30-40 years has been bad, sure. Improvements in players' nutrition and refuelling - check. Some aspects of sports science and injury management - check. I would also, on balance, be less than glad if we still had homophobes like Brian Clough ruining the mind of Justin Fashanu (for all Fashanu's apparently flashy flaws), or racist thugs like Millwall's 'hard core' tearing up seats at Luton still running the show (though now some of them are - still - fan-terrorists at Wembley, as we saw in the Euros semi). After those concessions, though, I'm already
struggling.
The 'rap sheet' in the other direction is far longer and darker. The corporate rebranding of the entire industry, to the extent that Rs fans report this week on not actually being able to see the game because of the brightness of advertising - go figure! The devaluation of both domestic competitions by the collusion of the authorities and clubs. The imposition of massively inflationary all-seater stadia to socially reengineer football crowds, post-Hillsborough. The cynical time-wasting, simulation and non-playing of football, which is getting worse and worse, is clearly tolerated and even facilitated by the game's officials, and seems to be increasingly accepted and even praised by everyone from dotorgers to Andy Sinton. All of which is only to scratch the surface, sad to say. I've watched QPR across five decades, and anyone who thinks football is half as atmospheric, fraught, fun and compelling now as it was when it started - well, let's agree to differ!
If you or others want to paint me as some kind of nostalgic reactionary for pointing all of this out, Clive, that's fine, I don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm mainly exaggerating (but only a little) at times to compensate some of the excruciating collusion and uncritical over-identification with the 'business side' of QPR/football on these boards - a symptom of which was the ludicrously over-hyped contract extension of Luke Freeman not too long ago, which was quite clearly arranged in order to sell him a few months later at a prescribed fee and had nothing whatsoever to do with the player 'commiting his future' to QPR (as advertised by the club, and apparently stupidly celebrated by some fans at the time). The same thing recently happened with Chair, as though he'd made some kind of fabulously sacramental pledge. Fans who swallow this kind of thing are, I'm sorry to say, mugs, though I take no pleasure in pointing it out, because I feel love for all (well most) Rs fans just because they are fans.
Still, however joyously incisive your writing can be, Clive, for apparently tragic obsessives like me, whatever you say fails to convinces me, I'm afraid, that the contemporary determination to wrap 'professional athletes' in cotton wool has not gone probably irreclaimably far. For more recent evidence, look at that toerag Tevez' antics refusing to play for Mancini. It also wasn't very long ago that the likes of Bosingwa was refusing to do their job and sit on the bench for our club, which, for all his flaws, Redknapp at least had the guts and decency to tell fans the truth about . At Chelsea, before Mourinho was ousted, the players had such contempt for fans, as well as their own profession, that they palpably downed tools en masse, and (briefly) earned the ire of most of Stamford Bridge, who realised what was really going on. (Personally, I would never have watched any of those scumbags again after that, but I'm old-fashioned, of course.) If anyone thinks that could never happen at QPR, think again! These are just two instances, and there are many more, but all of it is inseparable from a toxic culture of spoiled players, ego-massaging mediatisation, 'expectation managment' and fan disenfranchisement.
It's a controversial area, I realise, and others may disagree, but, in my view, if the club had found its soul with Rio Ferdinand (with the player's agreement) and made a statement as to what was going on for him behind the scenes, there would, I'm sure, have been massive support and love for him that would have helped to unite the club at a terrible time on the field, instead of fermenting the misinformed resentment as a result of people feeling ripped-off and angry. But of course the term 'football club' is a modern misnomer. A modern football club is more like a private business or protected cult, whose fan 'members' are more often that not treated like abused children - told how 'special' they are while being denied honest and authentic dialogue about anything that matters.
A balanced and 'respectful' comment (to use a word Warburton for me tellingly over-uses) on Charlie's performance vs Barnsley, for example, would have been something along the following lines. 'Charlie will know he's had a poor game, but we want the fans to know he has been carrying an injury (if true), and though he will need to do better if he's to hold his place, nevertheless he came up with the equaliser in a way that I hope people will agree vindicated my decision to leave him on the pitch. With his quality, he can always do that.' Anyone who would have a problem with that (from the player to the most modern fan) needs to have a word with themselves.
Sorry for the protracted, decade-spanning, broad-brush micro-lecture, Clive. You're right and I'm right in different ways, even if you feel the need to tell me I'm wrong. QPR is a broad and inter-generational church. Can we all be right in our own ways?
The final line below the quoted post, however, made my heart sink. (It was doing so well, and then, sorry, someone went and f*cked it up.) It could have come from Ian Taylor himself. If that poster wants to endorse and identify with that 'money talks' schtick, good luck to you. I'm a fan in the old-fashioned mould - unashamed, irrational, devout, loving, and angry. I love QPR because I love the game we have traditionally played, a passing game of pride and panache. Not because I need to support a 'business plan'. Not because I need to collude rather than call out 'manager speak'. Not because I need to over-identify with the job of pen pushers like Lee Hoos. Football clubs are there to entertain us, and that's all they're for.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:44]
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| 3rd Round on 20:21 - Aug 25 with 2350 views | qpr_1968 |
| 3rd Round on 20:14 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
For some reason (sorry), I hadn't read your long post, Clive. Anyway, I've read it now, and thanks for going to so much articulate trouble to telling me why I'm 'wrong'. Seriously, though, you make some good points with your customary vitality and verve, and I really admire you as a writer. It's just a shame, I think, you apparently feel a need to 'win' the argyment in the end.
Not all change in football in the last 30-40 years has been bad, sure. Improvements in players' nutrition and refuelling - check. Some aspects of sports science and injury management - check. I would also, on balance, be less than glad if we still had homophobes like Brian Clough ruining the mind of Justin Fashanu (for all Fashanu's apparently flashy flaws), or racist thugs like Millwall's 'hard core' tearing up seats at Luton still running the show (though now some of them are - still - fan-terrorists at Wembley, as we saw in the Euros semi). After those concessions, though, I'm already
struggling.
The 'rap sheet' in the other direction is far longer and darker. The corporate rebranding of the entire industry, to the extent that Rs fans report this week on not actually being able to see the game because of the brightness of advertising - go figure! The devaluation of both domestic competitions by the collusion of the authorities and clubs. The imposition of massively inflationary all-seater stadia to socially reengineer football crowds, post-Hillsborough. The cynical time-wasting, simulation and non-playing of football, which is getting worse and worse, is clearly tolerated and even facilitated by the game's officials, and seems to be increasingly accepted and even praised by everyone from dotorgers to Andy Sinton. All of which is only to scratch the surface, sad to say. I've watched QPR across five decades, and anyone who thinks football is half as atmospheric, fraught, fun and compelling now as it was when it started - well, let's agree to differ!
If you or others want to paint me as some kind of nostalgic reactionary for pointing all of this out, Clive, that's fine, I don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm mainly exaggerating (but only a little) at times to compensate some of the excruciating collusion and uncritical over-identification with the 'business side' of QPR/football on these boards - a symptom of which was the ludicrously over-hyped contract extension of Luke Freeman not too long ago, which was quite clearly arranged in order to sell him a few months later at a prescribed fee and had nothing whatsoever to do with the player 'commiting his future' to QPR (as advertised by the club, and apparently stupidly celebrated by some fans at the time). The same thing recently happened with Chair, as though he'd made some kind of fabulously sacramental pledge. Fans who swallow this kind of thing are, I'm sorry to say, mugs, though I take no pleasure in pointing it out, because I feel love for all (well most) Rs fans just because they are fans.
Still, however joyously incisive your writing can be, Clive, for apparently tragic obsessives like me, whatever you say fails to convinces me, I'm afraid, that the contemporary determination to wrap 'professional athletes' in cotton wool has not gone probably irreclaimably far. For more recent evidence, look at that toerag Tevez' antics refusing to play for Mancini. It also wasn't very long ago that the likes of Bosingwa was refusing to do their job and sit on the bench for our club, which, for all his flaws, Redknapp at least had the guts and decency to tell fans the truth about . At Chelsea, before Mourinho was ousted, the players had such contempt for fans, as well as their own profession, that they palpably downed tools en masse, and (briefly) earned the ire of most of Stamford Bridge, who realised what was really going on. (Personally, I would never have watched any of those scumbags again after that, but I'm old-fashioned, of course.) If anyone thinks that could never happen at QPR, think again! These are just two instances, and there are many more, but all of it is inseparable from a toxic culture of spoiled players, ego-massaging mediatisation, 'expectation managment' and fan disenfranchisement.
It's a controversial area, I realise, and others may disagree, but, in my view, if the club had found its soul with Rio Ferdinand (with the player's agreement) and made a statement as to what was going on for him behind the scenes, there would, I'm sure, have been massive support and love for him that would have helped to unite the club at a terrible time on the field, instead of fermenting the misinformed resentment as a result of people feeling ripped-off and angry. But of course the term 'football club' is a modern misnomer. A modern football club is more like a private business or protected cult, whose fan 'members' are more often that not treated like abused children - told how 'special' they are while being denied honest and authentic dialogue about anything that matters.
A balanced and 'respectful' comment (to use a word Warburton for me tellingly over-uses) on Charlie's performance vs Barnsley, for example, would have been something along the following lines. 'Charlie will know he's had a poor game, but we want the fans to know he has been carrying an injury (if true), and though he will need to do better if he's to hold his place, nevertheless he came up with the equaliser in a way that I hope people will agree vindicated my decision to leave him on the pitch. With his quality, he can always do that.' Anyone who would have a problem with that (from the player to the most modern fan) needs to have a word with themselves.
Sorry for the protracted, decade-spanning, broad-brush micro-lecture, Clive. You're right and I'm right in different ways, even if you feel the need to tell me I'm wrong. QPR is a broad and inter-generational church. Can we all be right in our own ways?
The final line below the quoted post, however, made my heart sink. (It was doing so well, and then, sorry, someone went and f*cked it up.) It could have come from Ian Taylor himself. If that poster wants to endorse and identify with that 'money talks' schtick, good luck to you. I'm a fan in the old-fashioned mould - unashamed, irrational, devout, loving, and angry. I love QPR because I love the game we have traditionally played, a passing game of pride and panache. Not because I need to support a 'business plan'. Not because I need to collude rather than call out 'manager speak'. Not because I need to over-identify with the job of pen pushers like Lee Hoos. Football clubs are there to entertain us, and that's all they're for.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:44]
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good post. | |
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| 3rd Round on 20:29 - Aug 25 with 2335 views | rsonist |
"At Leicester, we had Jock Wallace, a legend at Rangers, but not for me as a manager. He was a Marine. We had runs on sand-dunes, running until we threw up. I learned a lot from that, never treating a player that way. There’s a fine balance. "
Warbs, on his time as a player. In 1978. |  | | |
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| 3rd Round on 20:32 - Aug 25 with 2327 views | distortR |
it's absolutely disgraceful.
(Can't be arsed reading thread so don't really know what it's about, but I like to feel involved) | | | |
| 3rd Round on 20:37 - Aug 25 with 2294 views | gazza1 |
Wow.....a lot of passion there. I read it all but it blew my mind!!!!
I wonder, one hell of a lot; about how players from the 60's & 70's would fair in football nowadays and I cannot make my mind up.
One other thing that plays on my mind is all this moaning about playing Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday.....they done it years ago but its not acceptable to many now. I struggle to get my head around it.
Oh 3rd round.....an easy tie would be good. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:38]
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| 3rd Round on 20:41 - Aug 25 with 2295 views | Northernr |
| 3rd Round on 20:14 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
For some reason (sorry), I hadn't read your long post, Clive. Anyway, I've read it now, and thanks for going to so much articulate trouble to telling me why I'm 'wrong'. Seriously, though, you make some good points with your customary vitality and verve, and I really admire you as a writer. It's just a shame, I think, you apparently feel a need to 'win' the argyment in the end.
Not all change in football in the last 30-40 years has been bad, sure. Improvements in players' nutrition and refuelling - check. Some aspects of sports science and injury management - check. I would also, on balance, be less than glad if we still had homophobes like Brian Clough ruining the mind of Justin Fashanu (for all Fashanu's apparently flashy flaws), or racist thugs like Millwall's 'hard core' tearing up seats at Luton still running the show (though now some of them are - still - fan-terrorists at Wembley, as we saw in the Euros semi). After those concessions, though, I'm already
struggling.
The 'rap sheet' in the other direction is far longer and darker. The corporate rebranding of the entire industry, to the extent that Rs fans report this week on not actually being able to see the game because of the brightness of advertising - go figure! The devaluation of both domestic competitions by the collusion of the authorities and clubs. The imposition of massively inflationary all-seater stadia to socially reengineer football crowds, post-Hillsborough. The cynical time-wasting, simulation and non-playing of football, which is getting worse and worse, is clearly tolerated and even facilitated by the game's officials, and seems to be increasingly accepted and even praised by everyone from dotorgers to Andy Sinton. All of which is only to scratch the surface, sad to say. I've watched QPR across five decades, and anyone who thinks football is half as atmospheric, fraught, fun and compelling now as it was when it started - well, let's agree to differ!
If you or others want to paint me as some kind of nostalgic reactionary for pointing all of this out, Clive, that's fine, I don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm mainly exaggerating (but only a little) at times to compensate some of the excruciating collusion and uncritical over-identification with the 'business side' of QPR/football on these boards - a symptom of which was the ludicrously over-hyped contract extension of Luke Freeman not too long ago, which was quite clearly arranged in order to sell him a few months later at a prescribed fee and had nothing whatsoever to do with the player 'commiting his future' to QPR (as advertised by the club, and apparently stupidly celebrated by some fans at the time). The same thing recently happened with Chair, as though he'd made some kind of fabulously sacramental pledge. Fans who swallow this kind of thing are, I'm sorry to say, mugs, though I take no pleasure in pointing it out, because I feel love for all (well most) Rs fans just because they are fans.
Still, however joyously incisive your writing can be, Clive, for apparently tragic obsessives like me, whatever you say fails to convinces me, I'm afraid, that the contemporary determination to wrap 'professional athletes' in cotton wool has not gone probably irreclaimably far. For more recent evidence, look at that toerag Tevez' antics refusing to play for Mancini. It also wasn't very long ago that the likes of Bosingwa was refusing to do their job and sit on the bench for our club, which, for all his flaws, Redknapp at least had the guts and decency to tell fans the truth about . At Chelsea, before Mourinho was ousted, the players had such contempt for fans, as well as their own profession, that they palpably downed tools en masse, and (briefly) earned the ire of most of Stamford Bridge, who realised what was really going on. (Personally, I would never have watched any of those scumbags again after that, but I'm old-fashioned, of course.) If anyone thinks that could never happen at QPR, think again! These are just two instances, and there are many more, but all of it is inseparable from a toxic culture of spoiled players, ego-massaging mediatisation, 'expectation managment' and fan disenfranchisement.
It's a controversial area, I realise, and others may disagree, but, in my view, if the club had found its soul with Rio Ferdinand (with the player's agreement) and made a statement as to what was going on for him behind the scenes, there would, I'm sure, have been massive support and love for him that would have helped to unite the club at a terrible time on the field, instead of fermenting the misinformed resentment as a result of people feeling ripped-off and angry. But of course the term 'football club' is a modern misnomer. A modern football club is more like a private business or protected cult, whose fan 'members' are more often that not treated like abused children - told how 'special' they are while being denied honest and authentic dialogue about anything that matters.
A balanced and 'respectful' comment (to use a word Warburton for me tellingly over-uses) on Charlie's performance vs Barnsley, for example, would have been something along the following lines. 'Charlie will know he's had a poor game, but we want the fans to know he has been carrying an injury (if true), and though he will need to do better if he's to hold his place, nevertheless he came up with the equaliser in a way that I hope people will agree vindicated my decision to leave him on the pitch. With his quality, he can always do that.' Anyone who would have a problem with that (from the player to the most modern fan) needs to have a word with themselves.
Sorry for the protracted, decade-spanning, broad-brush micro-lecture, Clive. You're right and I'm right in different ways, even if you feel the need to tell me I'm wrong. QPR is a broad and inter-generational church. Can we all be right in our own ways?
The final line below the quoted post, however, made my heart sink. (It was doing so well, and then, sorry, someone went and f*cked it up.) It could have come from Ian Taylor himself. If that poster wants to endorse and identify with that 'money talks' schtick, good luck to you. I'm a fan in the old-fashioned mould - unashamed, irrational, devout, loving, and angry. I love QPR because I love the game we have traditionally played, a passing game of pride and panache. Not because I need to support a 'business plan'. Not because I need to collude rather than call out 'manager speak'. Not because I need to over-identify with the job of pen pushers like Lee Hoos. Football clubs are there to entertain us, and that's all they're for.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:44]
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Completely avoids the issue of historic injury and dementia neatly.
Says a load of stuff that misrepresents what I've said and what I believed, because you know I hate the whole 'business of football' stuff and I know you know that because you read this site. The difference is I'm pragmatic about it, it is how it is, QPR are right to adapt to that and try to compete within it, by selling Eze and reinvesting, by selling Dickie in the future and reinvesting. The random rant about Luke Freeman - look what we spent that money on, we got better without him by every measurement.
And as for me need to "win the argument" - I was quite happy taking the piss, you told me to respond properly to your post, so I responded. I will now return to taking the pis.
We actually agree on much - on what's wrong, what's shit, what's better, what's worse. But I'm pragmatic and you're romantic. |  | | |
| 3rd Round on 20:43 - Aug 25 with 2267 views | gazza1 |
| 3rd Round on 20:41 - Aug 25 by Northernr |
Completely avoids the issue of historic injury and dementia neatly.
Says a load of stuff that misrepresents what I've said and what I believed, because you know I hate the whole 'business of football' stuff and I know you know that because you read this site. The difference is I'm pragmatic about it, it is how it is, QPR are right to adapt to that and try to compete within it, by selling Eze and reinvesting, by selling Dickie in the future and reinvesting. The random rant about Luke Freeman - look what we spent that money on, we got better without him by every measurement.
And as for me need to "win the argument" - I was quite happy taking the piss, you told me to respond properly to your post, so I responded. I will now return to taking the pis.
We actually agree on much - on what's wrong, what's shit, what's better, what's worse. But I'm pragmatic and you're romantic. |
You use too many long words for my Norf 
I was educated in the 50's & 60's when education finished at 16 and my education was down the park or in the bushes, no Uni here bruv!!! [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:46]
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| 3rd Round on 20:44 - Aug 25 with 2277 views | Northernr |
| 3rd Round on 20:37 - Aug 25 by gazza1 |
Wow.....a lot of passion there. I read it all but it blew my mind!!!!
I wonder, one hell of a lot; about how players from the 60's & 70's would fair in football nowadays and I cannot make my mind up.
One other thing that plays on my mind is all this moaning about playing Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday.....they done it years ago but its not acceptable to many now. I struggle to get my head around it.
Oh 3rd round.....an easy tie would be good. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:38]
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The players that were stars in the 60s and 70s would be stars now. But they wouldn't be doing 60 games a season without rotation and having a cold sponge slapped on their ruptured ACLs. They'd be rotated, and fed, and trained, and conditioned, exactly as the players are now, and they'd be brilliant.
If you want to know what happens when you pick the same 11 week after week, month after month, game after game, relentlessly, please see the second half of 2018/19 at QPR. | | | |
| 3rd Round on 20:56 - Aug 25 with 2223 views | terryb |
| 3rd Round on 20:41 - Aug 25 by Northernr |
Completely avoids the issue of historic injury and dementia neatly.
Says a load of stuff that misrepresents what I've said and what I believed, because you know I hate the whole 'business of football' stuff and I know you know that because you read this site. The difference is I'm pragmatic about it, it is how it is, QPR are right to adapt to that and try to compete within it, by selling Eze and reinvesting, by selling Dickie in the future and reinvesting. The random rant about Luke Freeman - look what we spent that money on, we got better without him by every measurement.
And as for me need to "win the argument" - I was quite happy taking the piss, you told me to respond properly to your post, so I responded. I will now return to taking the pis.
We actually agree on much - on what's wrong, what's shit, what's better, what's worse. But I'm pragmatic and you're romantic. |
Speaking of historic injuries, there were many players that retired from the game with a crippled body.
Many of you will know that I was a friend & drinking companion of Kevin Beattie. This was the man who should have been rivalling Bobby Moore as England's greatest defender, but he struggled to walk (let alone run) come his 30th birthday.
Why? Because he was injured for at least half of the games he played. I think he received his first Cortisone injection in 1974 (it may have been a year later) & I doubt that he played a match afterwards without being fed this drug.
IF he had been allowed to recover at the onset instead of being forced to play, he would have been the rock that England built their team upon. More importantly, his life wouldn't have been close to being finished at the age of 30.
That is what playing umpteen games a season did to many a player! [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:57]
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| 3rd Round on 20:57 - Aug 25 with 2208 views | stainrods_elbow |
| 3rd Round on 20:41 - Aug 25 by Northernr |
Completely avoids the issue of historic injury and dementia neatly.
Says a load of stuff that misrepresents what I've said and what I believed, because you know I hate the whole 'business of football' stuff and I know you know that because you read this site. The difference is I'm pragmatic about it, it is how it is, QPR are right to adapt to that and try to compete within it, by selling Eze and reinvesting, by selling Dickie in the future and reinvesting. The random rant about Luke Freeman - look what we spent that money on, we got better without him by every measurement.
And as for me need to "win the argument" - I was quite happy taking the piss, you told me to respond properly to your post, so I responded. I will now return to taking the pis.
We actually agree on much - on what's wrong, what's shit, what's better, what's worse. But I'm pragmatic and you're romantic. |
Yes, you're pragmatic (if you like ) and I'm romantic (if you like), and both have their place - that was my non-divisive conclusion.
I don't think the Freeman topic is 'random', at all, if you look at my argument. It's the idea that these things just happen in some kind of random windtunnel, actually, that's a symptom of the problem I'm taking about. But I've made the case with passion and hopefully a degree of articulacy, so it can be dealt with or dismissed as people see fit.
The issue about the apparently raised level of dementia among ex-footballers is obviously a very serious one, but needs a lot more research, as the sports scientists in this field themselves argue. Since I raise so many other issues in my post it feel to me churlish, snippy and unfair to me to pick me on one more very recent and enormous issue I deliberately didn't get into. But sorry if my (very long, albeit massively compressed) post wasn't long enough.
The question of football's 'duty of care' here ireally presents itself in terms of the extent of its parameters, I suspect that managing (and perhaps even watching) a football team could be deleterious to health - where does one draw the line? What about all those managers who've had heart bypasses doing the job they do? To widen the cultural lens further, I'm a single man who lives alone, a poet, prone to melancholy. All of those things, I suspect, and often read, are very bad for my health, so when is it my turn for some societal empathy? I'm not being flippant, quite the reverse. But where and why the lens falls on these matters is very much influenced by media attention and the fluctuations of cultural fashion.
Some things get better, I guess. Some get worse. An awful lot stays the same. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:10]
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| 3rd Round on 20:59 - Aug 25 with 2203 views | terryb |
| 3rd Round on 18:17 - Aug 25 by WatfordR |
Presuming we'd all be happy to see West Brom beat Arsenal tonight. Not so much of an advantage for them in their Friday game with us. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 18:27]
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This is beginning to look doubtful! | | | |
| 3rd Round on 21:00 - Aug 25 with 2197 views | Northernr |
| 3rd Round on 20:56 - Aug 25 by terryb |
Speaking of historic injuries, there were many players that retired from the game with a crippled body.
Many of you will know that I was a friend & drinking companion of Kevin Beattie. This was the man who should have been rivalling Bobby Moore as England's greatest defender, but he struggled to walk (let alone run) come his 30th birthday.
Why? Because he was injured for at least half of the games he played. I think he received his first Cortisone injection in 1974 (it may have been a year later) & I doubt that he played a match afterwards without being fed this drug.
IF he had been allowed to recover at the onset instead of being forced to play, he would have been the rock that England built their team upon. More importantly, his life wouldn't have been close to being finished at the age of 30.
That is what playing umpteen games a season did to many a player! [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 20:57]
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THIS | | | |
| 3rd Round on 21:06 - Aug 25 with 2161 views | stainrods_elbow |
| 3rd Round on 19:04 - Aug 25 by Stainrod |
That doesn't really address the point. The miles alone that a player runs now and the speeds they do so at are off the scale compared to back in the day. I mean, we could go back to physios getting their "magic spray" out and telling players to "man up" when they pull a hamstring, but they are probably going to just be injured longer.
One of the many major improvements at the club is how we manage fitness - for cost reasons we have recruited some players with dodgy injury records (Odubajo, Austin, Jordi, Amos) and for the most part due to a good medical team and squad rotation we have got decent game time out of them.
I do understand why a Rangers fan would be nostalgic because the 70s was the club's golden era. I missed the real glory days but for me the likes of Tony Currie will always mean more to me than the next player we bring in, because it probably means more to you as a kid and there was a real swashbuckling style. But you also have to acknowledge that Adel could do things with a football that even Bowles or Marsh couldn't. The game in so many ways is a better spectacle.
Plus I don't miss the violence, racism, rubbish pitches etc. My frustration with the club is where they still haven't moved into the 21st century - to organise a ticketing system that works, sell food that you want to eat, have a website that doesn't require a test of patience and lots of swearing, actually making sensible plans to move to a ground that could make us sustainable.
Much as we all of a certain age like a bit of Life on Mars wallowing, I'm not sure many of us would actually enjoy the reality. |
Thanks for this. Adel was a one-off, but the swashbuckling days of Bowles, Currie, Stainrod et al are,, for the most part, an increasingly receding memory. Who plays like that any more? There's a (to me depressing) correlation of course between the pragmatism of the modern game and Clive's self-declared pragmatism - the one mirrors the other. In that sense, Clive is very modern and that's why he's running this site, I guess.
Thinking about this thread tonight, I was thinking about how it raises the question of empathy and its limits among a trans-generational fanbase. If I met and fell in love with my sweetheart in 1976 (down at the old Bull and Bush, for the sake of argument), she (hopefully) wouldn't be lamenting decades later my nostalgia for that time; in fact, we'd (hopefully) still be celebrating 'where it all started' years later.
Why should it be any different with a football club? Clive might think I'm being hyper-romantic now, but if so, so be it. Qpr vs Derby, 1976, 1-1, Att. 22, 527 (Givens, pen) is forever etched on my blue and white heart as my 'awakening'. That's why I think he needs to enlarge his empathy. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:12]
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| 3rd Round on 21:10 - Aug 25 with 2145 views | Northernr |
| 3rd Round on 21:06 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
Thanks for this. Adel was a one-off, but the swashbuckling days of Bowles, Currie, Stainrod et al are,, for the most part, an increasingly receding memory. Who plays like that any more? There's a (to me depressing) correlation of course between the pragmatism of the modern game and Clive's self-declared pragmatism - the one mirrors the other. In that sense, Clive is very modern and that's why he's running this site, I guess.
Thinking about this thread tonight, I was thinking about how it raises the question of empathy and its limits among a trans-generational fanbase. If I met and fell in love with my sweetheart in 1976 (down at the old Bull and Bush, for the sake of argument), she (hopefully) wouldn't be lamenting decades later my nostalgia for that time; in fact, we'd (hopefully) still be celebrating 'where it all started' years later.
Why should it be any different with a football club? Clive might think I'm being hyper-romantic now, but if so, so be it. Qpr vs Derby, 1976, 1-1, Att. 22, 527 (Givens, pen) is forever etched on my blue and white heart as my 'awakening'. That's why I think he needs to enlarge his empathy. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:12]
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To clarify again, I don't like any of this any more than you. I hate so much about the modern sport, it feels like it's left me behind, so it will certainly feel like that to people that were there for the 60s and 70s. Does this sound like the voice of somebody who is happy with the sport?
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/54841/there%E2%80%
But I think to just pretend it hasn't happened, pretend we can still do 14 players for 80 games, that managers should be slating players in post match, and all the other stuff you've put forward this week, is man shouts at cloud stuff. It is what it is, you adapt or die. QPR under Warbs have adapted very well. | | | |
| 3rd Round on 21:11 - Aug 25 with 2140 views | daveB |
| 3rd Round on 21:06 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
Thanks for this. Adel was a one-off, but the swashbuckling days of Bowles, Currie, Stainrod et al are,, for the most part, an increasingly receding memory. Who plays like that any more? There's a (to me depressing) correlation of course between the pragmatism of the modern game and Clive's self-declared pragmatism - the one mirrors the other. In that sense, Clive is very modern and that's why he's running this site, I guess.
Thinking about this thread tonight, I was thinking about how it raises the question of empathy and its limits among a trans-generational fanbase. If I met and fell in love with my sweetheart in 1976 (down at the old Bull and Bush, for the sake of argument), she (hopefully) wouldn't be lamenting decades later my nostalgia for that time; in fact, we'd (hopefully) still be celebrating 'where it all started' years later.
Why should it be any different with a football club? Clive might think I'm being hyper-romantic now, but if so, so be it. Qpr vs Derby, 1976, 1-1, Att. 22, 527 (Givens, pen) is forever etched on my blue and white heart as my 'awakening'. That's why I think he needs to enlarge his empathy. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:12]
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I don't think anyone is saying you can't enjoy looking back at the clubs history and the times you enjoyed as a fan, it's just that with how sports science has moved on players are better protected so they can play at their best for longer. With European games and Internationals the top players are still playing 60 games a season but when you have 3 games in short period they are rotated more now and given more time to rest | | | |
| 3rd Round on 21:12 - Aug 25 with 2139 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 3rd Round on 21:06 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
Thanks for this. Adel was a one-off, but the swashbuckling days of Bowles, Currie, Stainrod et al are,, for the most part, an increasingly receding memory. Who plays like that any more? There's a (to me depressing) correlation of course between the pragmatism of the modern game and Clive's self-declared pragmatism - the one mirrors the other. In that sense, Clive is very modern and that's why he's running this site, I guess.
Thinking about this thread tonight, I was thinking about how it raises the question of empathy and its limits among a trans-generational fanbase. If I met and fell in love with my sweetheart in 1976 (down at the old Bull and Bush, for the sake of argument), she (hopefully) wouldn't be lamenting decades later my nostalgia for that time; in fact, we'd (hopefully) still be celebrating 'where it all started' years later.
Why should it be any different with a football club? Clive might think I'm being hyper-romantic now, but if so, so be it. Qpr vs Derby, 1976, 1-1, Att. 22, 527 (Givens, pen) is forever etched on my blue and white heart as my 'awakening'. That's why I think he needs to enlarge his empathy. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:12]
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Chair? Eze?
Bowles and Taarabt were 35 years apart and all those players add up to an average of one a decade.
Hardly typical and certainly not a fair stick to beat the current team with considering they only come along one year in ten.
Not going to sugar coat it: if you are anything other than delighted by things specifically on pitch QPR right now you will never be happy. Otherwise I’m to totally on board with your cynicism of the modern game. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:15]
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| 3rd Round on 21:22 - Aug 25 with 2066 views | stainrods_elbow |
| 3rd Round on 21:12 - Aug 25 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Chair? Eze?
Bowles and Taarabt were 35 years apart and all those players add up to an average of one a decade.
Hardly typical and certainly not a fair stick to beat the current team with considering they only come along one year in ten.
Not going to sugar coat it: if you are anything other than delighted by things specifically on pitch QPR right now you will never be happy. Otherwise I’m to totally on board with your cynicism of the modern game. [Post edited 25 Aug 2021 21:15]
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Eze, yes. Chair is getting very good.
Why is my unalloyed 'deight' somehow compulsory? I find so much to admire in our start to the season, as I've already posted about. That doesn't mean I can't also be critical at the same time (even if might seem to some like nitpicking), surely? Critique is a function of love, not a lack of love. And football, and fan love especially, is all about contestation, enthusiasm, passion and excess. It's not f*cking accountancy. | |
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| 3rd Round on 21:30 - Aug 25 with 2040 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 3rd Round on 21:22 - Aug 25 by stainrods_elbow |
Eze, yes. Chair is getting very good.
Why is my unalloyed 'deight' somehow compulsory? I find so much to admire in our start to the season, as I've already posted about. That doesn't mean I can't also be critical at the same time (even if might seem to some like nitpicking), surely? Critique is a function of love, not a lack of love. And football, and fan love especially, is all about contestation, enthusiasm, passion and excess. It's not f*cking accountancy. |
Of course there shouldn’t be a compulsory delight, but it seems very one way with your good self and to be honest in world without much cheer at the moment you are ruining one of the rays of sunshine for people.
I just don’t think you are reading to room very well. However, I don’t have to read your posts so perhaps the issue is with me. | | | |
| 3rd Round on 21:31 - Aug 25 with 2023 views | ted_hendrix |
Newport away is off then. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| 3rd Round on 21:44 - Aug 25 with 1952 views | rsonist |
I struggle to see the love, romance, and empathy (or whatever other delusional bloviation) in ignoring every mitigating factor to constantly demand public flagellation in the name of some asinine panto of "accountability" and honest dialogue with the fans. As if it's ever been any less of a transparent PR tactic than telling the media whatever before dealing with it behind closed doors.
See also the misanthropic garbage that's attempted to be excused in recent weeks on here by mealy mouthed euphemisms like "tribalism" and "fan's right to vent". Misty eyed softies telling it how it is huh? Ironic.
FFP is real, Bosman is real, injury and fatigue is real. Grow up. | | | |
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