| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:05 - Sep 18 with 3649 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 00:17 - Sep 18 by davman |
Why?
The breaches Derby are guilty of pre-date last season, so why should Wycombe have benefited? |
Because the points deduction would, and should, have applied last season had they not hidden it with false accounting.
I'm seeing a lot of 'feel sorry for the fans' and of course that's true. As a football fan you're basically at the mercy of whatever the owner of your club does. They're probably going to watch theirs disintegrate into the lower leagues now, and that's not their fault, they couldn't have done much about it, and that's horrible.
But... This has very obviously been coming for a long time at Derby. I've been writing about this for years, as has Kieron Maguire, it's been obvious in every transfer they've made, every deal they've done, every set of accounts. The sale of the ground, the sacking of multiple managers (Paul Clement being binned off while they're in the play offs for not doing it "The Derby Way" should have been an enormous alarm bell), the constant enormous overspend on players with no resale value... there should have been protests long ago.
Websites, supporter groups, should have been asking hard questions, holding Morris to account, not happy clapping along with it. The sale of the stadium is basically the penultimate stop on the journey to oblivion. Same thing happened at Sheff Wed. When your club is giving up ownership of its biggest asset to secure money to get it out of uber short term sht, and sign more players, that's the point of no return. It should have brought howling protests raining down on the Derby board. They should have been ousted at that point. It should never have been allowed to happen. Instead the fans seemed happy that it meant they could go on signing yet more overpriced players with dead money - Derby haven't received a transfer fee for a player they bought themselves under the Morris ownership. I can't recall another example of a chairman at another club (Steve Gibson) publicly calling out a rival over their accounting practices. Usually that sht is kept in house, at Derby it was so egregious even the bloody Middlesbrough chairman was publicly saying "come on guys".
And yet... not a word. Actually, worse than not a word, the fans actually seemed to love it. More signings, more blood. "Mel's got the Championship on strings" with all the funny little photoshop designs to go with it. To a small extent they've been enablers in this. You don't have much power as a fan, but you have some, and Derby didn't use theirs at all. |  | |  |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:42 - Sep 18 with 3557 views | nix |
Good points Clive. Especially as they won't be the first club it's happened to recently. Surely they could have learnt from our experience what happens when you follow that strategy. We came ridiculously close to crashing and burning.
However, not even QPR fans have wholly supported the strategy, still calling for Lee Hoos' head (what has he ever done for the club, I saw on FB!!!!!) or Les, or the manager, or wanting loads of signings or complaining about brand new signings not immediately being good enough.
It has piped down since we've been having some relative success but it's not really far below the surface. A few poor results, if this happens mid season, and they'll be calling for everyone's heads again. I don't think it's the majority of fans but I do think they make a disproportionate amount of noise. I'm hoping the board are strong enough to ignore them this time. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:27 - Sep 18 with 3474 views | MedwayR |
Time to be ruthless, any of their players worth picking up on the cheap, Sibley maybe? |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 09:33 - Sep 18 with 3324 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:27 - Sep 18 by MedwayR |
Time to be ruthless, any of their players worth picking up on the cheap, Sibley maybe? |
Well half the premier league is “banging the door down for Ravel Morrison” according to whatever chump Sky had on coms last week. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 09:42 - Sep 18 with 3291 views | terryb |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 23:45 - Sep 17 by Myke |
I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it, even basic maths gives me a headache. But how did Wigan's point deduction come into immediate effect, thereby relegating a club that was in mid-table and Derby's is delayed until the following season, thereby keeping them up last season and giving them a fighting chance of doing so again this? |
Wigan were deducted 12 points for entering administratiowith immediate effect. This will be exactly the same as Derby will receive. This couldn't have been applied last season as they were not in administration at that time!
The 9 points that has been mentioned, would be in addition & is still being fought over by the club. Whether the EFL would now allow this to slide away is another question.
The administrators might find it difficult to find any buyers for the club as they have no ground. Unless the company that "bought" the ground is included as a job lot!
The statement also failed to explain how Derby used the £80 million they "received" from the sale of the ground. [Post edited 18 Sep 2021 9:45]
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 09:47 - Sep 18 with 3269 views | BostonR |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:05 - Sep 18 by Northernr |
Because the points deduction would, and should, have applied last season had they not hidden it with false accounting.
I'm seeing a lot of 'feel sorry for the fans' and of course that's true. As a football fan you're basically at the mercy of whatever the owner of your club does. They're probably going to watch theirs disintegrate into the lower leagues now, and that's not their fault, they couldn't have done much about it, and that's horrible.
But... This has very obviously been coming for a long time at Derby. I've been writing about this for years, as has Kieron Maguire, it's been obvious in every transfer they've made, every deal they've done, every set of accounts. The sale of the ground, the sacking of multiple managers (Paul Clement being binned off while they're in the play offs for not doing it "The Derby Way" should have been an enormous alarm bell), the constant enormous overspend on players with no resale value... there should have been protests long ago.
Websites, supporter groups, should have been asking hard questions, holding Morris to account, not happy clapping along with it. The sale of the stadium is basically the penultimate stop on the journey to oblivion. Same thing happened at Sheff Wed. When your club is giving up ownership of its biggest asset to secure money to get it out of uber short term sht, and sign more players, that's the point of no return. It should have brought howling protests raining down on the Derby board. They should have been ousted at that point. It should never have been allowed to happen. Instead the fans seemed happy that it meant they could go on signing yet more overpriced players with dead money - Derby haven't received a transfer fee for a player they bought themselves under the Morris ownership. I can't recall another example of a chairman at another club (Steve Gibson) publicly calling out a rival over their accounting practices. Usually that sht is kept in house, at Derby it was so egregious even the bloody Middlesbrough chairman was publicly saying "come on guys".
And yet... not a word. Actually, worse than not a word, the fans actually seemed to love it. More signings, more blood. "Mel's got the Championship on strings" with all the funny little photoshop designs to go with it. To a small extent they've been enablers in this. You don't have much power as a fan, but you have some, and Derby didn't use theirs at all. |
Great post - gives a brilliant insight into the shenanigans at Derby. To me the penalty seems light vs what we were handed. Clive, is this what Lee Hoos’ was eluding to when he talked bout the Board being furious of the EFL management when you interviewed him? Would you expect Lee to go back to the EFL Board and re-state our case? |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:04 - Sep 18 with 3235 views | themodfather |
finally some action by "EFL and will there be more? the breaches have gone on too long, this is an admin offence to automatic deduction. gotta feel for the fans, never their fault and they are loyal but deluded ( think of them at wembley v us, i rarely met such arrogant fans) chasing the "prem dream" is a nightmare for most clubs. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:22 - Sep 18 with 3184 views | Lanhoop |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:04 - Sep 18 by themodfather |
finally some action by "EFL and will there be more? the breaches have gone on too long, this is an admin offence to automatic deduction. gotta feel for the fans, never their fault and they are loyal but deluded ( think of them at wembley v us, i rarely met such arrogant fans) chasing the "prem dream" is a nightmare for most clubs. |
I really don't get the idea of, "gotta feel for the fans", unless a club goes all the way out of business like Bury. That is possible, especially with next to zero assets, but it is unlikely.
Derby AND it's fans spend the last 7 years under Morris trying to get one over on the EFL and the rest of the championship and as Clive said, they've not complained at the shenanigans of selling the ground, the Rooney 32 fiddles and all the big transfers and wages.
Why feel sorry for the fans? They'll spend a year or so playing Doncaster, Shrewsbury and Crewe and the rest of L1. Is that punishment instead of watching Preston, Luton and Cardiff? They've all enjoyed their tilt, time to pay the price. | | | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:43 - Sep 18 with 3136 views | joe90 |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 09:42 - Sep 18 by terryb |
Wigan were deducted 12 points for entering administratiowith immediate effect. This will be exactly the same as Derby will receive. This couldn't have been applied last season as they were not in administration at that time!
The 9 points that has been mentioned, would be in addition & is still being fought over by the club. Whether the EFL would now allow this to slide away is another question.
The administrators might find it difficult to find any buyers for the club as they have no ground. Unless the company that "bought" the ground is included as a job lot!
The statement also failed to explain how Derby used the £80 million they "received" from the sale of the ground. [Post edited 18 Sep 2021 9:45]
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I felt very sorry for Wigan. The owner passed the 'fit and proper' test or whatever it's called and put them straight into administration. Very odd. What's even stranger imo is how Derby have managed to dodge every bullet and Wigan gets one right between the eyes first time.
It seems these days that very few teams go down purely based on football. It's always some sort of mismanagement or finanical issue. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:49 - Sep 18 with 3113 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:43 - Sep 18 by joe90 |
I felt very sorry for Wigan. The owner passed the 'fit and proper' test or whatever it's called and put them straight into administration. Very odd. What's even stranger imo is how Derby have managed to dodge every bullet and Wigan gets one right between the eyes first time.
It seems these days that very few teams go down purely based on football. It's always some sort of mismanagement or finanical issue. |
Weren’t Mel Morris or another Derby Exec on the EFL board until quite recently? Not suggesting favours or anything… |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:07 - Sep 18 with 3073 views | NorthLondonR |
I'm sure they'll be more than a few Fulham fans rejoicing over this after what happened in 83 |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:47 - Sep 18 with 2988 views | enfieldargh |
t sure if mentioned on this thread but DCFC going into Administration and facing 12 pt deduction.
looks like they've run out of rope |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:05 - Sep 18 with 2828 views | EastR |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:05 - Sep 18 by Northernr |
Because the points deduction would, and should, have applied last season had they not hidden it with false accounting.
I'm seeing a lot of 'feel sorry for the fans' and of course that's true. As a football fan you're basically at the mercy of whatever the owner of your club does. They're probably going to watch theirs disintegrate into the lower leagues now, and that's not their fault, they couldn't have done much about it, and that's horrible.
But... This has very obviously been coming for a long time at Derby. I've been writing about this for years, as has Kieron Maguire, it's been obvious in every transfer they've made, every deal they've done, every set of accounts. The sale of the ground, the sacking of multiple managers (Paul Clement being binned off while they're in the play offs for not doing it "The Derby Way" should have been an enormous alarm bell), the constant enormous overspend on players with no resale value... there should have been protests long ago.
Websites, supporter groups, should have been asking hard questions, holding Morris to account, not happy clapping along with it. The sale of the stadium is basically the penultimate stop on the journey to oblivion. Same thing happened at Sheff Wed. When your club is giving up ownership of its biggest asset to secure money to get it out of uber short term sht, and sign more players, that's the point of no return. It should have brought howling protests raining down on the Derby board. They should have been ousted at that point. It should never have been allowed to happen. Instead the fans seemed happy that it meant they could go on signing yet more overpriced players with dead money - Derby haven't received a transfer fee for a player they bought themselves under the Morris ownership. I can't recall another example of a chairman at another club (Steve Gibson) publicly calling out a rival over their accounting practices. Usually that sht is kept in house, at Derby it was so egregious even the bloody Middlesbrough chairman was publicly saying "come on guys".
And yet... not a word. Actually, worse than not a word, the fans actually seemed to love it. More signings, more blood. "Mel's got the Championship on strings" with all the funny little photoshop designs to go with it. To a small extent they've been enablers in this. You don't have much power as a fan, but you have some, and Derby didn't use theirs at all. |
A bit harsh on the (blanket) fan base. When it comes to it they (and all of us) are at the bottom of the pile.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1439082006630092805/photo/1
Meanwhile the EFL continue to abdicate their responsibility to act, and in Derby's case they countless opportunities in the past 4-5 years.
Even by going into administration Derby have saved them from having to make another decision. | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:06 - Sep 19 with 2370 views | Northernr |
Morris gave an interview to Radio Derby today in which he confirmed that the three sets of accounts they've got to refile, but still haven't, despite an August deadline, will breach the FFP regulations leaving them facing a further points deduction on top of the 12+9 they're already getting. Not unrealistic that Derby get docked north of 30 points this season. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:12 - Sep 19 with 2360 views | davman |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:05 - Sep 18 by Northernr |
Because the points deduction would, and should, have applied last season had they not hidden it with false accounting.
I'm seeing a lot of 'feel sorry for the fans' and of course that's true. As a football fan you're basically at the mercy of whatever the owner of your club does. They're probably going to watch theirs disintegrate into the lower leagues now, and that's not their fault, they couldn't have done much about it, and that's horrible.
But... This has very obviously been coming for a long time at Derby. I've been writing about this for years, as has Kieron Maguire, it's been obvious in every transfer they've made, every deal they've done, every set of accounts. The sale of the ground, the sacking of multiple managers (Paul Clement being binned off while they're in the play offs for not doing it "The Derby Way" should have been an enormous alarm bell), the constant enormous overspend on players with no resale value... there should have been protests long ago.
Websites, supporter groups, should have been asking hard questions, holding Morris to account, not happy clapping along with it. The sale of the stadium is basically the penultimate stop on the journey to oblivion. Same thing happened at Sheff Wed. When your club is giving up ownership of its biggest asset to secure money to get it out of uber short term sht, and sign more players, that's the point of no return. It should have brought howling protests raining down on the Derby board. They should have been ousted at that point. It should never have been allowed to happen. Instead the fans seemed happy that it meant they could go on signing yet more overpriced players with dead money - Derby haven't received a transfer fee for a player they bought themselves under the Morris ownership. I can't recall another example of a chairman at another club (Steve Gibson) publicly calling out a rival over their accounting practices. Usually that sht is kept in house, at Derby it was so egregious even the bloody Middlesbrough chairman was publicly saying "come on guys".
And yet... not a word. Actually, worse than not a word, the fans actually seemed to love it. More signings, more blood. "Mel's got the Championship on strings" with all the funny little photoshop designs to go with it. To a small extent they've been enablers in this. You don't have much power as a fan, but you have some, and Derby didn't use theirs at all. |
All true, but their first breaches were in the 2019-20 season which is when points should have been deducted.
You are absolutely 100% spot on that this had to have been concluded earlier, I'd have thought that means it should have been shut down before Wycombe were anywhere near the Championship.
Or have I got that fundamental point wrong? |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:18 - Sep 19 with 2343 views | MedwayR |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:06 - Sep 19 by Northernr |
Morris gave an interview to Radio Derby today in which he confirmed that the three sets of accounts they've got to refile, but still haven't, despite an August deadline, will breach the FFP regulations leaving them facing a further points deduction on top of the 12+9 they're already getting. Not unrealistic that Derby get docked north of 30 points this season. |
So he basically admitted they’ve been cheating FFP for years - we all knew it but EFL need to come down very hard on them/him. | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:24 - Sep 19 with 2336 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:12 - Sep 19 by davman |
All true, but their first breaches were in the 2019-20 season which is when points should have been deducted.
You are absolutely 100% spot on that this had to have been concluded earlier, I'd have thought that means it should have been shut down before Wycombe were anywhere near the Championship.
Or have I got that fundamental point wrong? |
It;'s difficult to pinpoint exactly until these three sets of accounts are refiled, which they were meant to do by August but haven't bothered.
The prolonged dispute here, I believe, is Derby used false accounting practises, amortisation of players they owned, to make their accounts look better than they were and dodge the FFP stuff. The back and forth has been the EFL challenging those practices legally. Derby have now been asked to file their last three sets of accounts again, without these unicorn sales on them, and when they do Morris has confirmed that they will indeed be in breach of FFP which then carries a fine of up to 12 points for each season - going on what Birmingham got you'd expect it to be nine. Potentially nine for each set of accounts could be up to 27 but with this weird way the EFL are going about it, trying to negotiate a punishment with them to avoid being dragged back to arbitration, who knows? Frankly, if they're already being docked 12 for admin and nine for the latest breach, that relegates them now anyway, so they'd maybe be best advised to take the whole lot on the chin now, up to 48 points this season, rather than challenge it, drag it through the courts, lose, and end up being docked points in league One next year too. Remember, admin comes with a two years transfer embargo and agreed business plan, and they have no owner, so League One will be no picnic either.
As for when the deductions should have taken place, it's difficult to pinpoint until they finally file these three sets of accounts and we see which ones breach. I need Simon Dorset/Roller's help here but I think these three accounts cover 17/18, 18/19 and 19/20 and we can expect ones for 20/21 around February. If we assume they're all now in breach without all the lies Derby had on them, which Morris seems to be suggesting today, then if they'd been filed correctly at the time then they would probably have had at least an embargo for 19/20 (for the 17/18 set), at least nine points and probably more in 20/21 (for the 18/19 stuff), and then nine again this season along with now 12 for admin for the 19/20 breaches. There tends to be an 18 month lag because of the accounting period and the farcical way the EFL punishes its teams. At the very least it would definitely have kept Wycombe up last year. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:29 - Sep 19 with 2316 views | Harbour |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:06 - Sep 19 by Northernr |
Morris gave an interview to Radio Derby today in which he confirmed that the three sets of accounts they've got to refile, but still haven't, despite an August deadline, will breach the FFP regulations leaving them facing a further points deduction on top of the 12+9 they're already getting. Not unrealistic that Derby get docked north of 30 points this season. |
You would think there best strategy would be to take the 30 point deduction this season so all over before they drop to League 1 . But if there is a fire sale of players ala Wigan could see them dropping to League 2. Might as well take the pain now and rebuild from there but could be years before they get back to where they are now. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:34 - Sep 19 with 2297 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:29 - Sep 19 by Harbour |
You would think there best strategy would be to take the 30 point deduction this season so all over before they drop to League 1 . But if there is a fire sale of players ala Wigan could see them dropping to League 2. Might as well take the pain now and rebuild from there but could be years before they get back to where they are now. |
Absolutely, and I wonder if with this admin thing that's what they're doing. They know what the accounts say, and what it means. Multiple batches of nine points off, potentially as many as 36. They've fought that battle through the courts and lost, as soon as these accounts are filed (which they were meant to be a month ago) they're fcked and relegated anyway. Stick it in admin and add 12 to that now, because they're not surviving anyway, screw over all the creditors but reduce the debt and make the club much cheaper for somebody to come and pick up.
The stupidest thing they could do now, frankly, is drag legal challenges to points deductions into next season. They're obviously coming off. It's game over. The house of cards has collapsed. Admin comes with a two year transfer embargo so putting a team together for next season in league One will be incredibly difficult, and they'll be able to afford to keep, I would say, none of the few contracted players they've got now. Start next season with a points deduction too and they'll be in League Two 12 months later.
Take the hit on the points now. Like I say, sticking it in admin tells me they've realised this as well. The big loser though, as said, is Wycombe.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:50 - Sep 19 with 2229 views | QPR_Jim |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:12 - Sep 19 by davman |
All true, but their first breaches were in the 2019-20 season which is when points should have been deducted.
You are absolutely 100% spot on that this had to have been concluded earlier, I'd have thought that means it should have been shut down before Wycombe were anywhere near the Championship.
Or have I got that fundamental point wrong? |
I don't know the ins and outs of it but I think some Charlton fans thought Derby should be deducted points when they were relegated, let alone Wycombe. Not sure what that's grounded in though but if there's potentially 2 teams relegated because the EFL didn't act quicker it could be just the begining of the legal issues for the EFL.
*On second thoughts that might have been Birmingham, not sure. [Post edited 19 Sep 2021 20:03]
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:12 - Sep 19 with 2184 views | ManinBlack |
Personally I think Wycombe will come back up like Rotherham have been doing. I believe in their manager.
To be fair to the Derby team that has been thrown together from a bargain basement, they are doing pretty well on the pitch. For all our good football we are only two points above them bearing in mind we are supposed promotion hopefuls and they were relegation favourites. Obviously they will be if points are taken away shortly but they have done better than expected. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:50 - Sep 19 with 2100 views | MedwayR |
Wouldn't falsifying account be in breach of the law? | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 21:46 - Sep 19 with 2018 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:50 - Sep 19 by MedwayR |
Wouldn't falsifying account be in breach of the law? |
There’s certainly some big questions for the auditors who signed the accounts off, and are intertwined with Morris in all sorts of ways as Kieran Maguire has been tweeting this weekend. But I think the issue with the player amortisation thing is that it’s not allowed under FFP rules, not that it’s not allowed under accountancy rules. Might be wrong on that. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:55 - Sep 19 with 1911 views | SimonD |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 21:46 - Sep 19 by Northernr |
There’s certainly some big questions for the auditors who signed the accounts off, and are intertwined with Morris in all sorts of ways as Kieran Maguire has been tweeting this weekend. But I think the issue with the player amortisation thing is that it’s not allowed under FFP rules, not that it’s not allowed under accountancy rules. Might be wrong on that. |
Their amorisation method is not allowed under accounting rules. The purpose of amortisation is to reflect the depreciating value of an asset in the accounts, and while their method probably more accurately tracks the value of a player (although without seeing the actual numbers we don't know how far they've pushed this), to satisfy accounting rules they need to demonstrate a reliable model which works in at least a significant majority of cases. The volatility of the transfer market makes this impossible, therefore they must use the standard straight line method.
The accounts they are re-submitting are the 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18 ones. They are overdue submitting their 2018/19 and 2019/20 accounts which is why they are currently under a registration embargo and which, along with the unpaid transfer fees, is the crux of the EFL's sanctions against them which may or may not result in the 9 point deduction. [Post edited 20 Sep 2021 7:11]
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