| So is the Martinball experiment dead? 21:39 - Sep 3 with 9298 views | Dr_Parnassus |
What on earth has happened here?
Last season I touched upon the key metrics Martin judges performance by, being vastly different to what everyone else does - to the point that “success” in those Martinball areas (pass count, possession, pass number) was actually hindering the result and a reduction in all of the above correlates directly to higher points.
45% possession, 423 passes 19.9% long balls (?!)
No passing for passings sake, no short balls at all costs mantra, no pointless possession just to keep hold of the ball. So refreshing.
In our last two games we have averaged 48% possession and got 4 points from 6.
Martin has either been given an absolute roasting or he’s had an epiphany that what he was doing was never going to work.
Either one is fine by me. I rarely get excited by wins these days knowing that it’s very likely Martinball will be back the next week…. But this time it feels different, I think the witch may actually be dead?
Well done Martin for finally changing it and of course well done to the players. Let’s finally play to this squads ability. |  |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:42 - Sep 3 with 5630 views | Sirjohnalot |
The disasters that were Luton and Middlesbrough may be the best thing that’s happened to us. |  | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:50 - Sep 3 with 5590 views | Whiterockin |
After one game you can't say something is dead, it could just be evolving. |  | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:51 - Sep 3 with 5591 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:42 - Sep 3 by Sirjohnalot |
The disasters that were Luton and Middlesbrough may be the best thing that’s happened to us. |
That Martinball phantom is always hanging around the corner though.
I’d like it if he came out and said plainly that we are keeping this change in style and do a bit of an explanation. That way we can know what direction the club are going in. The not knowing which is going to turn up week on week is certainly unsettling.
He did this last season when under pressure though, he ditched it for a few weeks and got some results then went back to it. So I’m never counting my chickens.
But as I said in the OP, this time feels different. It feels like he’s finally realised, and no question the players will feel relieved to play a system that actually makes sense.
QPR had more passes and more possession than us at the Liberty (.com), has that ever happened in the league under Martin before (other than games with a red card)?
One doesn’t immediately come to mind. I’d guess no. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:58 - Sep 3 with 5560 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:50 - Sep 3 by Whiterockin |
After one game you can't say something is dead, it could just be evolving. |
Two games in succession.
I wasn’t too keen on the last performance but it clearly wasn’t Martinball. Evolution indicates a slow change.
This is dramatic.
For the avoidance of doubt - this is Martinball:-
It’s a stark difference in approach. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:05 - Sep 3 with 5516 views | Gwyn737 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:58 - Sep 3 by Dr_Parnassus |
Two games in succession.
I wasn’t too keen on the last performance but it clearly wasn’t Martinball. Evolution indicates a slow change.
This is dramatic.
For the avoidance of doubt - this is Martinball:-
It’s a stark difference in approach. |
I may be wrong but I think it’s too quick to wave goodbye.
I fear that if we have a decent run of results it’ll slip back in.
We’ll know by Christmas. |  | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:09 - Sep 3 with 5486 views | Sirjohnalot |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:58 - Sep 3 by Dr_Parnassus |
Two games in succession.
I wasn’t too keen on the last performance but it clearly wasn’t Martinball. Evolution indicates a slow change.
This is dramatic.
For the avoidance of doubt - this is Martinball:-
It’s a stark difference in approach. |
Last two games have been exciting. No reason why we cannot make a concerted push this year. Norwich are looking strong but could be quite open.
Nothing wrong with Martinball needs to be evolved, hopefully he’s doing that. Amazing what confidence and a win can do. Birmingham could be a cracker | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:22 - Sep 3 with 5440 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:09 - Sep 3 by Sirjohnalot |
Last two games have been exciting. No reason why we cannot make a concerted push this year. Norwich are looking strong but could be quite open.
Nothing wrong with Martinball needs to be evolved, hopefully he’s doing that. Amazing what confidence and a win can do. Birmingham could be a cracker |
It’s not evolution of Martinball though, it’s a complete about turn from it.
These aren’t small tweaks.
25% less possession, 45% less passes, 20% less completion rate, 300% increase in long balls.
These are dramatic polar opposites in approach we have seen for the best part of 14 months. This is a sea change not an evolution. [Post edited 3 Sep 2022 22:24]
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:29 - Sep 3 with 5390 views | Sirjohnalot |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:22 - Sep 3 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not evolution of Martinball though, it’s a complete about turn from it.
These aren’t small tweaks.
25% less possession, 45% less passes, 20% less completion rate, 300% increase in long balls.
These are dramatic polar opposites in approach we have seen for the best part of 14 months. This is a sea change not an evolution. [Post edited 3 Sep 2022 22:24]
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In which case isn’t that even more of a compliment that he’s changing his philosophy ? Whatever the situation, could be a fun couple of games. Certainly more optimistic than this time last week with the transfer window and our style of play | | | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:51 - Sep 3 with 5343 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:29 - Sep 3 by Sirjohnalot |
In which case isn’t that even more of a compliment that he’s changing his philosophy ? Whatever the situation, could be a fun couple of games. Certainly more optimistic than this time last week with the transfer window and our style of play |
Well yes, hence why I said:-
“Well done Martin for finally changing it and of course well done to the players. Let’s finally play to this squads ability.”
But let’s not pretend all was fine with his approach and he needed a little tweak. That will do the players a huge disservice for the last 14 months.
This is a monumental change and one that has been a long time coming.
The only questions for me is “why”? And how long will it last?
The latter being infinitely more important than the former, but I would be fascinated to know what or who promoted such a dramatic shift. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:55 - Sep 3 with 5336 views | PawelAbbott |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:29 - Sep 3 by Sirjohnalot |
In which case isn’t that even more of a compliment that he’s changing his philosophy ? Whatever the situation, could be a fun couple of games. Certainly more optimistic than this time last week with the transfer window and our style of play |
If he has had a complete change in philosophy, then what was all that talk about a Process?
Why did we bring in players to play his old way?
I suspect he has been given his final warnings and advised to change. | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:57 - Sep 3 with 5333 views | jojaca |
No, I just thought QPR today were better than us at our own game. The only thing changed was the decision making of the goalkeeper was different. |  |
| Even when you know, you never know? |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:02 - Sep 3 with 5322 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:57 - Sep 3 by jojaca |
No, I just thought QPR today were better than us at our own game. The only thing changed was the decision making of the goalkeeper was different. |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:07 - Sep 3 with 5309 views | Sirjohnalot |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:55 - Sep 3 by PawelAbbott |
If he has had a complete change in philosophy, then what was all that talk about a Process?
Why did we bring in players to play his old way?
I suspect he has been given his final warnings and advised to change. |
Quite possibly, but quite frankly if it works, he’s successful and we go up, who cares ? | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:17 - Sep 3 with 5285 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:07 - Sep 3 by Sirjohnalot |
Quite possibly, but quite frankly if it works, he’s successful and we go up, who cares ? |
Because it shapes how we go forward as a club and what is potentially to come.
If we know we have a manager that can admit his mistakes openly and adapt, then that’s infinitely more encouraging than one who papers over cracks in his own thinking but is wanting to go back to that style as soon as we (and he) get some breathing room.
I think the “why” is very important here. Because who knows, he may have another idea next week and we are on another 13 month “process to nowhere”.
It’s very important for the fans to understand the managers thinking and philosophy. A stark change like this without a word is almost unsettling.
But granted I’ve not listened to any of his interview yet, he may well have explained it perfectly. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:20 - Sep 3 with 5270 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:57 - Sep 3 by jojaca |
No, I just thought QPR today were better than us at our own game. The only thing changed was the decision making of the goalkeeper was different. |
QPR played with a high line and a very quick high press which allowed our players more space to run into and allow players to play easier long passes.....this is something difficult to do when teams play deeper.
When teams play deeper we will be having the same conversations as to we had before.....this is when we need to learn to pick the runs and the passes in a more congested defence, confidence plays a massive part in this and confidence is massive with this team.
It was very quick that the way QPR set up allowed us to move the ball quicker and I agree that the only change that was quite clearly changed was the goalkeeper and ball at feet situation.
I think if every team came and played like QPR did today, Martin would be encouraging the team to play like they did today......numerous times I saw Martin pointing to switch play with a cross field pass or play it over the full back for a player to run onto, the space was clearly there and in abundance. [Post edited 3 Sep 2022 23:22]
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:55 - Sep 3 with 5195 views | jojaca |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:22 - Sep 3 by Dr_Parnassus |
We had 20% long balls, usually it’s about 7%.
No stupid goal kick routine. No passing back and fore 3 yards at a time. No endlessly knocking it about in front of our own box to keep possession.
QPR were decent yes, but that isn’t why we switched style so dramatically. We did so against Stoke too who were awful.
This was the same fixture 4 months ago.
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The goalkick routine was probably ended because of Benda. If Fisher played today, I bet that routine would of continued. Maybe Russell is learning the horses for courses.
The only thing I saw was a tactical change to hit down the channels because their full backs were high up that's why he brought on the boy from West Ham and Cullen. But in general play I thought we struggled to retain possession and some of the long balls were forced on because of their press. There was a lot aimless long balls.
I honestly thought QPR were one step ahead of us in our own Martinball style. If they played us ten times, i think they would beat us 6/7 times. I wasn't that impressed with us today, we were hanging again and I thought we completely lost our shape. But fortunately we hung on. I expect QPR to be good few positions ahead of us this year. | |
| Even when you know, you never know? |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 00:01 - Sep 4 with 5180 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Martin has become overcome by humility of late. Crushing home defeats does that. He has said a couple of times recently "I am a young developing manager and make mistakes" . I feel he should stick to the overall plan but mix it up. Adaptation to methods that work is a good trait.
I feel has has been given backing and i desperate to succeed. Swansea should aim to have defenders comfortable on the ball and I like to think Benda has got his head down and grafted on the training pitch with mr Thornton. Lets face it what do they do all week if they do not improve.
I sense Fisher and Woodman before him were instructed to stay on their line where perhaps Benda is more likely to come for crosses relieving the pressure on the centre backs. He is 6ft 4in so this is very useful closing out games.
5 Welsh players and 5 players who have come through the ranks. This is good for supporters to see and is good for the club as these players did not cost fees. More to come hopefully.
Josh Thomas will have to step in for Cullen on the bench if Obafemi forces his way back into the team. Josh is a grafter and needs to improve his composure. I expect Oxo Flex can play up top. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 00:40 - Sep 4 with 5133 views | Kerouac |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:57 - Sep 3 by jojaca |
No, I just thought QPR today were better than us at our own game. The only thing changed was the decision making of the goalkeeper was different. |
...and the shape!
When I aw the line up I thought he was going with his usual;
------------------------- Benda -----------------------------
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----------------------- Naughton ---------------------------
------- Wood --------------------------- Cabango --------
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---------- Cooper ---- Allen ---- Grimes ----------------
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Sorinola ------------ Patterson --------------- Manning
-------------------------- Piroe -------------------------------
...but he has changed the team shape to;
------------------------- Benda -----------------------------
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---------------- Wood --------- Cabango -----------------
Naughton -------------------------------------- Manning
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------------------ Allen ---- Grimes ------------------------
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Sorinola ------------ Cooper ----------------- Patterson
-------------------------- Piroe ------------------------------- |  |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 00:44 - Sep 4 with 5130 views | Jack_Kass |
Oh Martinball was definitely there today, it was more the fact that we weren't particularly doing it well and stumbled tactically into a winning position
Our possession stats were scared easily today, but they will be back and in greater numbers | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 01:10 - Sep 4 with 5114 views | Badlands |
Played as he has wanted to except for the short 'keeper passing.
The difference was we had a woking midfield. |  |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 01:36 - Sep 4 with 5097 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 01:10 - Sep 4 by Badlands |
Played as he has wanted to except for the short 'keeper passing.
The difference was we had a woking midfield. |
He wanted only 75% pass completion, 45% possession, only 423 passes of which 20% were long balls?
Why have we been seeing total opposite thus far then?
The amount of people completely unable to read a tactical game continues to astound me. Anyone who thinks it was the same style needs to reassess what their knowledge base of the game is.
Scary. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 04:35 - Sep 4 with 5063 views | jojaca |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 00:44 - Sep 4 by Jack_Kass |
Oh Martinball was definitely there today, it was more the fact that we weren't particularly doing it well and stumbled tactically into a winning position
Our possession stats were scared easily today, but they will be back and in greater numbers |
Totally agree, we had an off day trying to perfect martinball. | |
| Even when you know, you never know? |
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