| Workers rights "upgrade" 20:53 - Oct 10 with 3328 views | SullutaCreturned |
bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0l19j9jgko |  | | |  |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 11:29 - Oct 12 with 1113 views | Dr_Winston |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 11:19 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
I’ve no doubt there are some examples of this.
But that’s a long way from all public sector workers being virtually unsackable. |
I know of one case where someone basically broke into somebodys house screaming abuse at them and got reported to the law for it. Kept their job. Got moved sideways. Another got sent home on multiple occasions after turning up for work under the influence. Kept their job.
You basically have to steal something, be perpetually on the sick or punch someone in the office to get sacked. Losing your job for incompetence happens so rarely I only know personally of two cases where it has happened in 26 years, and one of those got their job back again on a technicality. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:08 - Oct 12 with 1062 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 11:15 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
In my experience most incompetent public sector workers get moved around rather than sacked. Have seen it happen dozens of times, including at managerial level. |
I worked as a contactor at a medium sized Local Authority about 10 years ago, sorting out their operational data or rather creating it because they didn't really have any useful data.
When I discussed some obvious underperformers with the Head of HR his response was "we have a responsibility as a Local Authority to employ a wide range of people, if we don't employ them who will? " |  |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:12 - Oct 12 with 1062 views | Gwyn737 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 11:29 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
I know of one case where someone basically broke into somebodys house screaming abuse at them and got reported to the law for it. Kept their job. Got moved sideways. Another got sent home on multiple occasions after turning up for work under the influence. Kept their job.
You basically have to steal something, be perpetually on the sick or punch someone in the office to get sacked. Losing your job for incompetence happens so rarely I only know personally of two cases where it has happened in 26 years, and one of those got their job back again on a technicality. |
Both those examples in your first paragraph would most likely end with dismissal in education.
As would financial mismanagement, gaming attendance or school roll, maladmistration of tests and failure to report a safeguarding concern to name a few. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:18 - Oct 12 with 1047 views | Dr_Winston |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:12 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Both those examples in your first paragraph would most likely end with dismissal in education.
As would financial mismanagement, gaming attendance or school roll, maladmistration of tests and failure to report a safeguarding concern to name a few. |
When I went to school there were more than a few teachers who were so hopelessly bad at it it is a source of mystery to me even to this day how nobody ever pulled them to one side and said "Look mate, this clearly isn't for you. Go work somewhere else". Anyone who went to one of Mr Manning's classes in Morriston Comp will know what I'm talking about.
The general gist seems to be that just being horrendous at your job is rarely enough of a reason to be dismissed in the public sector, when it absolutely should be. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:25 - Oct 12 with 1042 views | onehunglow |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:18 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
When I went to school there were more than a few teachers who were so hopelessly bad at it it is a source of mystery to me even to this day how nobody ever pulled them to one side and said "Look mate, this clearly isn't for you. Go work somewhere else". Anyone who went to one of Mr Manning's classes in Morriston Comp will know what I'm talking about.
The general gist seems to be that just being horrendous at your job is rarely enough of a reason to be dismissed in the public sector, when it absolutely should be. |
J
My era in BG was 61- 66.
The vast majority were sadists ,nasty genuinely contemptuous of lesser ability kids
Apparently I’d flown the the 11 plus at Brynhyfryd and got selected for the top stream ,which I hated as it was basically rager built on “ class” ,snobs basically. Although we had our own family business and weren’t short, I had a strong accent which was different to those from the likes of Langland / CAswell and Uplands . I was also hopeless at Maths but very good at languages and the treatment meted out depended on your abilities ,so half of my lessons wer torture ,the others ok.
Couldn’t wait to leave
Teachers there would be jailed now | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:29 - Oct 12 with 1040 views | Gwyn737 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:18 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
When I went to school there were more than a few teachers who were so hopelessly bad at it it is a source of mystery to me even to this day how nobody ever pulled them to one side and said "Look mate, this clearly isn't for you. Go work somewhere else". Anyone who went to one of Mr Manning's classes in Morriston Comp will know what I'm talking about.
The general gist seems to be that just being horrendous at your job is rarely enough of a reason to be dismissed in the public sector, when it absolutely should be. |
Since you’ve been in school inspection has been introduced. And Performance Related Pay. And the Teacher Standards. And the Teacher Regulation Authority.
If OFSTED came to my school on Monday and it went badly, I’d be out of a job on Thursday. As I would be out of tea job I’d did many of the things mentioned earlier.
I’m not for one minute saying the public sector is completely full of hard working, competent people. But it’s not the other way either. Same as the private sector.
Those positions are ideological, not factual.
Obviously some takes will be down to experience and Ive had much worse service from mechanics, banks and carpet shops than I’ve ever had from doctors, social workers etc. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:41 - Oct 12 with 1031 views | Dr_Winston |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:29 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Since you’ve been in school inspection has been introduced. And Performance Related Pay. And the Teacher Standards. And the Teacher Regulation Authority.
If OFSTED came to my school on Monday and it went badly, I’d be out of a job on Thursday. As I would be out of tea job I’d did many of the things mentioned earlier.
I’m not for one minute saying the public sector is completely full of hard working, competent people. But it’s not the other way either. Same as the private sector.
Those positions are ideological, not factual.
Obviously some takes will be down to experience and Ive had much worse service from mechanics, banks and carpet shops than I’ve ever had from doctors, social workers etc. |
School inspection was very much a thing when I was a kid. Ofsted was founded in 1992, five years before I left. I can remember inspectors before then too.
I'm not debating that there are useless people in all walks of life. It is pretty clear however that anyone with a permanent Govt contract is harder to shift than in the private sector. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:46 - Oct 12 with 1024 views | onehunglow |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:41 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
School inspection was very much a thing when I was a kid. Ofsted was founded in 1992, five years before I left. I can remember inspectors before then too.
I'm not debating that there are useless people in all walks of life. It is pretty clear however that anyone with a permanent Govt contract is harder to shift than in the private sector. |
Before Ofsted,nothing really
Makes one think
Teachers got away with murder | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:55 - Oct 12 with 1021 views | Gwyn737 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:41 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
School inspection was very much a thing when I was a kid. Ofsted was founded in 1992, five years before I left. I can remember inspectors before then too.
I'm not debating that there are useless people in all walks of life. It is pretty clear however that anyone with a permanent Govt contract is harder to shift than in the private sector. |
But all not virtually unsackable? | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:04 - Oct 12 with 1001 views | raynor94 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:25 - Oct 12 by onehunglow |
J
My era in BG was 61- 66.
The vast majority were sadists ,nasty genuinely contemptuous of lesser ability kids
Apparently I’d flown the the 11 plus at Brynhyfryd and got selected for the top stream ,which I hated as it was basically rager built on “ class” ,snobs basically. Although we had our own family business and weren’t short, I had a strong accent which was different to those from the likes of Langland / CAswell and Uplands . I was also hopeless at Maths but very good at languages and the treatment meted out depended on your abilities ,so half of my lessons wer torture ,the others ok.
Couldn’t wait to leave
Teachers there would be jailed now |
Couldn't agree more, I went to Olchfa from the time it opened, and yes some teachers were sadists, they would be arrested in this day and age |  |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:08 - Oct 12 with 998 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:04 - Oct 12 by raynor94 |
Couldn't agree more, I went to Olchfa from the time it opened, and yes some teachers were sadists, they would be arrested in this day and age |
One of my earliest memories of school was a teacher lifting me up by my ears, dragging me across the class room and throwing me outside into a cold dark corridor for something I didn’t even do. I was only about 5. I remember seeing her years later when I was in college and she came up to me as if she was an old friend, I was a good foot and a half taller than her then and had to repress every urge in my body that wanted to break her face. |  |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:16 - Oct 12 with 997 views | Gwyn737 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:08 - Oct 12 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
One of my earliest memories of school was a teacher lifting me up by my ears, dragging me across the class room and throwing me outside into a cold dark corridor for something I didn’t even do. I was only about 5. I remember seeing her years later when I was in college and she came up to me as if she was an old friend, I was a good foot and a half taller than her then and had to repress every urge in my body that wanted to break her face. |
Yet a reasonable percentage ok the uk public are in favour of corporal punishment in schools.
Those for it like to point out it never did them any harm.
My response to that argument is yes it did, it seems to have made you think it’s ok for adults to hit kids. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 14:35 - Oct 12 with 950 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 11:29 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
I know of one case where someone basically broke into somebodys house screaming abuse at them and got reported to the law for it. Kept their job. Got moved sideways. Another got sent home on multiple occasions after turning up for work under the influence. Kept their job.
You basically have to steal something, be perpetually on the sick or punch someone in the office to get sacked. Losing your job for incompetence happens so rarely I only know personally of two cases where it has happened in 26 years, and one of those got their job back again on a technicality. |
I have cases in my compoany where people should be facing (at the very least) capability assessments and I have a friend in the NHS and she reckons there's so much incompetence and negligence I wouldn't believe it but the only people who get moved out are the whistleblowers. Thta's hearsay of course but she insists it's true. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 18:01 - Oct 12 with 880 views | onehunglow |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:16 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Yet a reasonable percentage ok the uk public are in favour of corporal punishment in schools.
Those for it like to point out it never did them any harm.
My response to that argument is yes it did, it seems to have made you think it’s ok for adults to hit kids. |
No it didn’t and it does not | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 18:41 - Oct 12 with 853 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:29 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Since you’ve been in school inspection has been introduced. And Performance Related Pay. And the Teacher Standards. And the Teacher Regulation Authority.
If OFSTED came to my school on Monday and it went badly, I’d be out of a job on Thursday. As I would be out of tea job I’d did many of the things mentioned earlier.
I’m not for one minute saying the public sector is completely full of hard working, competent people. But it’s not the other way either. Same as the private sector.
Those positions are ideological, not factual.
Obviously some takes will be down to experience and Ive had much worse service from mechanics, banks and carpet shops than I’ve ever had from doctors, social workers etc. |
We've all had different experiences though, personally I've had bad mechanics and bad doctors. There were bad teachers back in the day too, some were even quite nasty and WOULD be in court these days.
I think the point is that there is good and bad everywhere but being bad these days isn't always a reason for dismissal. In my last 3 jobs (which includes my current role) there have been and are bad workers, the incompetent and workshy. In fact in my current job the workshy in my section have caused a spread, the rest of us wondering why we should bother. [Post edited 12 Oct 18:42]
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 22:30 - Oct 12 with 783 views | Dr_Winston |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 12:55 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
But all not virtually unsackable? |
Relatively? Of course.
By no sensible definition are Government employees "unsackable", it just seems to happen a hell of a lot less than it would for those in the private sector.
Nobody is well served by employees being safe from the consequences of their own uselessness, other than the employees themselves. Not the customers, not their colleagues, not the organisations that they work for. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 07:32 - Oct 13 with 707 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 22:30 - Oct 12 by Dr_Winston |
Relatively? Of course.
By no sensible definition are Government employees "unsackable", it just seems to happen a hell of a lot less than it would for those in the private sector.
Nobody is well served by employees being safe from the consequences of their own uselessness, other than the employees themselves. Not the customers, not their colleagues, not the organisations that they work for. |
Often those in the public sector are suspended on full pay while investigations take place. They are often on "gardening leave" for years at a time or agree to take early retirement rather than disciplinary action. All of course funded by tax payers. | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 09:44 - Oct 13 with 658 views | controversial_jack |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 07:32 - Oct 13 by felixstowe_jack |
Often those in the public sector are suspended on full pay while investigations take place. They are often on "gardening leave" for years at a time or agree to take early retirement rather than disciplinary action. All of course funded by tax payers. |
It's similar in big corps too. Nobody likes to sack another person if there's an alternative. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 14:59 - Oct 13 with 583 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:16 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Yet a reasonable percentage ok the uk public are in favour of corporal punishment in schools.
Those for it like to point out it never did them any harm.
My response to that argument is yes it did, it seems to have made you think it’s ok for adults to hit kids. |
It’s instilling the message from an early age that violence is the answer to life’s problems. I had nightmares about that incident for years and it probably led to my massive mistrust in teachers in later years that probably severely hampered my official education and got me into terrible trouble. Luckily I was always capable of educating myself in my own time through being generally inquisitive and enjoying relentless reading. If I hadn’t had that gift I probably wouldn’t have achieved anything. | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 15:23 - Oct 13 with 560 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 13:16 - Oct 12 by Gwyn737 |
Yet a reasonable percentage ok the uk public are in favour of corporal punishment in schools.
Those for it like to point out it never did them any harm.
My response to that argument is yes it did, it seems to have made you think it’s ok for adults to hit kids. |
Here's the problem though, as I see it, there definitely was too much violence towards kids but now we have hit the other end of the buffers. By that I mean that we go very, very softly on kids now and look at the amount of violence in schools. Nit just on schools, look at the amount of violence meted out by teenagers every day of every week of every month. It's pretty much a constant on the news these days, another knife attack, an OAP getting beaten or even killed, violence from kids towards kids.
dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/teen-boy-charged-murder-after-33602153
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13840837/Fury-police-freed-teenage-knife-thug-15-killed-pensioner-30-minutes-later-ONE-punch.html
bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgmv0kpyxxo
bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2ekjjdzpl0o
benkinsella.org.uk/teenagers-remain-the-most-likely-age-group-to-be-murdered-by-a-knife/
There's plenty of evidence. So what do we do. It won't be a popular thing to say but the old saying "spare the rod, spoil the child" seems to be true. Kids are getting more violent now that they don't get punished at all in any physical way. What is the answer?
PS, we have never smacked our son as a punishment, we do play fight, me and him. He's not in any way violent though, in fact on the sports field he's far too soft! I won't try and claim good parenting, I'll others judge that. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 15:42 - Oct 13 with 524 views | Dr_Winston |
The quality of parenting is more to blame than the lack of corporal punishment IMO. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 15:45 - Oct 13 with 507 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The modern equivalent of smacking would be to take the iPad or PlayStation away for x amount of time but a lot of parents probably don’t want to do that cos when a kid is smacking up prostitutes with a black mamba dildo on grand theft auto or shooting communist scum on cal of duty they are generally out the way and quiet. | |
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| Workers rights "upgrade" on 18:35 - Oct 14 with 365 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 15:42 - Oct 13 by Dr_Winston |
The quality of parenting is more to blame than the lack of corporal punishment IMO. |
Maybe so but many of these poor parents are people who were also brought up with little or no discipline. In turn they don't instil any discipline in their kids, all too often supporting them and defending them when they do wrong.
It's not just the kids who have become more violent, adult behaviour has become more aggressive. Look at thei diots in cars who drive like complete tools but then rant at other drivers for daring to be in their way. There are pelnty of other examples of the selfish and stupid behaviour that blights us.
Discipline is become a thing of the past. | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 19:01 - Oct 14 with 328 views | Gwyn737 |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 18:01 - Oct 12 by onehunglow |
No it didn’t and it does not |
What kind of adult would apply for a job where you have to have a willingness to hit children? | | | |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 20:04 - Oct 14 with 296 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Workers rights "upgrade" on 19:01 - Oct 14 by Gwyn737 |
What kind of adult would apply for a job where you have to have a willingness to hit children? |
That kind of person is out there though. We see people unfit for the job in the police, armed forces and NHS, why should education be different, not just violent people but sex offenders too.
It's part of the human condition that a lot of people cannot control, the urge to violence.
Personally I'm very grateful that all through my sons education he's never had a teacher who was of a violent disposition. My own school life saw several of them, including a deputy head whose weapon of choice was a sawn off cricket bat (Bishop Gore circa 1980-84) rhough that was of course considered a lawful punishment back then.
He used to leave his door open so we could hear the thwacks and the screams echoing down the corridors. | | | |
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