| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:01 - Sep 3 with 1355 views | KeithHaynes |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 07:02 - Sep 2 by Dr_Winston |
The game has progressed into an era of systems rather than squads. We have managers wanting to play the game in a certain way and trying to change players styles to suit it rather than changing styles to suit players.
As a club we've certainly had our fair share recently of coaches who only want to play a certain way even if they don't have the players available that fit it, and it is, at least to me, understandable why players might be a bit narked about it, especially when results and performances aren't forthcoming anyway. |
Over the weekend I heard a few people far more qualified than I could ever wish to be identify what they see as the issue atm. It’s quite simple as you say. However, coupled with a desire for an exacting and specific role which is very much prescribed. They could be well wrong but this is what is referred to as coaching out a players natural ability. An example for me has been the regression of Ollie Cooper over two seasons. They didn’t include Jerry Yates in this as the chances he missed last season were exceptionally bad.
Mention of Abdulai though.
The likes of Ben Cabango revert to a slower playing style as he has a role that requires a more prescriptive way of playing. Matt Grimes is being catered for with him being the lynch pin for Luke Williams to evolve him into the spearhead of the Swans attack, the player that orchestrates everything to an extent. I think he does this but with him playing so safely it isn’t working. His wingers like Ronald and Bianchini need to use pace and be able to make crosses for arriving players in the box.
Ronald is ineffective at this.
The right and left backs are expected to support the wingers but find themselves exposed, especially on the left (Tymon) anyone who has watched the Swans this season will have seen huge gaps left for counter attacks. That results in Darling scrabbling around assisting Tymon as we’ve seen often, and from that leaves space in the box to exploit.
That’s what I’ve been told, it makes sense to me.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:28 - Sep 3 with 1285 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:01 - Sep 3 by KeithHaynes |
Over the weekend I heard a few people far more qualified than I could ever wish to be identify what they see as the issue atm. It’s quite simple as you say. However, coupled with a desire for an exacting and specific role which is very much prescribed. They could be well wrong but this is what is referred to as coaching out a players natural ability. An example for me has been the regression of Ollie Cooper over two seasons. They didn’t include Jerry Yates in this as the chances he missed last season were exceptionally bad.
Mention of Abdulai though.
The likes of Ben Cabango revert to a slower playing style as he has a role that requires a more prescriptive way of playing. Matt Grimes is being catered for with him being the lynch pin for Luke Williams to evolve him into the spearhead of the Swans attack, the player that orchestrates everything to an extent. I think he does this but with him playing so safely it isn’t working. His wingers like Ronald and Bianchini need to use pace and be able to make crosses for arriving players in the box.
Ronald is ineffective at this.
The right and left backs are expected to support the wingers but find themselves exposed, especially on the left (Tymon) anyone who has watched the Swans this season will have seen huge gaps left for counter attacks. That results in Darling scrabbling around assisting Tymon as we’ve seen often, and from that leaves space in the box to exploit.
That’s what I’ve been told, it makes sense to me.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I can recall plenty of people criticising Yates' workrate and apparent lack of positioning, but I don't recall him missing vast numbers of chances. A couple that a more confident striker may have tucked away perhaps, but no more than that. Strikers thrive on confidence. Someone who clearly didn't have his managers backing isn't exactly going to be full of it. We'll see how he gets on at Derby, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if he ends the season in double figures.
Concur completely with the rest though. At the risk of sounding repetitive, it was the exact problem with Martin. A system he was desperately trying to make work, shoehorning numerous players into the wrong positions and the crowd (and sometimes manager) blaming them when it went wrong. We're just trying to do the same thing now.
Football is a very simple game, but there is an entire generation of coaches out there right now doing their level best to complicate it to an absurd degree. At some point I hope there will be an "Emperor's New Clothes" moment when someone decides that it's all a load of proverbial and everyone eventually sees through it. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:47 - Sep 3 with 1242 views | Flashberryjack |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:28 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
I can recall plenty of people criticising Yates' workrate and apparent lack of positioning, but I don't recall him missing vast numbers of chances. A couple that a more confident striker may have tucked away perhaps, but no more than that. Strikers thrive on confidence. Someone who clearly didn't have his managers backing isn't exactly going to be full of it. We'll see how he gets on at Derby, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if he ends the season in double figures.
Concur completely with the rest though. At the risk of sounding repetitive, it was the exact problem with Martin. A system he was desperately trying to make work, shoehorning numerous players into the wrong positions and the crowd (and sometimes manager) blaming them when it went wrong. We're just trying to do the same thing now.
Football is a very simple game, but there is an entire generation of coaches out there right now doing their level best to complicate it to an absurd degree. At some point I hope there will be an "Emperor's New Clothes" moment when someone decides that it's all a load of proverbial and everyone eventually sees through it. |
I would have liked to see a lot more of Mykola Kuharevich, from what I've seen, he's a better option than Vipotnik. |  |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:54 - Sep 3 with 1231 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:47 - Sep 3 by Flashberryjack |
I would have liked to see a lot more of Mykola Kuharevich, from what I've seen, he's a better option than Vipotnik. |
I think people are rushing to judge Vipotnik far too quickly. It's not as if our attack in general is working all that well at the minute. Jury not even got enough evidence to even think about deliberation, never mind out.
Did you see Myk's effort from near enough the halfway line this weekend? | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 21:08 - Sep 3 with 1201 views | swancity |
It’s fair to say that Spain revolutionised the way that stylish and successful football was implemented with their so called tiki-taka short intricate passing patterns utilising players with a low centre of gravity who were all very comfortable on the ball. Many regarded their team of 2008/2012 as the best ever football team and winning the World Cup supported that. Praise indeed.
So you can see why coaches in this country have tried to copy that style. Martinez cleverly brought a version of it to Swansea over night with success even in league one.
But there has become a bit of an obsession with some managers and coaches. You need to have the right type of player and one who wants to play that way. Spain did not take unnecessary risks in defensive areas whilst they did prefer to play out from the back. That football intelligence and decision making of the highest quality can separate the very top player from those who have the ability but not mental strength.
The basics of football are simple. It’s not rocket science and Jobs is quite right with his assessment. We do not have the players, not enough of them to be too intricate. Cabango for example is a very useful championship defender but he’s not good enough on the ball. Joe Rodon of Leeds now is.
I thought that Russell Martin tweaked a couple of things with his methods which paid dividends for Swansea and then at Southampton . Presently I don’t see that we have the players to implement an intricate short passing possession based game but time will tell. Luke knows what he wants but this is not the Swansea City club we all used to love …..
It’s a difficult time for the Club. Balancing the books whilst we try to play a certain way but without enough of the type of player required.
On Yates, I’m not sure he’s a Championship player. Some of the comments on this thread are disgraceful as he’s certainly got ability and some quality but he’s not prolific and never has been. That’s not going to change. |  |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 21:30 - Sep 3 with 1146 views | KeithHaynes |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:54 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
I think people are rushing to judge Vipotnik far too quickly. It's not as if our attack in general is working all that well at the minute. Jury not even got enough evidence to even think about deliberation, never mind out.
Did you see Myk's effort from near enough the halfway line this weekend? |
His goal the other week was special too. | |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 21:59 - Sep 3 with 1098 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 21:30 - Sep 3 by KeithHaynes |
His goal the other week was special too. |
Just raises more questions as to why Williams so steadfastly refused to give him game time, even off the bench. Yes it's the SPL so the lower quality has to be considered, but still. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 22:06 - Sep 3 with 1083 views | Whiterockin |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 21:59 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
Just raises more questions as to why Williams so steadfastly refused to give him game time, even off the bench. Yes it's the SPL so the lower quality has to be considered, but still. |
Pathetic really why he was continually on the bench and never getting on the pitch. As I said at the time, either play him or put someone else on the bench. It all seems rather childish to me. |  | | |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 22:14 - Sep 3 with 1055 views | max936 |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 22:06 - Sep 3 by Whiterockin |
Pathetic really why he was continually on the bench and never getting on the pitch. As I said at the time, either play him or put someone else on the bench. It all seems rather childish to me. |
What's the reasoning behind it though its been three managers now? is it money reasons behaviour reasons ?
A butty of mine has watched him and he's also said he's raw, but unless he plays he's always gonna be raw even if he gets carded its all a learning curve, surely the fans need an explanation as to why he hasn't had a look in. |  |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 23:34 - Sep 3 with 1002 views | KeithHaynes |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 22:14 - Sep 3 by max936 |
What's the reasoning behind it though its been three managers now? is it money reasons behaviour reasons ?
A butty of mine has watched him and he's also said he's raw, but unless he plays he's always gonna be raw even if he gets carded its all a learning curve, surely the fans need an explanation as to why he hasn't had a look in. |
Going back to the explanation I had on the weekend.
He isn’t a robot. | |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 07:14 - Sep 4 with 855 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 22:14 - Sep 3 by max936 |
What's the reasoning behind it though its been three managers now? is it money reasons behaviour reasons ?
A butty of mine has watched him and he's also said he's raw, but unless he plays he's always gonna be raw even if he gets carded its all a learning curve, surely the fans need an explanation as to why he hasn't had a look in. |
It isn't three managers. He was being eased in by Duff. A Young lad, new club, new league, home country currently getting the hell kicked out of it. It's a luxury we currently don't have for Vipotnik. Then he was injured for most of Sheehan's tenure.
The only manager who almost completely ignored him was Williams. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 08:30 - Sep 4 with 791 views | YrAlarch |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 20:28 - Sep 3 by Dr_Winston |
I can recall plenty of people criticising Yates' workrate and apparent lack of positioning, but I don't recall him missing vast numbers of chances. A couple that a more confident striker may have tucked away perhaps, but no more than that. Strikers thrive on confidence. Someone who clearly didn't have his managers backing isn't exactly going to be full of it. We'll see how he gets on at Derby, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if he ends the season in double figures.
Concur completely with the rest though. At the risk of sounding repetitive, it was the exact problem with Martin. A system he was desperately trying to make work, shoehorning numerous players into the wrong positions and the crowd (and sometimes manager) blaming them when it went wrong. We're just trying to do the same thing now.
Football is a very simple game, but there is an entire generation of coaches out there right now doing their level best to complicate it to an absurd degree. At some point I hope there will be an "Emperor's New Clothes" moment when someone decides that it's all a load of proverbial and everyone eventually sees through it. |
Your points about football being 'a very simple game' and coaches complicating it 'to an absurd degree' is, in my opinion, on the button.
The obsession with statistics by coaches, pundits and fans is ridiculous when what matters most is the actual number of goals scored, for and against.
It simply does not matter if we have 70 plus per cent possession if we don't score a goal, sadly an all too frequent occurrence. | | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 09:28 - Sep 4 with 750 views | onehunglow |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 08:30 - Sep 4 by YrAlarch |
Your points about football being 'a very simple game' and coaches complicating it 'to an absurd degree' is, in my opinion, on the button.
The obsession with statistics by coaches, pundits and fans is ridiculous when what matters most is the actual number of goals scored, for and against.
It simply does not matter if we have 70 plus per cent possession if we don't score a goal, sadly an all too frequent occurrence. |
Agree with you both | |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 09:57 - Sep 4 with 725 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 08:30 - Sep 4 by YrAlarch |
Your points about football being 'a very simple game' and coaches complicating it 'to an absurd degree' is, in my opinion, on the button.
The obsession with statistics by coaches, pundits and fans is ridiculous when what matters most is the actual number of goals scored, for and against.
It simply does not matter if we have 70 plus per cent possession if we don't score a goal, sadly an all too frequent occurrence. |
The maddest thing about it is that it's all very reminiscent of Charles Hughes thinking. He was the tactical genius who set English football back years with his statistical obsessions. Working out that moves of around three passes resulted in more goal chances than those with more.
Years of kick and rush football resulted from that. Stats have their place, but you don't build an ethos around them. It's absurd to do so. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 10:34 - Sep 4 with 693 views | pencoedjack |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 09:57 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
The maddest thing about it is that it's all very reminiscent of Charles Hughes thinking. He was the tactical genius who set English football back years with his statistical obsessions. Working out that moves of around three passes resulted in more goal chances than those with more.
Years of kick and rush football resulted from that. Stats have their place, but you don't build an ethos around them. It's absurd to do so. |
I think Russell Martin (& it seems Williams) would disagree.
As said on MOTD on the weekend Southampton's football is suicidal & will result in them getting relegated unless they mix it up.
Keeping the ball for the sake of it bores me to death, and it is part of the reason I gave up my ST. |  | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:08 - Sep 4 with 674 views | KeithHaynes |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 10:34 - Sep 4 by pencoedjack |
I think Russell Martin (& it seems Williams) would disagree.
As said on MOTD on the weekend Southampton's football is suicidal & will result in them getting relegated unless they mix it up.
Keeping the ball for the sake of it bores me to death, and it is part of the reason I gave up my ST. |
Yes, and very frustrating but when it works it’s a joy to see.
Unfortunately it isn’t seen that often and now is getting less and less. | |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:10 - Sep 4 with 662 views | Whiterockin |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:08 - Sep 4 by KeithHaynes |
Yes, and very frustrating but when it works it’s a joy to see.
Unfortunately it isn’t seen that often and now is getting less and less. |
As more coaches are experienced on countering the play. | | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:12 - Sep 4 with 646 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 10:34 - Sep 4 by pencoedjack |
I think Russell Martin (& it seems Williams) would disagree.
As said on MOTD on the weekend Southampton's football is suicidal & will result in them getting relegated unless they mix it up.
Keeping the ball for the sake of it bores me to death, and it is part of the reason I gave up my ST. |
He's very much done what he always does. Used the capital gained from a good spell and gone right back to trying to make his process work.
Southampton fans are tearing their hair out with him. The pragmatism that they saw after his initial crap run with them last season has gone right out of the window again. Just watching the highlights of their last game gave me PTSD. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:00 - Sep 4 with 594 views | YrAlarch |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:12 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
He's very much done what he always does. Used the capital gained from a good spell and gone right back to trying to make his process work.
Southampton fans are tearing their hair out with him. The pragmatism that they saw after his initial crap run with them last season has gone right out of the window again. Just watching the highlights of their last game gave me PTSD. |
I understand your trauma.
Brentford: 36.6% possession 20 shots
Southampton: 63.4% possession 18 shots
Meaningless when you consider the result:: Brentford 3 Southampton 1
That is what counts.
Finally, what is this 'process' nonsense? Goes hand in hand with the 'journey' nonsense. | | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:29 - Sep 4 with 570 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:00 - Sep 4 by YrAlarch |
I understand your trauma.
Brentford: 36.6% possession 20 shots
Southampton: 63.4% possession 18 shots
Meaningless when you consider the result:: Brentford 3 Southampton 1
That is what counts.
Finally, what is this 'process' nonsense? Goes hand in hand with the 'journey' nonsense. |
"You have to be brave to play the way we do" was one of his favourites. Not brave, just utterly stupid.
I think the thing that annoyed me the most is that he obviously knew full well that results and performances improved when we didn't try to play his way. The number of times that we did after a bad run only to swap back once we had won a few games and the pressure eased made that very clear.
During the last bad run I suspect he'd decided to try and bluff his way through it as a lot of people had bought into the " the club hasn't backed me" nonsense and absolved him of results and performances that were very much down to him. At that point the club had clearly decided he just wasn't worth the hassle any more. [Post edited 4 Sep 13:21]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:39 - Sep 4 with 552 views | pencoedjack |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 11:08 - Sep 4 by KeithHaynes |
Yes, and very frustrating but when it works it’s a joy to see.
Unfortunately it isn’t seen that often and now is getting less and less. |
Yes its great Keith if you have players like they do at Man City (as an example) they are technically good enough to do it.
Southampton (or us) don't, and it just ends up passing for the sake of it, which (as I said earlier) bores me to death.
As the Dr says you just get picked off as Brentford did perfectly against Southampton.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to Martin getting sacked or taking Southampton down (as you may have guessed, I am not his biggest fan).
 | | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:45 - Sep 4 with 540 views | PawelAbbott |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:29 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
"You have to be brave to play the way we do" was one of his favourites. Not brave, just utterly stupid.
I think the thing that annoyed me the most is that he obviously knew full well that results and performances improved when we didn't try to play his way. The number of times that we did after a bad run only to swap back once we had won a few games and the pressure eased made that very clear.
During the last bad run I suspect he'd decided to try and bluff his way through it as a lot of people had bought into the " the club hasn't backed me" nonsense and absolved him of results and performances that were very much down to him. At that point the club had clearly decided he just wasn't worth the hassle any more. [Post edited 4 Sep 13:21]
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The way that Martin played was neither entertaining nor successful. The two yard sticks by which to measure a football team.
He says that you have to be brave to play that way, which would be fine if it resulted in great entertainment like Ossie Ardiles stint at Spurs or Keegan at Newcastle.
But, it was really boring.
This concept of the "Swansea way" is starting to hold us back | | | |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 16:00 - Sep 4 with 465 views | pencoedjack |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 12:29 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
"You have to be brave to play the way we do" was one of his favourites. Not brave, just utterly stupid.
I think the thing that annoyed me the most is that he obviously knew full well that results and performances improved when we didn't try to play his way. The number of times that we did after a bad run only to swap back once we had won a few games and the pressure eased made that very clear.
During the last bad run I suspect he'd decided to try and bluff his way through it as a lot of people had bought into the " the club hasn't backed me" nonsense and absolved him of results and performances that were very much down to him. At that point the club had clearly decided he just wasn't worth the hassle any more. [Post edited 4 Sep 13:21]
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Some rather telling stats - pass completion by PatfromPoole 3 Sep 10:00This link is quite interesting.
The only team in the Prem with more completed passes than us is Man.City.
We have 1,795 completed passes.
Newcastle have 758.
Points in the table:
Saints 0
Newcastle 7
Just reinforces my opinion that we should be aiming for 35% possession in matches.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/passing/Premier-League-Stats
Seems Saints fans thinking the same way
Some rather telling stats - pass completion by PatfromPoole 3 Sep 10:00This link is quite interesting.
The only team in the Prem with more completed passes than us is Man.City.
We have 1,795 completed passes.
Newcastle have 758.
Points in the table:
Saints 0
Newcastle 7
Just reinforces my opinion that we should be aiming for 35% possession in matches.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/passing/Premier-League-Stats
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 16:43 - Sep 4 with 416 views | Dr_Winston |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 16:00 - Sep 4 by pencoedjack |
Some rather telling stats - pass completion by PatfromPoole 3 Sep 10:00This link is quite interesting.
The only team in the Prem with more completed passes than us is Man.City.
We have 1,795 completed passes.
Newcastle have 758.
Points in the table:
Saints 0
Newcastle 7
Just reinforces my opinion that we should be aiming for 35% possession in matches.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/passing/Premier-League-Stats
Seems Saints fans thinking the same way
Some rather telling stats - pass completion by PatfromPoole 3 Sep 10:00This link is quite interesting.
The only team in the Prem with more completed passes than us is Man.City.
We have 1,795 completed passes.
Newcastle have 758.
Points in the table:
Saints 0
Newcastle 7
Just reinforces my opinion that we should be aiming for 35% possession in matches.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/passing/Premier-League-Stats
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Archive footage of a Russell Martin team defending...
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 18:56 - Sep 4 with 365 views | KeithHaynes |
| Jerry Yates - Derby ... on 16:43 - Sep 4 by Dr_Winston |
Archive footage of a Russell Martin team defending...
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They are three games in, they need to settle down a bit.
Entitled they are. | |
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