| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years 22:35 - Aug 12 with 691 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Stabbings occurred again today. Some narratives have linked these horrible crimes to immigration after the event in Glasgow a year or two ago and to the Private Rigby murder by two Africans.
Other more common events have occurred by mentally unstable people of all races and origins, This is linked to the closing of Mental asylums and the move to "Deinstitualization".
I am not an expert but I suspect these crimes are more related to the closing of the asylums rather than immigration. The asylums were finally closed in the era of Mrs Thatcher. I actually remember it.
"Deinstitutionalization is the process of replacing long-stay psychiatric hospitals with community-based mental health services for people with mental disorders or developmental disabilities. The goal is to reduce the number of beds in mental hospitals and provide more integrated care within the general healthcare system. Deinstitutionalization can also involve reforming mental hospitals to reduce dependency, hopelessness, and other maladaptive behavior".
"The most important factors that led to deinstitutionalization were changing public attitudes to mental health and mental hospitals, the introduction of psychiatric drugs and individual states' desires to reduce costs from mental hospitals". (USA) [Post edited 12 Aug 22:40]
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| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 06:35 - Aug 13 with 585 views | Scotia |
You'd be absolutely right.
Care in the community doesn't work, in many cases, either for those being cared for or the public. I could give you a number of local examples.
Institutions were largely closed due to cost and abuse. Now there are nowhere near enough community carers and the cash goes to the service user directly. It's a mess. |  | | |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 08:26 - Aug 13 with 518 views | AnotherJohn |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 06:35 - Aug 13 by Scotia |
You'd be absolutely right.
Care in the community doesn't work, in many cases, either for those being cared for or the public. I could give you a number of local examples.
Institutions were largely closed due to cost and abuse. Now there are nowhere near enough community carers and the cash goes to the service user directly. It's a mess. |
There was a reason why the institutions were closed, but many do argue that community care has been grossly underfunded and that there is still a place for secure units. If you want to read about the abuse (i.e. hospital scandals) look here.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hospitals-Trouble-J-P-Martin/dp/0631144625
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sans-Everything-B-Robb/dp/B0006BSQ2M
The process started well before Thatcher brought in the 1990 Act (Enoch Powell was an early advocate).
Regarding the Leicester Square incident, information so far suggests that 32 year old Ioan Pintaru of no fixed address might fit with either of Res's two scenarios. We must wait for more information.
I think Res rather forgets how many cases have been attributed to terrorism. If we leave aside bombings and vehicle attacks and concentrate on stabbings, there are at least the following, not counting many attacks nipped in the bud.
• 2010 MP Stephen Timms stabbed by Roshonara Choudhry
• 2017 London Bridge attack by three Islamists which included stabbings and killed 8.
• Mahdi Mohamud, a Dutch national from a Somali family, stabbed three in a knife attack at Manchester Victoria station.
• 2019 London Bridge stabbing when Usman Khan killed two.
• 2020 Two inmates at Whitemoor prison (Brusthom Ziamani and Baz Hockton) stabbed one prison officer and caused minor injuries to several others.
• 2020 Streatham stabbing when Sudesh Amman injured two people,
• 2020 Reading stabbings when Khairi Saadallah killed three and injured three others.
• 2021 Ali Harbi Ali stabbed MP Sir David Amess at his constituency surgery.
• 2023 Ahmed Ali Alid stabbed Terence Carney to death in Hartlepool and seriously injured another man [Post edited 13 Aug 8:41]
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| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 08:33 - Aug 13 with 507 views | onehunglow |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 08:26 - Aug 13 by AnotherJohn |
There was a reason why the institutions were closed, but many do argue that community care has been grossly underfunded and that there is still a place for secure units. If you want to read about the abuse (i.e. hospital scandals) look here.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hospitals-Trouble-J-P-Martin/dp/0631144625
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sans-Everything-B-Robb/dp/B0006BSQ2M
The process started well before Thatcher brought in the 1990 Act (Enoch Powell was an early advocate).
Regarding the Leicester Square incident, information so far suggests that 32 year old Ioan Pintaru of no fixed address might fit with either of Res's two scenarios. We must wait for more information.
I think Res rather forgets how many cases have been attributed to terrorism. If we leave aside bombings and vehicle attacks and concentrate on stabbings, there are at least the following, not counting many attacks nipped in the bud.
• 2010 MP Stephen Timms stabbed by Roshonara Choudhry
• 2017 London Bridge attack by three Islamists which included stabbings and killed 8.
• Mahdi Mohamud, a Dutch national from a Somali family, stabbed three in a knife attack at Manchester Victoria station.
• 2019 London Bridge stabbing when Usman Khan killed two.
• 2020 Two inmates at Whitemoor prison (Brusthom Ziamani and Baz Hockton) stabbed one prison officer and caused minor injuries to several others.
• 2020 Streatham stabbing when Sudesh Amman injured two people,
• 2020 Reading stabbings when Khairi Saadallah killed three and injured three others.
• 2021 Ali Harbi Ali stabbed MP Sir David Amess at his constituency surgery.
• 2023 Ahmed Ali Alid stabbed Terence Carney to death in Hartlepool and seriously injured another man [Post edited 13 Aug 8:41]
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Seems a trend here . | |
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| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 09:01 - Aug 13 with 490 views | Scotia |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 08:26 - Aug 13 by AnotherJohn |
There was a reason why the institutions were closed, but many do argue that community care has been grossly underfunded and that there is still a place for secure units. If you want to read about the abuse (i.e. hospital scandals) look here.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hospitals-Trouble-J-P-Martin/dp/0631144625
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sans-Everything-B-Robb/dp/B0006BSQ2M
The process started well before Thatcher brought in the 1990 Act (Enoch Powell was an early advocate).
Regarding the Leicester Square incident, information so far suggests that 32 year old Ioan Pintaru of no fixed address might fit with either of Res's two scenarios. We must wait for more information.
I think Res rather forgets how many cases have been attributed to terrorism. If we leave aside bombings and vehicle attacks and concentrate on stabbings, there are at least the following, not counting many attacks nipped in the bud.
• 2010 MP Stephen Timms stabbed by Roshonara Choudhry
• 2017 London Bridge attack by three Islamists which included stabbings and killed 8.
• Mahdi Mohamud, a Dutch national from a Somali family, stabbed three in a knife attack at Manchester Victoria station.
• 2019 London Bridge stabbing when Usman Khan killed two.
• 2020 Two inmates at Whitemoor prison (Brusthom Ziamani and Baz Hockton) stabbed one prison officer and caused minor injuries to several others.
• 2020 Streatham stabbing when Sudesh Amman injured two people,
• 2020 Reading stabbings when Khairi Saadallah killed three and injured three others.
• 2021 Ali Harbi Ali stabbed MP Sir David Amess at his constituency surgery.
• 2023 Ahmed Ali Alid stabbed Terence Carney to death in Hartlepool and seriously injured another man [Post edited 13 Aug 8:41]
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But I think there are around 2500 murders directly attributable to people with known significant mental health issues who haven't been treated - I can remember a few years ago watching a documentary on BBC called something like "why did you murder my Dad?". It's probably still available somewhere.
There are probably 100s of thousands of serious assaults of a similar nature.
These incidents are far more prevalent and preventable than terrorism.
Old style institutions have no place, but there needs to be a solution to care in the community. The service users often do more harm to themselves than they should be able to, often turninng to drugs, alcohol, prostitution, getting pregnant, getting abused in various forms and being totally unable to look after themselves.
A major problem is that drug addiction is paid for from the same NHS budget as mental health provision.
I've no doubt car in the community has the best intentions but does not work. | | | |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 09:20 - Aug 13 with 472 views | Whiterockin |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 09:01 - Aug 13 by Scotia |
But I think there are around 2500 murders directly attributable to people with known significant mental health issues who haven't been treated - I can remember a few years ago watching a documentary on BBC called something like "why did you murder my Dad?". It's probably still available somewhere.
There are probably 100s of thousands of serious assaults of a similar nature.
These incidents are far more prevalent and preventable than terrorism.
Old style institutions have no place, but there needs to be a solution to care in the community. The service users often do more harm to themselves than they should be able to, often turninng to drugs, alcohol, prostitution, getting pregnant, getting abused in various forms and being totally unable to look after themselves.
A major problem is that drug addiction is paid for from the same NHS budget as mental health provision.
I've no doubt car in the community has the best intentions but does not work. |
There is a massive difference between Psychiatric care in the community and what one considers normal care in the community, elderly and those with disabilities ect. The former is normally monitored by the NHS and psychiatric staff, the latter by council or agency staff. They do overlap but all people having psychiatric care are monitored by the NHS. I am not saying it is working, but there is a difference in the care model. |  | | |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 09:32 - Aug 13 with 465 views | AnotherJohn |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 09:01 - Aug 13 by Scotia |
But I think there are around 2500 murders directly attributable to people with known significant mental health issues who haven't been treated - I can remember a few years ago watching a documentary on BBC called something like "why did you murder my Dad?". It's probably still available somewhere.
There are probably 100s of thousands of serious assaults of a similar nature.
These incidents are far more prevalent and preventable than terrorism.
Old style institutions have no place, but there needs to be a solution to care in the community. The service users often do more harm to themselves than they should be able to, often turninng to drugs, alcohol, prostitution, getting pregnant, getting abused in various forms and being totally unable to look after themselves.
A major problem is that drug addiction is paid for from the same NHS budget as mental health provision.
I've no doubt car in the community has the best intentions but does not work. |
I'd say that more UK research is needed, and that mental health, particularly schizophrenia, does play some role. An Oxford researcher recently stated that about 35 murders a year can be attributed to schizophrenia, albeit most being family members. We have to remember that there might be an issue of moral panic and negative impacts on people with mental health problems if the numbers are exaggerated, so this kind of estimate is controversial and can't be accepted as definitive. There is a big US review that suggests about 10% of homicides and 33% of mass homicides are linked to serious mental illness.
https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/reports_publications/serious-mental-illn
Another angle though is that schizophrenia rates are much higher in certain ethnic minority groups, in the view of some commentators because of adverse life events or as some put it, racism. I posted some links to articles on this a week or two ago, This may cloud the relationship to immigration, even if mental health is the issue.
I still think you need to separate homicides in general from multiple victim attacks. With the latter, I don't think you can deny that we have a terrorism problem with an ethnicity dimension and therefore a link to first, second and third generation immigration. | | | |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 20:06 - Aug 13 with 396 views | SullutaCreturned |
If an immigrant murders someone, regardless of any other factors, certain groups of people will always directly attribute it to immigration.
Mebtal health provision and care is failing and people are dying because of it.
In my book it is the same root cause as most, nay all of our other problems, absolutely rubbish governments of the last 50 years.
How many governments of the last 50 years have been any good? It's a short list. | | | |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 20:16 - Aug 13 with 393 views | onehunglow |
| Deinstitualization over the last 50+ years on 20:06 - Aug 13 by SullutaCreturned |
If an immigrant murders someone, regardless of any other factors, certain groups of people will always directly attribute it to immigration.
Mebtal health provision and care is failing and people are dying because of it.
In my book it is the same root cause as most, nay all of our other problems, absolutely rubbish governments of the last 50 years.
How many governments of the last 50 years have been any good? It's a short list. |
NHS in 1947 could cope with our population of the time
Not now | |
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