| Role of Fullbacks. 09:28 - Apr 9 with 3758 views | RichardO |
Given Tymon, Key,Lowe, Placeta and Ronald are some our best assets are they being used effectively in attack and defence, given our midfield is dropping deep. we seem now stuck trying to use the flanks which are effectively being stifled?
We seem to have gone to two at the back not four, and yet again our midfield is dropping too often too deep leaving us, one, unable to win the ball in the midfield, two, limited in our ability to swap play across the pitch in midfield, three, unable to press opposition to stop their progression up the pitch, and four, unable to get on the front foot in games.
If the full backs drop deep then the midfield can push on to link play in the middle of the park and then one full back at a time can then move forward to support the forward play and the other can drop to ensure the much needed defensive cover. |  | | |  |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:33 - Apr 9 with 2984 views | Whiterockin |
Key pushing forward is styfeling Ronald and not allowing him space IMO, it was better with Naughton playing the early ball for Ronald to either run into space or run with the ball. The opposition then had to double up leaving space inside, this seems to be gone with both pushing up. |  | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:50 - Apr 9 with 2955 views | onehunglow |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:33 - Apr 9 by Whiterockin |
Key pushing forward is styfeling Ronald and not allowing him space IMO, it was better with Naughton playing the early ball for Ronald to either run into space or run with the ball. The opposition then had to double up leaving space inside, this seems to be gone with both pushing up. |
A good coach would not this and address it.
It’s not hard to see | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:53 - Apr 9 with 2951 views | builthjack |
Basics. |  |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 12:09 - Apr 9 with 2889 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:33 - Apr 9 by Whiterockin |
Key pushing forward is styfeling Ronald and not allowing him space IMO, it was better with Naughton playing the early ball for Ronald to either run into space or run with the ball. The opposition then had to double up leaving space inside, this seems to be gone with both pushing up. |
Naughton also pushed more forward against Cardiff and the extra work he had to do getting back to defend I would say partly caused his injury we also saw injury problems in Martin's reign for our wingbacks not being played properly.
THE stifling effect on the wingers was one of my points also leaving us exposed to counter attacks on the wing pulling central defenders out wide, leaving opposition midfielders free run from the midfield as our midfield drop deep. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:03 - Apr 9 with 2815 views | scruffyjack |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:50 - Apr 9 by onehunglow |
A good coach would not this and address it.
It’s not hard to see |
Dear me gents, the whole purpose of playing full backs is that they get up in support of the winger.
Great example of that is Angel & Dyer, a constant threat for the opposition. We also have a similar set up, when fit, albeit on a different level, on both sides. All we need now is a centre forward and a late arriving 10 to compliment that threat.
In my humble opinion. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 22:41 - Apr 9 with 2780 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:03 - Apr 9 by scruffyjack |
Dear me gents, the whole purpose of playing full backs is that they get up in support of the winger.
Great example of that is Angel & Dyer, a constant threat for the opposition. We also have a similar set up, when fit, albeit on a different level, on both sides. All we need now is a centre forward and a late arriving 10 to compliment that threat.
In my humble opinion. |
While I understand you sentiment the main purpose of a full back is to defend, Rangel's forays were usually covered by the likes of Leon but against better teams if you pushed on trying to force things, can lead to getting stuffed.We did against Chelsea as we tried to get back in the game Rangel pushed up willy nilly get caught out of his defensive position lossing 4-1, similar could be said this year against Southampton amongst others.
I do understand full backs trying to get forward to get us back in games lately but it does leave us exposed. The last game we had plenty players back and were somewhat unlucky to concede but chasing the game left us exposed to counter attack.
All for getting players forward but need to vary it if something isn't working, the team has looked far more threatening lately with the midfield pushing forward but that has stopped again as per under Martin. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 23:15 - Apr 9 with 2767 views | scruffyjack |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 22:41 - Apr 9 by RichardO |
While I understand you sentiment the main purpose of a full back is to defend, Rangel's forays were usually covered by the likes of Leon but against better teams if you pushed on trying to force things, can lead to getting stuffed.We did against Chelsea as we tried to get back in the game Rangel pushed up willy nilly get caught out of his defensive position lossing 4-1, similar could be said this year against Southampton amongst others.
I do understand full backs trying to get forward to get us back in games lately but it does leave us exposed. The last game we had plenty players back and were somewhat unlucky to concede but chasing the game left us exposed to counter attack.
All for getting players forward but need to vary it if something isn't working, the team has looked far more threatening lately with the midfield pushing forward but that has stopped again as per under Martin. |
Not at all, I cannot remember Rangel going ‘willy nilly’! He advanced with purpose and cover. Whatever level of football, you set out your game plan and contingency. At the end of the day it’s all about players ability and how they execute that game plan. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 23:16 - Apr 9 with 2765 views | swancity |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 22:41 - Apr 9 by RichardO |
While I understand you sentiment the main purpose of a full back is to defend, Rangel's forays were usually covered by the likes of Leon but against better teams if you pushed on trying to force things, can lead to getting stuffed.We did against Chelsea as we tried to get back in the game Rangel pushed up willy nilly get caught out of his defensive position lossing 4-1, similar could be said this year against Southampton amongst others.
I do understand full backs trying to get forward to get us back in games lately but it does leave us exposed. The last game we had plenty players back and were somewhat unlucky to concede but chasing the game left us exposed to counter attack.
All for getting players forward but need to vary it if something isn't working, the team has looked far more threatening lately with the midfield pushing forward but that has stopped again as per under Martin. |
You’re looking for something that’s not there. Good, fit, quick full backs will get forward at every opportunity to support their team-mate on that side of the pitch. To help try to create an over load. You seem to be looking for a stick to beat someone with. You're way wide of the mark. | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:03 - Apr 10 with 2707 views | jackrmee |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:33 - Apr 9 by Whiterockin |
Key pushing forward is styfeling Ronald and not allowing him space IMO, it was better with Naughton playing the early ball for Ronald to either run into space or run with the ball. The opposition then had to double up leaving space inside, this seems to be gone with both pushing up. |
But it doesn’t have to stifle it.
One is more inside looking, compared to the other who likes to bomb up the line.
Overlaps should come into play more.
It’s still early days for these guys playing together and how the manager wantsz
It may look scruffy, but nothing is up to speed yet. |  |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:04 - Apr 10 with 2707 views | jackrmee |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:03 - Apr 9 by scruffyjack |
Dear me gents, the whole purpose of playing full backs is that they get up in support of the winger.
Great example of that is Angel & Dyer, a constant threat for the opposition. We also have a similar set up, when fit, albeit on a different level, on both sides. All we need now is a centre forward and a late arriving 10 to compliment that threat.
In my humble opinion. |
Agree 👍 | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:06 - Apr 10 with 2704 views | jackrmee |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 23:15 - Apr 9 by scruffyjack |
Not at all, I cannot remember Rangel going ‘willy nilly’! He advanced with purpose and cover. Whatever level of football, you set out your game plan and contingency. At the end of the day it’s all about players ability and how they execute that game plan. |
Yes. And ours aren’t very good at the moment. At anything. | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:12 - Apr 10 with 2691 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 23:16 - Apr 9 by swancity |
You’re looking for something that’s not there. Good, fit, quick full backs will get forward at every opportunity to support their team-mate on that side of the pitch. To help try to create an over load. You seem to be looking for a stick to beat someone with. You're way wide of the mark. |
At every opportunity, think you need to rethink that while pushing forward they can leave big gaps for opposition forwards to exploit especially if the team isn't set up right.
I have the utmost repect for the abilities of Rangel and the defeat against Chelsea was when we tried to force it after going behind.
You might remember Pratley, Dyer and Rangel in the Championship all on top of each other in the opponents defensive third getting crosses in but with insufficient people in the box to take advantage, it is all about balance within the team.
You might of noticed when Liverpool played Man City a couple of years back Liverpool's fullbacks did not push forward as often as they normally would to keep the their defence solid against an good attack minded City team while then relying on the abilities of their own forwards.
Manning was very prone to bombing forward at every opportunity that was why Cooper played Bidwell in front of him to keep us defensively solid because otherwise big gaps left got punished and Martin had to learn how to use Manning properly and look as if by the end of their time here he did.
As for overloads why would you wanted to overload an area when the players are better suited and have the ability to take on players one on one by condensing the pitch you are reducing that chance, you want to isolate their fullbacks.
Rangel made space by good quick incisive passing and movement with like minded players around him, we arenot seeing that at the moment. [Post edited 10 Apr 8:27]
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:25 - Apr 10 with 2683 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:03 - Apr 9 by scruffyjack |
Dear me gents, the whole purpose of playing full backs is that they get up in support of the winger.
Great example of that is Angel & Dyer, a constant threat for the opposition. We also have a similar set up, when fit, albeit on a different level, on both sides. All we need now is a centre forward and a late arriving 10 to compliment that threat.
In my humble opinion. |
Early days for Ronald and Key playing together and Tymon and Placheta seem to have a good relationship building until Placheta injury, all for overlapping full back play but by the play being relativity slow by the lack of quick passing the centre forward and the number 10 are already in the box waiting instead of coming onto the crosses.
By slowing everything down at the back it spreads throughout the team making us static and predictable to defend against. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 12:41 - Apr 10 with 2631 views | angryjack |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 09:33 - Apr 9 by Whiterockin |
Key pushing forward is styfeling Ronald and not allowing him space IMO, it was better with Naughton playing the early ball for Ronald to either run into space or run with the ball. The opposition then had to double up leaving space inside, this seems to be gone with both pushing up. |
Spot on,that's what I been noticing | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 12:48 - Apr 10 with 2619 views | onehunglow |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 12:41 - Apr 10 by angryjack |
Spot on,that's what I been noticing |
Frankly,angry,it’s pretty obvious or it should be.
Easy to rectify for a proper coach which Williams is not.IMO. | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 13:55 - Apr 10 with 2595 views | swancity |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 08:12 - Apr 10 by RichardO |
At every opportunity, think you need to rethink that while pushing forward they can leave big gaps for opposition forwards to exploit especially if the team isn't set up right.
I have the utmost repect for the abilities of Rangel and the defeat against Chelsea was when we tried to force it after going behind.
You might remember Pratley, Dyer and Rangel in the Championship all on top of each other in the opponents defensive third getting crosses in but with insufficient people in the box to take advantage, it is all about balance within the team.
You might of noticed when Liverpool played Man City a couple of years back Liverpool's fullbacks did not push forward as often as they normally would to keep the their defence solid against an good attack minded City team while then relying on the abilities of their own forwards.
Manning was very prone to bombing forward at every opportunity that was why Cooper played Bidwell in front of him to keep us defensively solid because otherwise big gaps left got punished and Martin had to learn how to use Manning properly and look as if by the end of their time here he did.
As for overloads why would you wanted to overload an area when the players are better suited and have the ability to take on players one on one by condensing the pitch you are reducing that chance, you want to isolate their fullbacks.
Rangel made space by good quick incisive passing and movement with like minded players around him, we arenot seeing that at the moment. [Post edited 10 Apr 8:27]
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Just take a look at the best clubs in world football and how they play.
Manchester City and Liverpool to name two of the best
Full backs getting forward whenever they can. Overlapping and cutting inside to offer support. It’s how you maximise the potential of your players. The intention is to create an over load whereby your team outnumber the opponent in that area of the pitch. Or try to.
By the way both Bidwell and Manning are both equally very good at getting forward. You are looking for things that aren’t there. | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 16:10 - Apr 10 with 2569 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 13:55 - Apr 10 by swancity |
Just take a look at the best clubs in world football and how they play.
Manchester City and Liverpool to name two of the best
Full backs getting forward whenever they can. Overlapping and cutting inside to offer support. It’s how you maximise the potential of your players. The intention is to create an over load whereby your team outnumber the opponent in that area of the pitch. Or try to.
By the way both Bidwell and Manning are both equally very good at getting forward. You are looking for things that aren’t there. |
Just because both Bidwell and Manning are good at getting forward doesn't mean the gaps in the defensive area of the pitch wouldn't appear. Bidwell was the safeguard and cover for Mannings marauding forward and we sure suffered for it with the lack of Bidwell in front of Manning under Martin.
As for City and Liverpool being the best at overlapping, yes and that is why with the counter attack it meant the teams had to be defensively solid maybe you didn't pay attention to the comment regarding Liverpool and City not overlapping so much?
I have to say that others have pointed out the same stifling of the wingers that you say isn't there.
Do let's attack, attack with no care for defensive as Martin did for most of his two years with us and yet with a change of formation with the same team got better results.
Why would you want an overload if the winger has the beating of the full back, if you get the ball quickly to a good winger feet or in behind the full back they don't need the overlapping full back.
The use of overlapping full backs is a good option but it would seem as if teams are setting up to block the path forward on the flanks against us successfully of late. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 16:23 - Apr 10 with 2563 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:03 - Apr 9 by scruffyjack |
Dear me gents, the whole purpose of playing full backs is that they get up in support of the winger.
Great example of that is Angel & Dyer, a constant threat for the opposition. We also have a similar set up, when fit, albeit on a different level, on both sides. All we need now is a centre forward and a late arriving 10 to compliment that threat.
In my humble opinion. |
Sorry but the whole purpose of a full back is to defend the flank but push up when the chance arises. Sometimes the full back will overklap and get the cross in. These players need to learn their partnership, work it between them instead of getting in each thers ways.
Its why I'm always puzzled about playing wing backs when we haven't got wing backs. Back in the Toshack era we only had full backs but Jimmy would push forward when he could, when there was time and space, but when we were defending, Jimmy would be back in position.
If we are playing a back 4 then play the proper full back role. Which is to support the winger when you can but not to get in his way and stifle him.
Mind you, it does help if the central midfield are also available to support the wingers going forward and not behaving like scared rookies who play safe at every turn.
Too many of our players are strolling through games. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 17:08 - Apr 10 with 2554 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 16:23 - Apr 10 by SullutaCreturned |
Sorry but the whole purpose of a full back is to defend the flank but push up when the chance arises. Sometimes the full back will overklap and get the cross in. These players need to learn their partnership, work it between them instead of getting in each thers ways.
Its why I'm always puzzled about playing wing backs when we haven't got wing backs. Back in the Toshack era we only had full backs but Jimmy would push forward when he could, when there was time and space, but when we were defending, Jimmy would be back in position.
If we are playing a back 4 then play the proper full back role. Which is to support the winger when you can but not to get in his way and stifle him.
Mind you, it does help if the central midfield are also available to support the wingers going forward and not behaving like scared rookies who play safe at every turn.
Too many of our players are strolling through games. |
Got to agree with your comment
"Mind you, it does help if the central midfield are also available to support the wingers going forward and not behaving like scared rookies who play safe at every turn."
If teams are doubling up on problematic wingers then there should be space elsewhere to be exploited with the midfield so deep they are unable to help in doing so.
Our setup needs to be adaptable to whoever we are playing, how they set up against us and how they make changes to their setup and personel to get the better of us during the game.
Does seem at the moment we are making substitutions as decide before the game has started not in reaction to on field play , but to be fair the options are limited and injuries happen during games to upset plans. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 17:36 - Apr 10 with 2533 views | swancity |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 16:10 - Apr 10 by RichardO |
Just because both Bidwell and Manning are good at getting forward doesn't mean the gaps in the defensive area of the pitch wouldn't appear. Bidwell was the safeguard and cover for Mannings marauding forward and we sure suffered for it with the lack of Bidwell in front of Manning under Martin.
As for City and Liverpool being the best at overlapping, yes and that is why with the counter attack it meant the teams had to be defensively solid maybe you didn't pay attention to the comment regarding Liverpool and City not overlapping so much?
I have to say that others have pointed out the same stifling of the wingers that you say isn't there.
Do let's attack, attack with no care for defensive as Martin did for most of his two years with us and yet with a change of formation with the same team got better results.
Why would you want an overload if the winger has the beating of the full back, if you get the ball quickly to a good winger feet or in behind the full back they don't need the overlapping full back.
The use of overlapping full backs is a good option but it would seem as if teams are setting up to block the path forward on the flanks against us successfully of late. |
You’re doing your best to find a fault with something when it doesn’t exist. I’d prefer to go along with the likes of Klopp and Guardiola. | |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 18:16 - Apr 10 with 2484 views | RichardO |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 17:36 - Apr 10 by swancity |
You’re doing your best to find a fault with something when it doesn’t exist. I’d prefer to go along with the likes of Klopp and Guardiola. |
So you see nothing wrong with the way we are playing then? | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 19:54 - Apr 10 with 2452 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 18:16 - Apr 10 by RichardO |
So you see nothing wrong with the way we are playing then? |
The full backs and wingers are literally our only attacking threat. The amount of decent balls we got into the box against qpr with absolutely nobody attacking them is proof of that. |  |
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| Role of Fullbacks. on 21:34 - Apr 10 with 2435 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 13:55 - Apr 10 by swancity |
Just take a look at the best clubs in world football and how they play.
Manchester City and Liverpool to name two of the best
Full backs getting forward whenever they can. Overlapping and cutting inside to offer support. It’s how you maximise the potential of your players. The intention is to create an over load whereby your team outnumber the opponent in that area of the pitch. Or try to.
By the way both Bidwell and Manning are both equally very good at getting forward. You are looking for things that aren’t there. |
Yes, get forward at every opportunity but its not the whole point of playing full backs. Their primary role is to defend. it's secondary that they get forward when they can and support the attack.
If I said the whole point of playng a centre forard is to defend set pieces, what would you say? Yet in Bon's time he was one of our best defenders of set pieces. It was a secondary job for him. | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 22:31 - Apr 10 with 2417 views | scruffyjack |
Good heavens, what was Josh Key doing, going forward and scoring a goal? | | | |
| Role of Fullbacks. on 22:56 - Apr 10 with 2401 views | RichardO |
Don't think anyone ever said for the fullbacks not to get forward ever in a game.and Key wasn't overlapping the winger when he scored and it was from a break away not the pedestrian passing out from the back. Who would have guessed. | | | |
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