| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? 22:55 - Jan 23 with 7165 views | numptydumpty |
Obviously seen ourselves consistently do this under Marti.
However almost all premiership teams now do this and a great majority of EFL clubs operate with this tactic now also.
And it's not just ourselves that have the occasional rick , which leads to a rather embarrassing goal conceded.
I certainly feel in general, it's a positive tactic that gives the team time to work out how they can potentially unlock defences up top but sticking to this, 100 percent of the time is odd and in our case if you don't necessarily have the players who completely capable of being SAFE whilst doing this - in our case Dunne and Kakay - and it seems a mistake is always a possibility.
When you have John Stones or Virgil Van Dyk, it's understandable.
For me with ourselves, we also currently have a goalkeeper who does not have the safe pass out in his locker either.
Got to admit I hated watching Ainsworth tactics and much prefer maintaining possession which gives us more chances to threaten but sometimes I feel players must occasionally be allowed to do the agricultural boot up field, especially with ourselves having the outlet of the pace and power of Sinclair Armstrong.
It's definitely now the gameplan for the majority but it can really be a bit of a heart in mouth or dumb ass tactic when players can be intercepted or caught in possession and rather embarrassing f##k ups do happen.
Anyone in the know why this is now such a widely used part of the modern game..
[Post edited 23 Jan 22:57]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 23:16 - Jan 23 with 5920 views | plasmahoop |
If you knock it long, you more often than not lose the ball. But I agree I think a bit of pragmatism wouldn't go amiss. If the opposition are pressing with lots of numbers, definitely knock a few long balls in.
In the Premier league if I was managing, I would definitely go long v man city or Liverpool. They press high, then just foul you in the unlikely event you play through the press. Then often don't get booked when they should. I'd settle for a right bastard of a game, long ball fight for it and disrupt the play. Why take on man city at their own game? |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 23:30 - Jan 23 with 5878 views | HAYESBOY |
What I find strange is that the most tippy tappy teams who look to keep the ball by playing out from the back will start a game from kick off with a big punt up the pitch to anyone who will chase it. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 23:33 - Jan 23 with 5864 views | Boston |
Because it's pretty. | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 00:09 - Jan 24 with 5784 views | loftupper |
First goal came from a long(ish) ball played out to Dykes on the half way line. Being able to mix it up is key. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 00:20 - Jan 24 with 5757 views | aston_hoop |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 00:09 - Jan 24 by loftupper |
First goal came from a long(ish) ball played out to Dykes on the half way line. Being able to mix it up is key. |
That longish ball came off the back of us playing it around the back for a period looking for an opening. Which I suppose really backs up the point about being able to mix it up, I think Cifuentes himself mentioned something along those lines when he was appointed |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 00:21 - Jan 24 with 5754 views | charmr |
Playing out the back is great in practice and definitely some snobbery involved in doing it. How many teams start to play out the back then hit it long with no purpose anyway. Rangers do it all day long. This is what made it so refreshing about our first goal vs Millwall. Dykes dropped in for the out rather then 1v1 trying to win a header with a defender that plays there because that’s what they are good at. Broke Millwall's press and off we go into their final 3rd. Chance created, chance taken.
Ainsworth and Holloway were hit the channels as the primary objective rather then clear when the press is getting too much.
I went to Dagenham vs Wealdstone recently and both teams were playing out the back but for 90 mins got nowhere. Never gets mentioned that in the end the ball ends up getting launched down the field anyway. Look for it, happens all the time.
Not even the top teams can do it sometimes including Man City at times. You can play pretty all day and yet concede from a dead ball or a mistake.
Gk distribution is the key inmo as much as anything. Possession isn’t a modern thing look at Rangers under Sexton and Venables. What I saw under them was the chest pass. Up through the lines, chest pass (stainrod) to upcoming midfield runner (Gregory). Givens to Francis etc. Don’t see that anymore.
It’s definitely better then hit and hope and fight for scraps. Barcelona under Pep. No giants in that team. As Pep said ‘what’s a 2nd ball’ [Post edited 24 Jan 0:27]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 01:05 - Jan 24 with 5674 views | LazyFan |
The idea is if you play from the back, you can draw the oppo out, and then this finds gaps either down the side or in the middle to play it upfield and build attacks. As opposed to lumping it up and losing it, which is what happens these days for most team.
HOWEVER ... the reason that most teams lose the ball is they do not have the players to head the ball or hold it up properly. You know like Sir Les used too, Mark Falco, Crouch, Furs, Rob Steiner and even Colin Clarke, who was not that great, was at least great at holding the ball up.
The good old target man does not exist anymore; you cannot find em. Even holding up the ball is too much trouble. Hence that's why they have to drop deep as number 9 into the middle to get the ball without being tackled.
Dean Ashton was probably one of the best headers and hold up players of the ball ever, but he got injured in an England training session after just being called up and was never the same again and had to retire early. He was just awesome, lump it up and it would stick to him 95% of the time. No need to worry about getting out of your own half or any midfield pretty triangles nonsense.
These players like Sir Les, Dixon, Quinn, Fashunu, Smith, Bracewell, Falco and so on ... will probably never be seen again as they often cannot get past all the tika-tika players in the academy ahead of them. Kane really is this sort of player and we probably won't see his like again after he's gone. They why no one is close to Kane in the world, he's the last of the old-school forwards. |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 01:41 - Jan 24 with 5655 views | numptydumpty |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 01:05 - Jan 24 by LazyFan |
The idea is if you play from the back, you can draw the oppo out, and then this finds gaps either down the side or in the middle to play it upfield and build attacks. As opposed to lumping it up and losing it, which is what happens these days for most team.
HOWEVER ... the reason that most teams lose the ball is they do not have the players to head the ball or hold it up properly. You know like Sir Les used too, Mark Falco, Crouch, Furs, Rob Steiner and even Colin Clarke, who was not that great, was at least great at holding the ball up.
The good old target man does not exist anymore; you cannot find em. Even holding up the ball is too much trouble. Hence that's why they have to drop deep as number 9 into the middle to get the ball without being tackled.
Dean Ashton was probably one of the best headers and hold up players of the ball ever, but he got injured in an England training session after just being called up and was never the same again and had to retire early. He was just awesome, lump it up and it would stick to him 95% of the time. No need to worry about getting out of your own half or any midfield pretty triangles nonsense.
These players like Sir Les, Dixon, Quinn, Fashunu, Smith, Bracewell, Falco and so on ... will probably never be seen again as they often cannot get past all the tika-tika players in the academy ahead of them. Kane really is this sort of player and we probably won't see his like again after he's gone. They why no one is close to Kane in the world, he's the last of the old-school forwards. |
Understand the drawing players out of position etc, but often it takes too long to see out a pass forward and sometimes instead of lumping it down the channels, teams get clumsy, are closed down, but seem worried they not playing the tactic, play a hospital ball and it ends up with great chance for the opposition.
Sure it's been proven by stats men that it's a successful tactic as its used by most teams... | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 06:16 - Jan 24 with 5500 views | QPROslo |
Need to keep possession with ideally fast passing out of defence through the "thirds" seems the current buzzword. But variety is key and when we have Dykes, Armstrong and Smyth occasional long balls for Dykes to take in the air and hold/ lay off, and behind defences for the 2 quick blokes to sprint onto is a tactic that works well for us. We do vary our play as against Millwall. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 07:41 - Jan 24 with 5403 views | Northernr |
Trying to be a long ball team didn't exactly work brilliantly for us under GA. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 07:45 - Jan 24 with 5391 views | FDC |
As others have said, if it works as intended the long incisive pass forward is not instead of passing it around the back and out of defence, it's a consequence of having moved the opposition out of their shape to create the opportunity. In terms of doing it poorly or with ill-suited personnel, I guess this is the teething stages of building a sustained philosophy and style, and I'm happy to see it lead to mistakes on occasion in the short term if we develop in this direction longterm.
As for the broader trend, again I'd rather that be the case than for football to be all about every team just hoofing up to the big lad. On the whole it makes for a more enjoyable spectacle, and - sigh - a more marketable product. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 08:03 - Jan 24 with 5318 views | stevec |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 07:45 - Jan 24 by FDC |
As others have said, if it works as intended the long incisive pass forward is not instead of passing it around the back and out of defence, it's a consequence of having moved the opposition out of their shape to create the opportunity. In terms of doing it poorly or with ill-suited personnel, I guess this is the teething stages of building a sustained philosophy and style, and I'm happy to see it lead to mistakes on occasion in the short term if we develop in this direction longterm.
As for the broader trend, again I'd rather that be the case than for football to be all about every team just hoofing up to the big lad. On the whole it makes for a more enjoyable spectacle, and - sigh - a more marketable product. |
Agree. For playing out from the back to be really successful it’s necessary to have midfielders who can turn with the ball. If a midfielder can do that well he’ll be playing at the top level, not in a Championship side, or at least not for very long.
Consequently in this league and below it’ll go wrong more than right.
As been said, you have to mix it up to make it work. It was inspiring to see Colback doing this on Saturday, handy that Dykes had an unexpected hand in distributing that work here and there. The proviso at the moment, Millwall were awful and you don’t often get that level of space with fives across the middle, but for the moment I’m clinging onto that. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 08:12 - Jan 24 with 5296 views | FDC |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 08:03 - Jan 24 by stevec |
Agree. For playing out from the back to be really successful it’s necessary to have midfielders who can turn with the ball. If a midfielder can do that well he’ll be playing at the top level, not in a Championship side, or at least not for very long.
Consequently in this league and below it’ll go wrong more than right.
As been said, you have to mix it up to make it work. It was inspiring to see Colback doing this on Saturday, handy that Dykes had an unexpected hand in distributing that work here and there. The proviso at the moment, Millwall were awful and you don’t often get that level of space with fives across the middle, but for the moment I’m clinging onto that. |
100% regarding Colback. With him out of the team we get much more of the aimless and increasingly nervous passes backward and forwards across the back line, with more opportunities for the opposition to press and more opportunities for costly mistakes. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:09 - Jan 24 with 5124 views | stantheman10 |
It worked well for Middlesbrough last night!  | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:15 - Jan 24 with 5097 views | baz_qpr |
Worth listening to that tactics podcast Marti was on a couple of years ago. Clive can maybe repost the link. Marti talks about the principles, a) If you have the ball the opposition dont and B) moving the opposition around to create / find space. But Marti talks about in great technical detail which is very enlightening |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:35 - Jan 24 with 5021 views | MrSheen |
The thing about the first twenty-five minutes on Saturday is that we tried long ball and play-it-out and neither worked. Having Armstrong up front encouraged a lot of Ainsworth-ball, that he either lost or watched sail into touch, but the short stuff wasn't any better. What changed us is either Dykes pulling onto an empty centre circle for once, or being noticed for once, so the high press could be beaten with a chip forward rather than a pass sideways. Good control, helped by being left alone, and early ball out wide, and we're ahead.
I think the reason teams play out from the back now is because they can. I don't know if its better pitches or an emphasis on skills rather than results in kids football, but the transformation in the ability of players is extraordinary in a single generation. Never mind the goalkeepers, think back to how uncomfortable the likes of Terrell Forbes, Georges Santos and Marc Bircham, all committed brave players, were, with the ball at their feet and time on their hands. I might have mentioned it before, but the penny dropped for me when I saw Carlisle play Forest Green in League 2 on a billiard table pitch five years ago (granted in October), and both sides pinged and slid the ball around like 1970 Brazil (albeit without any goals). |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:50 - Jan 24 with 4975 views | numptydumpty |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 07:41 - Jan 24 by Northernr |
Trying to be a long ball team didn't exactly work brilliantly for us under GA. |
Wasn't saying its wrong. Want us to be playing it.
Saying I prefer it to long ball game but not 100% of the time, especially if a player is likely to make a mistake that let's the opposition in.
That situation I would prefer to hit it long as the chance for the opposition does not happen.
Ie Bournemouth game Dunne falling over is an example.... | |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:56 - Jan 24 with 4946 views | hoops_legend |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 09:50 - Jan 24 by numptydumpty |
Wasn't saying its wrong. Want us to be playing it.
Saying I prefer it to long ball game but not 100% of the time, especially if a player is likely to make a mistake that let's the opposition in.
That situation I would prefer to hit it long as the chance for the opposition does not happen.
Ie Bournemouth game Dunne falling over is an example.... |
It needs to be done at the right time and I would say that’s almost 90% of the time! The players are professionals and should be seeking our space that way. Then if a gap is created they can go for long ball
I hate long ball, my Sunday morning team can play that effectively- I don’t pay money to watch that! |  |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:02 - Jan 24 with 4927 views | daveB |
This is how kids are taught to play from 6 years of age and why they are not very good at knocking it long, it's what they are good at, was something Trevor Brooking brought into youth football about 20 years ago |  | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:18 - Jan 24 with 4864 views | MrSheen |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:02 - Jan 24 by daveB |
This is how kids are taught to play from 6 years of age and why they are not very good at knocking it long, it's what they are good at, was something Trevor Brooking brought into youth football about 20 years ago |
Someone mentioned Conor Wickham on the free agents list. I remember him being touted as the best young striker in a generation because he was big and strong. Now I see young players I've never heard of getting England debuts in friendlies showing incredible ball skills, with plenty more where they came from. They may not have the same tenacity and commitment as an earlier generation, but their technical ability is off the scales of what was expected 20-30 years ago. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:43 - Jan 24 with 4789 views | Jules4367 |
In one of Marti's first interviews he stated that possession was key. He said 'if you have the ball, keep it and if you lose the ball, get it back- without the ball you cannot score- that is football!'
However, what he has subsequently found is that we are better at losing possession than getting it back and therefore I think he is trying to maximise the time we have possession.
The issue is not the tactic, but the ability (inability ) of the players to close control it, especially when pressed. Too many times we find the players having to put the ball out or under pressure passing to the crowd.
As others have said, mix it up but know that if you lose it, get it back....(Jack/Sam you don't have to foul to do this!) | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 10:54 - Jan 24 with 4739 views | NorthantsHoop |
Watching the Chelsea v Boro game last night a prime example of the gulf between Championship and Premier teams able to play quickly and effectively from the back. Boro were caught out so many times as Chelsea shut them down and had the quality of attacking players to force a press and mistakes, which led to goals being scored. Our trouble is we can't move the ball quickly enough from back to front and get caught out , the key is to move the swiftly through the centre of the park rather than the me to you, you to me that our central defenders tend to indulge in, also Sam Field our defensive midfield player is far too slow in sorting out his positioning and feet to drive the ball forward when receiving from the keeper or from the defenders. Think Dixon-Bonner is a much better option in driving forward from the back to the forward line. [Post edited 24 Jan 10:56]
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 11:43 - Jan 24 with 4643 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 08:12 - Jan 24 by FDC |
100% regarding Colback. With him out of the team we get much more of the aimless and increasingly nervous passes backward and forwards across the back line, with more opportunities for the opposition to press and more opportunities for costly mistakes. |
You need a midfield with the capability and desire to receive the ball from the back line.
Colback is capable and comfortable doing it, Field less so, Dozzell didn't want to know.
Like everything in life, you need balance. The key is trusting in the players game intelligence to make the right decisions at the right time. Some can't be trusted. | | | |
| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 11:56 - Jan 24 with 4609 views | Bluce_Ree |
I've seen so many shitty QPR sides boof the ball up the field and then lose it because we've got no bite in midfield. Playing it out is the right thing to do. |  |
| Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. |
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| Playing out from the back - Everyone is doing it - WHY ??? on 11:57 - Jan 24 with 4602 views | lassel |
At a theoretical level, you can’t score without the ball and you can’t concede if you have the ball, obviously QPR can concede in any scenario…
If the other team turns the ball over to you, kicking it long is a 50/50 of immediately giving it away, so statistically, playing out from the back gives you a better chance of regaining possession.
Now QPR are no good at playing it out, or winning 50/50s so we are between a rock and a hard place. | | | |
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