| The 20MPH punishments 08:34 - Aug 3 with 137466 views | SullutaCreturned |
Well the punishment for breaking the limit,
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/police-confirm-how-punish-drivers-
Given how many idiots are on the roads, the delivery drivers under pressure and the actual difficutly in staying below 20 (it is difficult, I do it every week when I go to Cardiff and it's harder than you'd think, specially going downhill) there will be a lot of speeding going on.
The Senedd expect the fire brigade to become a road safety unit, how stupid is that? The fire brigade have their job and it's hard enough for them to do that the way the Senedd behaves.
Then there's the pollution problem, all those cars tootling around in second gear will fill the streets with pollution, it'll rise and rise and the few accidents stopped by this madness will be replaced tenfold and more in the years to come by serious health issues, those with asthma can look out, better buy your respirators now.
I wonder if cancers will also increase?
By the time we have all gone electric, assuming we all do, thousands of lives will be blighted by illness. |  | | |  |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:23 - Oct 6 with 1282 views | pencoedjack |
It seems he goes out of his way to drive through English 20 mph zones on the way to Bristol airport to prove a point, he obviously has time on his hands. |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:58 - Oct 6 with 1250 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:23 - Oct 6 by pencoedjack |
It seems he goes out of his way to drive through English 20 mph zones on the way to Bristol airport to prove a point, he obviously has time on his hands. |
I thought the only 20mph on the way to the airport was that little bit past Bedminster cricket club. But then again I could be wrong. It probably depends which way you go. |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 17:09 - Oct 6 with 1230 views | onehunglow |
Hang on ,driving to Bristol airport from south Wales sees one go through 20 mph zones?
We must be blessed here
Manchester airport 40 mins away by motorway then smart motorway right to the terminals .
Liverpool airport via motorway,tunnels,then riverside by pass with not a 20 mph in sight . It’s great oop north  | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 17:17 - Oct 6 with 1219 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:58 - Oct 6 by Whiterockin |
I thought the only 20mph on the way to the airport was that little bit past Bedminster cricket club. But then again I could be wrong. It probably depends which way you go. |
Haven’t said that I drive through 20mph zones to get to Bristol Airport, that’s Pen with his attempt at some sort of humour. |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:16 - Oct 6 with 1178 views | majorraglan |
I’m generally in favour of 20mph speed limits BUT ONLY in the right places and not as a blanket policy. I support them outside care homes, schools, hospitals, parks and other areas where there is a demonstrable safety benefit, but this blanket 20mph is in my opinion poor.
In terms of Bristol, I’m a regular visitor to the city as I have family living there and I can confirm the 20mph limit is very very widespread, it’s not as bad as it is here but it really is extensive once you come off the main trunk road thoroughfares you’re not far off a 20mph zone. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:46 - Oct 6 with 1170 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:16 - Oct 6 by majorraglan |
I’m generally in favour of 20mph speed limits BUT ONLY in the right places and not as a blanket policy. I support them outside care homes, schools, hospitals, parks and other areas where there is a demonstrable safety benefit, but this blanket 20mph is in my opinion poor.
In terms of Bristol, I’m a regular visitor to the city as I have family living there and I can confirm the 20mph limit is very very widespread, it’s not as bad as it is here but it really is extensive once you come off the main trunk road thoroughfares you’re not far off a 20mph zone. |
It’s not a blanket policy. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:51 - Oct 6 with 1167 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:46 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
It’s not a blanket policy. |
When local authorities have to apply for special permission to retain 30mph limits where they previously existed, it's a blanket policy.
That's a semantic argument almost as baseless as the one that this whole thing has been brought in on safety grounds. I thought we'd proved that that was nonsense quite some time ago on this very thread. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 19:30 - Oct 6 with 1158 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:51 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
When local authorities have to apply for special permission to retain 30mph limits where they previously existed, it's a blanket policy.
That's a semantic argument almost as baseless as the one that this whole thing has been brought in on safety grounds. I thought we'd proved that that was nonsense quite some time ago on this very thread. |
Nothing has been proved to that effect though.
Numerous studies have shown that driving at lower speeds saves lives and serious injury, a couple of them have been put up on this thread but seem to have been ignored. Someone has even suggested that deaths have increased in 20mph limits, then the study goes on to state that almost 90% of the drivers in that particular area were exceeding the speed limit.
I’m of the opinion that if the 20mph limit is adhered to a number of deaths and many serious injuries will be saved. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:02 - Oct 6 with 1129 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:30 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
Nothing has been proved to that effect though.
Numerous studies have shown that driving at lower speeds saves lives and serious injury, a couple of them have been put up on this thread but seem to have been ignored. Someone has even suggested that deaths have increased in 20mph limits, then the study goes on to state that almost 90% of the drivers in that particular area were exceeding the speed limit.
I’m of the opinion that if the 20mph limit is adhered to a number of deaths and many serious injuries will be saved. |
Your last line is the problem, the reason for many and maybe most of the problems is the bad drivers, the idiots on the road who cannot wait. Another one overtook me damgerously in Birchgrove this morning.
There is still an issue as yet to be quantified, the amount of extra pollution as a result of lower gears being used and the amount of extra petrol being used (the extra cost incurrd by drivers) and it will take a fair while to know this.
There ara also studies that show very little positive from 20mph zones. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:11 - Oct 6 with 1123 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:30 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
Nothing has been proved to that effect though.
Numerous studies have shown that driving at lower speeds saves lives and serious injury, a couple of them have been put up on this thread but seem to have been ignored. Someone has even suggested that deaths have increased in 20mph limits, then the study goes on to state that almost 90% of the drivers in that particular area were exceeding the speed limit.
I’m of the opinion that if the 20mph limit is adhered to a number of deaths and many serious injuries will be saved. |
Well no. It has been proved. The Welsh Govts own figures predict a negligible effect on deaths on the road. It's bullsh*t.
This is all about an attempt to restrict private use of vehicles. It's stated Welsh Government policy, spearheaded by a moron who has spent his entire working life trying to achieve that.
It's faintly absurd that anyone is trying to claim otherwise at this point. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 21:34 - Oct 6 with 1086 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:11 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
Well no. It has been proved. The Welsh Govts own figures predict a negligible effect on deaths on the road. It's bullsh*t.
This is all about an attempt to restrict private use of vehicles. It's stated Welsh Government policy, spearheaded by a moron who has spent his entire working life trying to achieve that.
It's faintly absurd that anyone is trying to claim otherwise at this point. |
I just don’t look at saving 10 lives a year and many more serious injuries as being negligible. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:48 - Oct 6 with 1077 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:34 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
I just don’t look at saving 10 lives a year and many more serious injuries as being negligible. |
It doesn't much matter what you consider it as. Ten lives a year compared to the average Welsh annual death rate would barely shift it a fraction of a percentage. Your feelings don't supersede reality I'm afraid. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 22:12 - Oct 6 with 1054 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:48 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
It doesn't much matter what you consider it as. Ten lives a year compared to the average Welsh annual death rate would barely shift it a fraction of a percentage. Your feelings don't supersede reality I'm afraid. |
Every year 20,000 people are diagnosed with cancer in Wales, the waiting times are going badly in the wrong direction.
That is the context where a politician justifies spending £32M on road signs to 'save ten lives a year' when the reality is he's probably cost 100s of lives by spending the money in the wrong place.
Some people seem quite happy to see this happen......
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/we-develop-policy/we-work-with-governm |  |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 22:17 - Oct 6 with 1042 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:12 - Oct 6 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Every year 20,000 people are diagnosed with cancer in Wales, the waiting times are going badly in the wrong direction.
That is the context where a politician justifies spending £32M on road signs to 'save ten lives a year' when the reality is he's probably cost 100s of lives by spending the money in the wrong place.
Some people seem quite happy to see this happen......
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/we-develop-policy/we-work-with-governm |
This is exactly the true position. Drakeford has an agenda to dive car travel out of Wales. Don't dress his measures up as saving lives, this can be done more effectively by investing the funds in other areas. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:18 - Oct 6 with 1034 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:12 - Oct 6 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Every year 20,000 people are diagnosed with cancer in Wales, the waiting times are going badly in the wrong direction.
That is the context where a politician justifies spending £32M on road signs to 'save ten lives a year' when the reality is he's probably cost 100s of lives by spending the money in the wrong place.
Some people seem quite happy to see this happen......
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/we-develop-policy/we-work-with-governm |
Precisely.
It's cynical, and downright evil to try and sell this 20mph nonsense as an attempt to save lives. Sadly altogether too many people have been pursuaded by this idiocy and will argue the toss over it.
It bears repeating. Welsh Govt transport policy has led us to the point where a 50mph limit exists on a stretch of motorway ostensibly to reduce CO2 emissions directly alongside a steel manufacturing facility responsible for 5.8 million tonnes of CO2 emissions per year. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 22:22 - Oct 6 with 1020 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:48 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
It doesn't much matter what you consider it as. Ten lives a year compared to the average Welsh annual death rate would barely shift it a fraction of a percentage. Your feelings don't supersede reality I'm afraid. |
The reality is that many children are killed or seriously injured on our roads through drivers exceeding the speed limit.
Any reduction in those statistics would be a bonus. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:24 - Oct 6 with 1020 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 21:48 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
It doesn't much matter what you consider it as. Ten lives a year compared to the average Welsh annual death rate would barely shift it a fraction of a percentage. Your feelings don't supersede reality I'm afraid. |
Every year 20,000 people are diagnosed with cancer in Wales, the waiting times are going badly in the wrong direction.
That is the context where a politician justifies spending £32M on road signs to 'save ten lives a year' when the reality is he's probably cost 100s of lives by spending the money in the wrong place.
Some people seem quite happy to see this happen......
The reality is public policy decisions are about making the most appropriate decisions about how you spend money. You can save many cancer deaths or a few road deaths that's the kind of choice we trust people to make.
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/we-develop-policy/we-work-with-governm [Post edited 6 Oct 2023 22:28]
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| The 20MPH punishments on 22:34 - Oct 6 with 996 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:22 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
The reality is that many children are killed or seriously injured on our roads through drivers exceeding the speed limit.
Any reduction in those statistics would be a bonus. |
B*llocks.
You've already been provided with evidence that suggests most pedestrian deaths or injuries are a resulf of their own actions as opposed to excess speed by a factor of almost thousands. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 22:34 - Oct 6 with 996 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:22 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
The reality is that many children are killed or seriously injured on our roads through drivers exceeding the speed limit.
Any reduction in those statistics would be a bonus. |
Of the 20,000 cancer cases in Wales each year 8,000 are preventable. Where do you want to spend £32M? | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 23:55 - Oct 6 with 951 views | AnotherJohn |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:34 - Oct 6 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Of the 20,000 cancer cases in Wales each year 8,000 are preventable. Where do you want to spend £32M? |
One could take this argument a step further by mentioning the concepts of the quality-adjusted life year (QALY), the incremental cost-effectiveness ratio (the ICER), and the NICE cost effectiveness threshold. I know that I've already lost about half the readership, but Google "NICE cost- effectiveness threshold". In almost all areas of healthcare we could save more lives if we invested more money. Sadly we don't have enough money to spend more in all these areas, and so the Government (in the form of NICE) fixes a notional amount that we will pay to add a year of good quality life, and then allocates a value to competing treatments to see how many QALYs a given treatment and spend adds or saves. On a cost per life year basis, the 34M spent on the 20mph speed limit to save 10 lives (and the average number of life years remaining for the 10 cases) vastly exceeds the NICE threshold amount per life year (£20K to £30K ) above which we stop buying a drug or procedure. So yes, JMAB is on to something. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 23:59 - Oct 6 with 949 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:34 - Oct 6 by Dr_Winston |
B*llocks.
You've already been provided with evidence that suggests most pedestrian deaths or injuries are a resulf of their own actions as opposed to excess speed by a factor of almost thousands. |
What do you mean B’llocks?
You’ve already been provided with evidence that excess speed kills and a vehicle striking a pedestrian at 30mph is 10 times more likely to kill that person than if it was travelling at 20mph. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 03:57 - Oct 7 with 906 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:22 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
The reality is that many children are killed or seriously injured on our roads through drivers exceeding the speed limit.
Any reduction in those statistics would be a bonus. |
Can you actually provide statistics on road deaths in 30 mph zones even the Welsh government can't
Apparently of the annual 100 Road deaths in Wales 40% are in 30mph zones.
There does not seem to be any breakdown of those figures into pedestrians, cyclist, drivers or passenger let alone a further breakdown of deaths caused bt exceeding the 30mph or drinks and drugs .
If they Welsh government cannot provide this breakdown how can Drakeford measure if his changes are a success let alone claim it will save upto 10 deaths a year.
As an inquest found recently two deaths in an accident in a 30 mph zone were as a result of the driver exceeding 30 mph being high on drugs and alcohol and the passenger not wearing a seat belt none of which would have been prevent by the new 20mph law | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 05:11 - Oct 7 with 901 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 23:55 - Oct 6 by AnotherJohn |
One could take this argument a step further by mentioning the concepts of the quality-adjusted life year (QALY), the incremental cost-effectiveness ratio (the ICER), and the NICE cost effectiveness threshold. I know that I've already lost about half the readership, but Google "NICE cost- effectiveness threshold". In almost all areas of healthcare we could save more lives if we invested more money. Sadly we don't have enough money to spend more in all these areas, and so the Government (in the form of NICE) fixes a notional amount that we will pay to add a year of good quality life, and then allocates a value to competing treatments to see how many QALYs a given treatment and spend adds or saves. On a cost per life year basis, the 34M spent on the 20mph speed limit to save 10 lives (and the average number of life years remaining for the 10 cases) vastly exceeds the NICE threshold amount per life year (£20K to £30K ) above which we stop buying a drug or procedure. So yes, JMAB is on to something. |
Everyday there are public policy decisions made about what provides the best way to spend public money in terms of the overall benefit to the population in terms of health and life years, for example. Difficult but necessary decisions as we don't have the resources for everything.
To try and justify the 20MPH in life terms is hoping that the population is ignorant of better investment options. In Scotland the SNP has been failing on public policy for years, but it takes a scandal for the public to to tune into the problems. In Wales, will we ever see the costs of bad policy? | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 08:02 - Oct 7 with 884 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The 20MPH punishments on 22:22 - Oct 6 by lifelong |
The reality is that many children are killed or seriously injured on our roads through drivers exceeding the speed limit.
Any reduction in those statistics would be a bonus. |
Just how many is many? Do you have a number? Are those children killed because of speeding, bad driving or some stupid action by them or their parents? | | | |
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