| Brexit-second referendum 10:23 - Feb 9 with 11144 views | johnlangy |
I'd forgotten all about this until it was brought up again on Facebook. This is a headlining story from the Daily Mirror from 16th May 2016. I'll cut and paste a few lines.
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EXCLUSIVE: Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'
Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.
The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.
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It's easy to forget these things.
This makes the article in the FT a few days ago about the possibility of a second ref in 2026 a perfectly reasonable one especially when all the polls now show that a large majority of people now believe Brexit was a mistake.
And if that majority which is now around the 58/60% level became say 65% or more over the next few years how can it not be a sensible thing to do. |  | | |  |
| Brexit-second referendum on 07:34 - Feb 10 with 1273 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 06:19 - Feb 10 by Whiterockin |
Its not only the super rich who avoid paying tax. How many self employed on here have never done a job for cash or anyone else paid cash for a job to be done. Its a lot harder now but still goes on. Always look at yourself first. |
Take avoidance is legal and everyone does it. Anyone who claims their annual tax allowance via PAYE is avoiding tax as does anyone who pays into a pension when you are refunded your income tax. Anyone who has an ISA is avoiding tax.
Tax evasion is illegal taking cash in hand is tax evasion. Paying cash in hand to evade VAT is also evasion and illegal.
I do wish people could understand the difference between evasion (illegal) and avoidance (legal). | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 09:15 - Feb 10 with 1236 views | johnlangy |
| Brexit-second referendum on 19:30 - Feb 9 by KeithHaynes |
Great thread from Langy. |
Thank you Keith. And reasonable, sensible postings so far which is what we want. | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 09:19 - Feb 10 with 1235 views | johnlangy |
| Brexit-second referendum on 22:06 - Feb 9 by majorraglan |
We’re 7 years beyond the referendum and 3 years into Brexit, it’s very early days but thus far I’d say the negatives outweigh the positives. We’ve had both the pandemic and the Ukraine situation to contend with and there’s no doubt these have impacted, however all the other E.U. countries have had the same issues to contend with and they seem to be doing better than we are. We’re the only G7 country whose economy is still smaller than it was pre pandemic.
We were told to expect an economic hit post Brexit and I suspect a lot of people would be prepared to accept a small hit as a price to pay, but the economic hit is bigger than many will admit. My take is that 2026 is a good point to review what’s happened and where we are. I’m not saying it should lead to a further referendum but we certainly need an honest review and I certainly don’t think we should be waiting 50 years like some of the Brexiteers have highlighted to see the economic benefits of Brexit - that’s complete BS.
If truth be told I think the handling of the Brexit negotiations has been poor, we’ve recently seen David Davis come out and blame Whitehall etc for the poor dal when politicians were actually leading the discussions - it’s nothing short of deflection for the mess they’ve made of it. Oven ready deal my @@@@! The trade deals we’ve negotiated have been lauded, but of late we’ve seen serious criticism of Truss’s Oz deal and there is a risk we’re being gaslighted.
Brexit is very emotive and people will argue their position is right until they’re blue in the face. I think by 2026 the tide will turn and support to return will increase especially of our economy doesn’t take off and if the numbers are up to 65% -35% then there needs to be a serious discussion about the future - but it has to be an overwhelming majority because we can’t jet keep changing our minds every 10 years. I voted to leave but 7 years on looking at the mess we’re in, the shambolic way things have been managed I genuinely feel I made the wrong call. My kids weren’t old enough to vote in 2016 but they are now and would defo vote to rejoin as would ALL their friends. |
Great post. | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 10:00 - Feb 10 with 1225 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Brexit-second referendum on 22:06 - Feb 9 by majorraglan |
We’re 7 years beyond the referendum and 3 years into Brexit, it’s very early days but thus far I’d say the negatives outweigh the positives. We’ve had both the pandemic and the Ukraine situation to contend with and there’s no doubt these have impacted, however all the other E.U. countries have had the same issues to contend with and they seem to be doing better than we are. We’re the only G7 country whose economy is still smaller than it was pre pandemic.
We were told to expect an economic hit post Brexit and I suspect a lot of people would be prepared to accept a small hit as a price to pay, but the economic hit is bigger than many will admit. My take is that 2026 is a good point to review what’s happened and where we are. I’m not saying it should lead to a further referendum but we certainly need an honest review and I certainly don’t think we should be waiting 50 years like some of the Brexiteers have highlighted to see the economic benefits of Brexit - that’s complete BS.
If truth be told I think the handling of the Brexit negotiations has been poor, we’ve recently seen David Davis come out and blame Whitehall etc for the poor dal when politicians were actually leading the discussions - it’s nothing short of deflection for the mess they’ve made of it. Oven ready deal my @@@@! The trade deals we’ve negotiated have been lauded, but of late we’ve seen serious criticism of Truss’s Oz deal and there is a risk we’re being gaslighted.
Brexit is very emotive and people will argue their position is right until they’re blue in the face. I think by 2026 the tide will turn and support to return will increase especially of our economy doesn’t take off and if the numbers are up to 65% -35% then there needs to be a serious discussion about the future - but it has to be an overwhelming majority because we can’t jet keep changing our minds every 10 years. I voted to leave but 7 years on looking at the mess we’re in, the shambolic way things have been managed I genuinely feel I made the wrong call. My kids weren’t old enough to vote in 2016 but they are now and would defo vote to rejoin as would ALL their friends. |
The only argument for the European Union is a financial one. It’s drummed into us that being a member is better for the economy. It’s probably true for us and the other big hitters like Germany and France but I would bet a lot of money that the good folk of Greece, Italy and other parts of southern Europe would disagree.
By focusing entirely on the economy the remain campaign believed that people would vote with their wallets. They were wrong. I have yet to hear a single coherent argument from a remain supporter that doesn’t reference finance or the economy. Because it’s all the E.U. has to offer:
“Join us and you may have a few percentage points of higher growth. Woopee-doo. Meanwhile here’s a list of directives issued by a motley crew of faceless, unelected and unaccountable people you never heard of, never voted for and can’t remove that probe into every aspect of your lives which your country must comply with or face sanctions. Ignore the bags of cash from Qatar in the corner there, nothing to see here.”
We already have the Senedd and Westminster which are riddled with incompetence, corruption and some of the worst people on the planet. I wouldn’t trust half of them with running a stall at a car boot sale let alone running the country. Why on earth would we want another government on top of that? We need less politicians, not more. And I don’t care how many percentage points of growth it costs. Very little of that will trickle down to us anyway. |  |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 12:17 - Feb 10 with 1210 views | Gwyn737 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 10:00 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The only argument for the European Union is a financial one. It’s drummed into us that being a member is better for the economy. It’s probably true for us and the other big hitters like Germany and France but I would bet a lot of money that the good folk of Greece, Italy and other parts of southern Europe would disagree.
By focusing entirely on the economy the remain campaign believed that people would vote with their wallets. They were wrong. I have yet to hear a single coherent argument from a remain supporter that doesn’t reference finance or the economy. Because it’s all the E.U. has to offer:
“Join us and you may have a few percentage points of higher growth. Woopee-doo. Meanwhile here’s a list of directives issued by a motley crew of faceless, unelected and unaccountable people you never heard of, never voted for and can’t remove that probe into every aspect of your lives which your country must comply with or face sanctions. Ignore the bags of cash from Qatar in the corner there, nothing to see here.”
We already have the Senedd and Westminster which are riddled with incompetence, corruption and some of the worst people on the planet. I wouldn’t trust half of them with running a stall at a car boot sale let alone running the country. Why on earth would we want another government on top of that? We need less politicians, not more. And I don’t care how many percentage points of growth it costs. Very little of that will trickle down to us anyway. |
The economic one is the most compelling argument for the majority, I'd agree. This is why I've said before that I have a sort of admiration for those who voted leave for their principes even though it would make their children and grandchildren poorer.
It's not the only argument though.
You can make a case on the freedom to live, work and retire there, that it made is punch above our wieght on a global scale, security co-operation, scientific co-opentations, food standards, Health and Safety legislation, workers rights to name just a few off the top of my head.
Maybe you're right that remainers were daft to focus on the economy but look what's happened with the Brexit supporters main line on immigration - that hasn't worked out well, has it?
Edit: came across this from yesterday on taking control of our borders.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-english-channel-migrants-s [Post edited 10 Feb 2023 13:27]
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| Brexit-second referendum on 13:49 - Feb 10 with 1191 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Brexit-second referendum on 12:17 - Feb 10 by Gwyn737 |
The economic one is the most compelling argument for the majority, I'd agree. This is why I've said before that I have a sort of admiration for those who voted leave for their principes even though it would make their children and grandchildren poorer.
It's not the only argument though.
You can make a case on the freedom to live, work and retire there, that it made is punch above our wieght on a global scale, security co-operation, scientific co-opentations, food standards, Health and Safety legislation, workers rights to name just a few off the top of my head.
Maybe you're right that remainers were daft to focus on the economy but look what's happened with the Brexit supporters main line on immigration - that hasn't worked out well, has it?
Edit: came across this from yesterday on taking control of our borders.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-english-channel-migrants-s [Post edited 10 Feb 2023 13:27]
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We still have the right to work, live and travel in the EU though. I spent four months living and working in Riga. Could pop on the train and travel around huge parts of Europe with very little checks, had to flash my passport a few times and that was it. No questions asked. Just a very warm welcome. In my experience the supposed barriers that have been thrown up have been grossly over exaggerated for political capital. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of brits are still living, working and traveling around the EU. There’s no basis in reality to any of these claims.
Also on the remain bingo card is the “making your children and grandchildren poorer” statement. What a beautifully crafted, evocative and emotive phrase that is. Specifically designed to pull on your heartstrings. But that’s all it is really. Predicting what the world will be like in 30, 50, 70 years is literally impossible. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 14:08 - Feb 10 with 1185 views | Gwyn737 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 13:49 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
We still have the right to work, live and travel in the EU though. I spent four months living and working in Riga. Could pop on the train and travel around huge parts of Europe with very little checks, had to flash my passport a few times and that was it. No questions asked. Just a very warm welcome. In my experience the supposed barriers that have been thrown up have been grossly over exaggerated for political capital. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of brits are still living, working and traveling around the EU. There’s no basis in reality to any of these claims.
Also on the remain bingo card is the “making your children and grandchildren poorer” statement. What a beautifully crafted, evocative and emotive phrase that is. Specifically designed to pull on your heartstrings. But that’s all it is really. Predicting what the world will be like in 30, 50, 70 years is literally impossible. |
It's not as easy to do those things. Even as basic as being stuck in lines at passport control when going on holiday is a pain. It is an emotive phase, much like 'Take Back Control' and we know how that's tunring out.
The result was coming up to 7 years ago. It's defintely made our children and grandchildren poorer already and there's no real indication this will improve to what was promised.
Even Mogg says 50 years to see any tangible benefits. | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:22 - Feb 10 with 1183 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:08 - Feb 10 by Gwyn737 |
It's not as easy to do those things. Even as basic as being stuck in lines at passport control when going on holiday is a pain. It is an emotive phase, much like 'Take Back Control' and we know how that's tunring out.
The result was coming up to 7 years ago. It's defintely made our children and grandchildren poorer already and there's no real indication this will improve to what was promised.
Even Mogg says 50 years to see any tangible benefits. |
Standing in a queue for a few minutes to go on holiday is a very first world problem. No doubt there’ll be a lot of tutting and shaking of heads.
And that’s not a brexit thing. There’s been queues at airports for as long as I can remember. You think our airports are bad try flying in America. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 14:26 - Feb 10 with 1178 views | Gwyn737 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:22 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Standing in a queue for a few minutes to go on holiday is a very first world problem. No doubt there’ll be a lot of tutting and shaking of heads.
And that’s not a brexit thing. There’s been queues at airports for as long as I can remember. You think our airports are bad try flying in America. |
It is just a small example.
Nothing compares to the economic issues. Or security. Or workers rights. Or health and safety legislation. Or food safety standards etc.
Brexit isn't an area I get wound up about (anymore). The error is clear. It's just a matter of when and how much time, money and effort has been wasted.
If in 10 years time we're all minted I'll gladly say I was wrong and apologise to my Brexit friends. | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 19:16 - Feb 10 with 1130 views | waynekerr55 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 06:19 - Feb 10 by Whiterockin |
Its not only the super rich who avoid paying tax. How many self employed on here have never done a job for cash or anyone else paid cash for a job to be done. Its a lot harder now but still goes on. Always look at yourself first. |
Of course, yes. But this nonsense that migrants and scroungers have a bigger impact on UK plc is wide of the mark. |  |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 19:19 - Feb 10 with 1126 views | waynekerr55 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 07:34 - Feb 10 by felixstowe_jack |
Take avoidance is legal and everyone does it. Anyone who claims their annual tax allowance via PAYE is avoiding tax as does anyone who pays into a pension when you are refunded your income tax. Anyone who has an ISA is avoiding tax.
Tax evasion is illegal taking cash in hand is tax evasion. Paying cash in hand to evade VAT is also evasion and illegal.
I do wish people could understand the difference between evasion (illegal) and avoidance (legal). |
Yes, you're right. However there is a wider discussion around morality and the law that needs it's own thread to do it justice.
This isn't meant as a dig, but the line "people should know the difference" is a but disingenuous and to compare mega corporations internally charging to look as if they've made a loss, or pretending to be 2nd hand car salesmen isn't the same as putting money into a pension or an ISA. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 23:03 - Feb 11 with 1065 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:22 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Standing in a queue for a few minutes to go on holiday is a very first world problem. No doubt there’ll be a lot of tutting and shaking of heads.
And that’s not a brexit thing. There’s been queues at airports for as long as I can remember. You think our airports are bad try flying in America. |
Yes it is a Brexit thing. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Brexit-second referendum on 23:05 - Feb 11 with 1064 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 10:00 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The only argument for the European Union is a financial one. It’s drummed into us that being a member is better for the economy. It’s probably true for us and the other big hitters like Germany and France but I would bet a lot of money that the good folk of Greece, Italy and other parts of southern Europe would disagree.
By focusing entirely on the economy the remain campaign believed that people would vote with their wallets. They were wrong. I have yet to hear a single coherent argument from a remain supporter that doesn’t reference finance or the economy. Because it’s all the E.U. has to offer:
“Join us and you may have a few percentage points of higher growth. Woopee-doo. Meanwhile here’s a list of directives issued by a motley crew of faceless, unelected and unaccountable people you never heard of, never voted for and can’t remove that probe into every aspect of your lives which your country must comply with or face sanctions. Ignore the bags of cash from Qatar in the corner there, nothing to see here.”
We already have the Senedd and Westminster which are riddled with incompetence, corruption and some of the worst people on the planet. I wouldn’t trust half of them with running a stall at a car boot sale let alone running the country. Why on earth would we want another government on top of that? We need less politicians, not more. And I don’t care how many percentage points of growth it costs. Very little of that will trickle down to us anyway. |
No its not.
We will always be Welsh Europeans whatever the hard of thinking vote for.
ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ¤ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡º | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Brexit-second referendum on 23:06 - Feb 11 with 1063 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:26 - Feb 10 by Gwyn737 |
It is just a small example.
Nothing compares to the economic issues. Or security. Or workers rights. Or health and safety legislation. Or food safety standards etc.
Brexit isn't an area I get wound up about (anymore). The error is clear. It's just a matter of when and how much time, money and effort has been wasted.
If in 10 years time we're all minted I'll gladly say I was wrong and apologise to my Brexit friends. |
You will be proven 100% correct.
Without a shadow of a doubt. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Brexit-second referendum on 23:17 - Feb 11 with 1058 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 23:06 - Feb 11 by Kilkennyjack |
You will be proven 100% correct.
Without a shadow of a doubt. |
Democracy in action even if you do not like it.
The EU is undemocratic with none of its commissioners or president ever voted into office by the voters This is an undenial fact.
The UK voters including the Welsh recognised this and voted democratically to leave. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 00:51 - Feb 12 with 1044 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Brexit-second referendum on 23:03 - Feb 11 by Kilkennyjack |
Yes it is a Brexit thing. |
Are you saying there were never queues at the airport before brexit? | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 01:04 - Feb 12 with 1040 views | majorraglan |
An interesting article in today’s Independent regarding a confidential high level meeting relating to the failures of Brexit. The positives we can take from this are that the shortcomings of Brexit are being identified and efforts are being made to improve things, the downside is that it’s taken 3 years for this to happen. Let’s hope “they” can identify the actions we need to take to improve our economic performance - and I don’t mean rejoining.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-meeting-summit-michael-gov | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 07:34 - Feb 12 with 1022 views | Boundy |
| Brexit-second referendum on 14:22 - Feb 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Standing in a queue for a few minutes to go on holiday is a very first world problem. No doubt there’ll be a lot of tutting and shaking of heads.
And that’s not a brexit thing. There’s been queues at airports for as long as I can remember. You think our airports are bad try flying in America. |
I'd have thought that security checks would be just as important whether you were in the EU or not | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 08:44 - Feb 12 with 1000 views | Gwyn737 |
| Brexit-second referendum on 01:04 - Feb 12 by majorraglan |
An interesting article in today’s Independent regarding a confidential high level meeting relating to the failures of Brexit. The positives we can take from this are that the shortcomings of Brexit are being identified and efforts are being made to improve things, the downside is that it’s taken 3 years for this to happen. Let’s hope “they” can identify the actions we need to take to improve our economic performance - and I don’t mean rejoining.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-meeting-summit-michael-gov |
Good article that and I agree with your interpretation of it - including not rejoining.
Perhaps a change of government will help. Fresh slate to look at what closer ties will mean 🤷🻠| | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 09:36 - Feb 12 with 993 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 01:04 - Feb 12 by majorraglan |
An interesting article in today’s Independent regarding a confidential high level meeting relating to the failures of Brexit. The positives we can take from this are that the shortcomings of Brexit are being identified and efforts are being made to improve things, the downside is that it’s taken 3 years for this to happen. Let’s hope “they” can identify the actions we need to take to improve our economic performance - and I don’t mean rejoining.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-meeting-summit-michael-gov |
I think your question as why it has taken 3 years has ab obvious answer. The government has had the global covoid pandemic to deal with, followed by the global supply shortages which led to increased prices for everything, then the global.energy crisis caused by the Russian invasion of Ukrainian. ALL these events have had a far greater effect on the UK economy than a few minor disruptions caused by Brexit and the EU being intransigent. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum on 17:59 - Feb 12 with 952 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 09:36 - Feb 12 by felixstowe_jack |
I think your question as why it has taken 3 years has ab obvious answer. The government has had the global covoid pandemic to deal with, followed by the global supply shortages which led to increased prices for everything, then the global.energy crisis caused by the Russian invasion of Ukrainian. ALL these events have had a far greater effect on the UK economy than a few minor disruptions caused by Brexit and the EU being intransigent. |
The government own figures say Brexit has done twice as much damage as Covid.
That is a fact.
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Brexit-second referendum on 20:03 - Feb 12 with 928 views | majorraglan |
| Brexit-second referendum on 09:36 - Feb 12 by felixstowe_jack |
I think your question as why it has taken 3 years has ab obvious answer. The government has had the global covoid pandemic to deal with, followed by the global supply shortages which led to increased prices for everything, then the global.energy crisis caused by the Russian invasion of Ukrainian. ALL these events have had a far greater effect on the UK economy than a few minor disruptions caused by Brexit and the EU being intransigent. |
I agree with your point about the pandemic, however it’s something that’s hit most of the world. In terms of the other issues, a lot of Central Europe was considerably more reliant on Russian energy and food than we were and they’ve addressed a lot of their problems already. We are the only G7 economy with a smaller economy now than we had at the start of the pandemic.
My personal view is that our government and politicians are responsible for a lot of the mess we’re in and the pain we’re suffering. Central government is a big beast and they should easily be able to manage more than 1 spinning plate at a time. Our Brexit preparations have been slow and below par, for example we’ve still not got the infrastructure in place at our ports to do the same checks on imports that EU are doing on our exports.
We’ve a government that’s under performed and messed up for a long time, if they cant get the routine stuff done how can we expect them to get the big stuff right. | | | |
| Brexit-second referendum on 20:55 - Feb 12 with 894 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 00:51 - Feb 12 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Are you saying there were never queues at the airport before brexit? |
Enjoy.
What a joy Brexit is ……. well maybe it is for super wealthy Mogg …? | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Brexit-second referendum on 09:15 - Feb 13 with 847 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Brexit-second referendum on 20:55 - Feb 12 by Kilkennyjack |
Enjoy.
What a joy Brexit is ……. well maybe it is for super wealthy Mogg …? |
Idiot Geneva is in Switzerland who are not in the. EU.
When I travelled to Tenerife recently they had 3 queues .
One for EU citizens, one for non EU countries and one for UK passport holders. The longest queue was for EU passport holders the shortest was for UK passport holders.
The canaries rely on the huge number of British citizens and makes it easy for them. | |
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| Brexit-second referendum (n/t) on 09:49 - Feb 13 with 836 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Brexit-second referendum on 20:55 - Feb 12 by Kilkennyjack |
Enjoy.
What a joy Brexit is ……. well maybe it is for super wealthy Mogg …? |
Edit: fat fingers [Post edited 13 Feb 2023 9:49]
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