| Italy’s new Prime Minister 20:15 - Sep 26 with 5339 views | Lohengrin |
Step forward Giorgia Meloni…
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 21:54 - Sep 27 with 1030 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 20:16 - Sep 27 by Catullus |
But Lohengin, its a well known left wing fact that all evil people are right wing!
If it's tory its bad, if it's bad it must be tory.
Mussolini must be nearly as right wing as Liz Truss, well in between her and Bojo.
What next, someone will say Hitler was left wing because he was leader of a national Socialist workers party! Maybe not. |
”What next, someone will say Hitler was left wing because he was leader of a national Socialist workers party! Maybe not.”
On that, how much do you know about Hitler? If the answer is not an awful lot there’s a book you need to read that places him very much on the Left in the immediate post-war era; not just in a vaguely ideological sense but elected into the Socialist Bavarian People's’ State and the Communist Bavarian Soviet Republic as a soldiers’ representative.
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 22:49 - Sep 27 with 978 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 21:54 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
”What next, someone will say Hitler was left wing because he was leader of a national Socialist workers party! Maybe not.”
On that, how much do you know about Hitler? If the answer is not an awful lot there’s a book you need to read that places him very much on the Left in the immediate post-war era; not just in a vaguely ideological sense but elected into the Socialist Bavarian People's’ State and the Communist Bavarian Soviet Republic as a soldiers’ representative.
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For someone who abolished trade unions and worker representation and rights, doesn't seem very left wing to me |  | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:08 - Sep 27 with 971 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 22:49 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
For someone who abolished trade unions and worker representation and rights, doesn't seem very left wing to me |
Well he replaced the pre-existing trades unions with the Deutsche Arbeitsfront, the German Labour Front, didn’t he? The arguments for which, though they’d hardly appreciate the comparison, aren’t too dissimilar from the ‘One Big Union’ case advanced by Left groups and sections of the TUC here in the last few decades. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:22 - Sep 27 with 959 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:08 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
Well he replaced the pre-existing trades unions with the Deutsche Arbeitsfront, the German Labour Front, didn’t he? The arguments for which, though they’d hardly appreciate the comparison, aren’t too dissimilar from the ‘One Big Union’ case advanced by Left groups and sections of the TUC here in the last few decades. |
That wasn't a workers trade union though | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:24 - Sep 27 with 957 views | Kilkennyjack |
Makes you think, right ? |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:31 - Sep 27 with 956 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:22 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
That wasn't a workers trade union though |
In what sense?
As you can no doubt tell I’m thoroughly enjoying this. These aren’t conversations that crop up every day. Most people have less than no interest. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:38 - Sep 27 with 953 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:24 - Sep 27 by Kilkennyjack |
Makes you think, right ? |
That’s coming from somebody posting under the name Marx with the by-line ‘Workers of the World Unite.’
Now I may be going out on a limb here, Killy, but I think that Twitter account may be just a tad biased. There, I’ve said it. 😊 | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:49 - Sep 27 with 945 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:31 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
In what sense?
As you can no doubt tell I’m thoroughly enjoying this. These aren’t conversations that crop up every day. Most people have less than no interest. |
It wasn't a trade union run by it's member for their benefit.
Hardly any of his actual policies were left wing.
Private enterprise did well.contrary to.myth, gun control was loosened neot tightened. He was for racial superiority, as we all know. He was for exclusivity not inclusion. Single person rule not collectivism. There are many more instances too | | | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:54 - Sep 27 with 936 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:49 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
It wasn't a trade union run by it's member for their benefit.
Hardly any of his actual policies were left wing.
Private enterprise did well.contrary to.myth, gun control was loosened neot tightened. He was for racial superiority, as we all know. He was for exclusivity not inclusion. Single person rule not collectivism. There are many more instances too |
You can’t possibly contend that National Socialism wasn’t a collectivist creed, surely? Come on now, that’s simply not true.
This isn’t me defending Hitler, you understand that, I’m just trying to look at history with a clear eye, focusing on what actually happened. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 00:04 - Sep 28 with 932 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:54 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
You can’t possibly contend that National Socialism wasn’t a collectivist creed, surely? Come on now, that’s simply not true.
This isn’t me defending Hitler, you understand that, I’m just trying to look at history with a clear eye, focusing on what actually happened. |
No it wasn't. It was competitive and meritocratic - in theory anyway. Single person rule not democratic in any way | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 00:11 - Sep 28 with 931 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 00:04 - Sep 28 by controversial_jack |
No it wasn't. It was competitive and meritocratic - in theory anyway. Single person rule not democratic in any way |
Democratic? Hell, no. They’d have shuddered at the thought, I dare say.
“Competitive and Meritocratic.” I think Hitler would have been delighted you saw it that way, it’s the very essence of Social Darwinism. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 07:19 - Sep 28 with 891 views | Catullus |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 21:54 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
”What next, someone will say Hitler was left wing because he was leader of a national Socialist workers party! Maybe not.”
On that, how much do you know about Hitler? If the answer is not an awful lot there’s a book you need to read that places him very much on the Left in the immediate post-war era; not just in a vaguely ideological sense but elected into the Socialist Bavarian People's’ State and the Communist Bavarian Soviet Republic as a soldiers’ representative.
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There was a debate on here a while back about whether the Nazi's were right or left wing. I don't know as much about Hitler as you obviously do but then, I'm not as well read as you.
My opinion was the Nazi's started off more to the left but many of their later acts have people saying they are right wing. Hence my comment about if it's bad it must be tory! The lefties (the solid, maybe further left lefties) nearly always say the right is evil. We have Trampe saying the Labour party are right wing, Anything to the right of Trampie mind, he calls it right wing.
I'd have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you, Loh. I don't think I've got enough time left to do it! | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 08:21 - Sep 28 with 864 views | KeithHaynes |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 07:19 - Sep 28 by Catullus |
There was a debate on here a while back about whether the Nazi's were right or left wing. I don't know as much about Hitler as you obviously do but then, I'm not as well read as you.
My opinion was the Nazi's started off more to the left but many of their later acts have people saying they are right wing. Hence my comment about if it's bad it must be tory! The lefties (the solid, maybe further left lefties) nearly always say the right is evil. We have Trampe saying the Labour party are right wing, Anything to the right of Trampie mind, he calls it right wing.
I'd have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you, Loh. I don't think I've got enough time left to do it! |
Loh will know the answer to this, and I’ve not researched it. But was there ever a moment in time that Hitler stated his position on either side of the spectrum ? Right or left ? My German isn’t brilliant 😂 It seems the feared regimes in history always ended up being shoved in to the extreme right bracket regardless. But the Russians got away with it, they were hardly better in many aspects.
Hitlers actions in Spain in the thirties would suggest his leanings were obvious with his support for Franco, an interesting focussed debate. |  |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 10:48 - Sep 28 with 837 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 08:21 - Sep 28 by KeithHaynes |
Loh will know the answer to this, and I’ve not researched it. But was there ever a moment in time that Hitler stated his position on either side of the spectrum ? Right or left ? My German isn’t brilliant 😂 It seems the feared regimes in history always ended up being shoved in to the extreme right bracket regardless. But the Russians got away with it, they were hardly better in many aspects.
Hitlers actions in Spain in the thirties would suggest his leanings were obvious with his support for Franco, an interesting focussed debate. |
The Nazi party, was named national socialist, to placate or even attract the communists in Germany at the time. communism was very powerful there at the time and he didn't want to upset them
There was nothing left wing about any of his policies. His main enemy were the Bolsheviks. | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 11:09 - Sep 28 with 833 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 08:21 - Sep 28 by KeithHaynes |
Loh will know the answer to this, and I’ve not researched it. But was there ever a moment in time that Hitler stated his position on either side of the spectrum ? Right or left ? My German isn’t brilliant 😂 It seems the feared regimes in history always ended up being shoved in to the extreme right bracket regardless. But the Russians got away with it, they were hardly better in many aspects.
Hitlers actions in Spain in the thirties would suggest his leanings were obvious with his support for Franco, an interesting focussed debate. |
Hitler would routinely describe himself and his movement as ‘Socialist’ in the ‘20s, he would do it in speech, the Strasser brothers would do it in print. The debate really centres around what he meant by the term? Opportunism? Quite possibly, and he certainly dialled the rhetoric back as the ‘30s drew near and the need to woo serious backers in industry and finance became obvious. The final act in that courtship being The Night of the Long Knives and the brutal crushing of the radical, revolutionary wing of the NSDAP.
Did any of the original radicalism live on? Well it’s interesting you should have mentioned Spain, Keith. The Luftwaffe was far and away the most politicised, best educated arm of the German uniformed services. I was listening to a podcast recently with Paul Preston being one of the contributors where the attitude of members of the Condor Legion was discussed. The Spanish archives apparently contain scores of reports of Legionnaires complaining long and loud in the bars and hotels of Salamanca about having to fight “on the wrong side.” Of defending the Catholic Church and landowners when social revolution was what they’d signed up for.
Those intelligence reports were never meant for public consumption. I take them to be accurate and unvarnished. Quite telling that. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 11:20 - Sep 28 with 830 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 10:48 - Sep 28 by controversial_jack |
The Nazi party, was named national socialist, to placate or even attract the communists in Germany at the time. communism was very powerful there at the time and he didn't want to upset them
There was nothing left wing about any of his policies. His main enemy were the Bolsheviks. |
Partially true but far from the whole truth and it doesn’t explain away Hitler’s verified presence in the walk behind Eisner’s coffin in February 1919 after his assassination by the Freikorps. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 12:22 - Sep 28 with 810 views | felixstowe_jack |
The Italians have elected their new Prime Minister in an election that is democracy. The last four Italians Prime Ministers were not elected but appointed by the EU after backroom deals orchestrated from Brussels.
Don't expect their EU masters to respect it. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 13:03 - Sep 28 with 790 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 11:20 - Sep 28 by Lohengrin |
Partially true but far from the whole truth and it doesn’t explain away Hitler’s verified presence in the walk behind Eisner’s coffin in February 1919 after his assassination by the Freikorps. |
It's all true. You have to understand, and i'm sure you do, that Hitler was an opportunist and a mass manipulator. Nothing is every straightforward, but i will stick by what i said, that none of his policies as Chancellor were in anyway socialistic | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 13:17 - Sep 28 with 784 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 13:03 - Sep 28 by controversial_jack |
It's all true. You have to understand, and i'm sure you do, that Hitler was an opportunist and a mass manipulator. Nothing is every straightforward, but i will stick by what i said, that none of his policies as Chancellor were in anyway socialistic |
Opportunist? Certainly. Mass manipulator? Most definitely. You could also have added that he was personally unstable and Goebbels especially was deeply calculating and cynical. All of that is true.
BUT, and it’s a huge but, to say as you do that “none of his policies as Chancellor were in any way Socialistic” is demonstrably untrue.
Here’s yet another book to back up my arguments. If anybody reading this has had their interest piqued don’t go spending money you haven’t got, every source I cite on here is available through your local library.
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 13:58 - Sep 28 with 753 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 23:38 - Sep 27 by Lohengrin |
That’s coming from somebody posting under the name Marx with the by-line ‘Workers of the World Unite.’
Now I may be going out on a limb here, Killy, but I think that Twitter account may be just a tad biased. There, I’ve said it. 😊 |
Great detective skills. You are Hetty Wainthropp and I claim my five pounds. |  |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:11 - Sep 28 with 742 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 13:17 - Sep 28 by Lohengrin |
Opportunist? Certainly. Mass manipulator? Most definitely. You could also have added that he was personally unstable and Goebbels especially was deeply calculating and cynical. All of that is true.
BUT, and it’s a huge but, to say as you do that “none of his policies as Chancellor were in any way Socialistic” is demonstrably untrue.
Here’s yet another book to back up my arguments. If anybody reading this has had their interest piqued don’t go spending money you haven’t got, every source I cite on here is available through your local library.
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Let's look at some of Hitlers beliefs then shall we?
Nationalism over Internationalism
Racism over racial tolerance
Favouring Eugenics
merit or favouritism over equality
competition over cooperation
one person rule over democracy
Capitalism over Marxism
The list goes on | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:39 - Sep 28 with 735 views | Lohengrin |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:11 - Sep 28 by controversial_jack |
Let's look at some of Hitlers beliefs then shall we?
Nationalism over Internationalism
Racism over racial tolerance
Favouring Eugenics
merit or favouritism over equality
competition over cooperation
one person rule over democracy
Capitalism over Marxism
The list goes on |
Those charges could equally be applied to The Soviet, and most of them would stick.
Eugenics? That baton was taken up across the spectrum in the early twentieth century. Marx himself was a particularly outspoken advocate.
“Capitalism over Marxism?” The German system was centred on State direction of Capital, quite different from that which operated, often disastrously, across the Anglosphere in the ‘30s. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:42 - Sep 28 with 731 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 07:19 - Sep 28 by Catullus |
There was a debate on here a while back about whether the Nazi's were right or left wing. I don't know as much about Hitler as you obviously do but then, I'm not as well read as you.
My opinion was the Nazi's started off more to the left but many of their later acts have people saying they are right wing. Hence my comment about if it's bad it must be tory! The lefties (the solid, maybe further left lefties) nearly always say the right is evil. We have Trampe saying the Labour party are right wing, Anything to the right of Trampie mind, he calls it right wing.
I'd have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you, Loh. I don't think I've got enough time left to do it! |
The Nazi party was a product of the times Cat, almost inevitably so and left/right ideology didn’t really come into it at the beginning at least. You had a proud nation absolutely crippled by the biggest war the world had ever seen. The treaty that ended it all was deliberately designed as a shackle, a humiliation to emasculate Germany for generations. The Weimar Republic was weak, impotent and seen as subservient to international finance and other countries whilst the German people starved. Their money so worthless it was burnt for warmth.
Their main goal was the overturning of the Versailles treaty and restoration of Germany as a power.
It’s easy to ask with perfect hindsight from the safety of 2022 how could anyone support the Nazis but I imagine at the time when you’re out of work, cold and hungry they would have appealed to people from all across the political spectrum and adjusted their policies to maximise their appeal. | |
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| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:46 - Sep 28 with 727 views | controversial_jack |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:39 - Sep 28 by Lohengrin |
Those charges could equally be applied to The Soviet, and most of them would stick.
Eugenics? That baton was taken up across the spectrum in the early twentieth century. Marx himself was a particularly outspoken advocate.
“Capitalism over Marxism?” The German system was centred on State direction of Capital, quite different from that which operated, often disastrously, across the Anglosphere in the ‘30s. |
Capitalism was rampant under the NAZIs, big corps did extremely well out of govt contracts and the like.The Govt did not have control of industry. Yes, they set targets for war production like most other nations did, but that's not the same as control. Germany never actually went on a total economy war footing either, unlike the UK
I'm not saying eugenics was a Nazi invention, but they certainly exploited it | | | |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:46 - Sep 28 with 727 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Italy’s new Prime Minister on 14:11 - Sep 28 by controversial_jack |
Let's look at some of Hitlers beliefs then shall we?
Nationalism over Internationalism
Racism over racial tolerance
Favouring Eugenics
merit or favouritism over equality
competition over cooperation
one person rule over democracy
Capitalism over Marxism
The list goes on |
You could apply a number of those to your chum Vladimir. | |
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