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In the discussion on veganism a couple of weeks ago, I brought about the discussion point that needlessly killing an animal for sensory pleasure of the tongue, is no different to hurting an animal for other sensory pleasures of the brain.
This has now been brought back into the spotlight by the ever impressive Ed Winters. Zouma was clearly enjoying hurting that animal and getting pleasure out of it… yet people are up in arms.
Hurting animals for some kind of sensory pleasure is something that many people condemning this act partake in daily.
Strange ethical dilemma.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
People eat to survive, to live. Nobody should take pleasure in causing animals unnecessary pain and suffering. That's why abattoirs have strict rules they should follow.
Here's another question, is eating a vegan diet really such an unpleasant experience or do you enjoy what you eat?
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 11:02 - Feb 12 by Catullus
People eat to survive, to live. Nobody should take pleasure in causing animals unnecessary pain and suffering. That's why abattoirs have strict rules they should follow.
Here's another question, is eating a vegan diet really such an unpleasant experience or do you enjoy what you eat?
Which people eat animals to survive?
People in remote locations who have no access to alternatives, or are you talking about people like me and you?
You don’t eat animals to survive, you live in Britain. You eat animals because it brings you pleasure to, it has nothing to do with survival.
It’s a bit like saying you wear fur to survive. You don’t have to, people do it because they like it.
So the question is why is your enjoyment ok as an excuse to slaughter animals in their trillions (strict rules still means slitting a sentient beings throat and hung upside down to bleed to death)… but Zoumas enjoyment isn’t ok to physically dominate his cat?
I’m struggling to see the difference. Hurting animals for pleasure is what is happening in both instances. Right?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 11:08 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Which people eat animals to survive?
People in remote locations who have no access to alternatives, or are you talking about people like me and you?
You don’t eat animals to survive, you live in Britain. You eat animals because it brings you pleasure to, it has nothing to do with survival.
It’s a bit like saying you wear fur to survive. You don’t have to, people do it because they like it.
So the question is why is your enjoyment ok as an excuse to slaughter animals in their trillions (strict rules still means slitting a sentient beings throat and hung upside down to bleed to death)… but Zoumas enjoyment isn’t ok to physically dominate his cat?
I’m struggling to see the difference. Hurting animals for pleasure is what is happening in both instances. Right?
Oh blah, blah, blah, you can say something as often as you like and it won't make it true.
I don't wear fur, unless it's the fake stuff anyway. I don't even have leather shoes.
I'm flexitarian, I eat less meat these days as part of a healthy diet. It's not to do with enjoying animals being caused suffering as they are supposed to be slaughtered as humanely as possible, without suffering.
It is absolutely nothing like causing an animal pain and suffering for your own enjoyment and it's perverse to suggest so.
Let’s say instead he was filmed getting a knife and slitting his cats throat and hanging it by its tail to bleed to death as it struggles in pain. Then threw it on the BBQ and ate it.
Would that be better then slapping the cat and throwing a shoe at him?
People would think he was insane… yet they pay for that to happen every day to other beings.
It’s an uncomfortable contradiction for many, but an accurate contradiction none the less.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 11:22 - Feb 12 by Catullus
Oh blah, blah, blah, you can say something as often as you like and it won't make it true.
I don't wear fur, unless it's the fake stuff anyway. I don't even have leather shoes.
I'm flexitarian, I eat less meat these days as part of a healthy diet. It's not to do with enjoying animals being caused suffering as they are supposed to be slaughtered as humanely as possible, without suffering.
It is absolutely nothing like causing an animal pain and suffering for your own enjoyment and it's perverse to suggest so.
The end.
Which part to you think is not true?
If you don’t have leather shoes or fur then that’s great. But the point is you could buy both and use the excuse “I do it to survive”. But the reality is you do it because you like it and it has nothing to do with survival.
There is no humane way to kill something that doesn’t want to die. Humane means to show compassion, how can you compassionately slit a healthy animals throat and hang it upside down to bleed to death against its will?
Slitting a cows throat because you enjoy the taste of their bodies or kicking an animal because you enjoy the feeling is no different. Both inflicting harm on animals. Both utterly needless.
You may not like it, but it’s simply a fact. An ugly and sobering fact - but still a fact.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 11:28 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Which part to you think is not true?
If you don’t have leather shoes or fur then that’s great. But the point is you could buy both and use the excuse “I do it to survive”. But the reality is you do it because you like it and it has nothing to do with survival.
There is no humane way to kill something that doesn’t want to die. Humane means to show compassion, how can you compassionately slit a healthy animals throat and hang it upside down to bleed to death against its will?
Slitting a cows throat because you enjoy the taste of their bodies or kicking an animal because you enjoy the feeling is no different. Both inflicting harm on animals. Both utterly needless.
You may not like it, but it’s simply a fact. An ugly and sobering fact - but still a fact.
Except the cow will be essentially dead through a captive bolt or electrical stunning to the brain unless traditional slaughter including Halal and Kosher. Brutal -yes, but at least be accurate
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 13:15 - Feb 12 with 4520 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 13:08 - Feb 12 by Professor
Except the cow will be essentially dead through a captive bolt or electrical stunning to the brain unless traditional slaughter including Halal and Kosher. Brutal -yes, but at least be accurate
Which bit are you disputing exactly?
Didn’t you just confirm what I just said?
Your point seems to be that in some cases (nowhere near close to all) they are electrically stunned first, it doesn’t kill them, which isn’t always effective and some with a stun gun (nearly 15% failure rate) in rendering unconsciousness and can clearly make the death of the animal far worse in those instances - if that’s even possible. The failure rate in males and calves being the highest.
Pigs for example are often gassed to death as they burn from the inside, their screams can be heard from a fair distance and people have moved homes because of it. It’s incredibly distressing to hear an intelligent animal in such pain (more intelligent than a dog and rated as the 5th most intelligent on the planet).
None of that makes slitting an animals throat humane though, which happens to every single cow on the killing floor. So not sure exactly what you think is inaccurate about what I just said? Because it’s perfectly accurate.
Let’s say Kurt Zouma instead electrocuted his cat first, then slit its throat and hung it upside down to bleed to death before chucking it on the BBQ - you reckon that would have gone down better with the public?
Would that have been a humane way to treat it you reckon? Or do you think people would say he is an animal torturing psycho and call for his jailing?… while they gnaw on the bodies of an animal they have paid for someone to put them through that exact same ordeal of course.
Like it or not there is a huge hypocrisy there that people intentionally shield themselves from. But everyone knows deep down it’s not right regardless of how they convince themselves or justify it in their own minds.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 13:57]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 11:08 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Which people eat animals to survive?
People in remote locations who have no access to alternatives, or are you talking about people like me and you?
You don’t eat animals to survive, you live in Britain. You eat animals because it brings you pleasure to, it has nothing to do with survival.
It’s a bit like saying you wear fur to survive. You don’t have to, people do it because they like it.
So the question is why is your enjoyment ok as an excuse to slaughter animals in their trillions (strict rules still means slitting a sentient beings throat and hung upside down to bleed to death)… but Zoumas enjoyment isn’t ok to physically dominate his cat?
I’m struggling to see the difference. Hurting animals for pleasure is what is happening in both instances. Right?
Well to sum up and bring another of your attention seeking threads to a close, people who eat and enjoy meat, are no different to Zouma and his like, astounding opinion and completely and utterly nonsensical.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:03 - Feb 12 by max936
Well to sum up and bring another of your attention seeking threads to a close, people who eat and enjoy meat, are no different to Zouma and his like, astounding opinion and completely and utterly nonsensical.
It was such a silly comparison Max, not worth responding really.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:07 - Feb 12 with 4464 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:03 - Feb 12 by max936
Well to sum up and bring another of your attention seeking threads to a close, people who eat and enjoy meat, are no different to Zouma and his like, astounding opinion and completely and utterly nonsensical.
How is it attention seeking? It’s a discussion about animal cruelty.
It’s extraordinarily fascinating how defensive and hostile people become when they are presented with the fact that they are harming animals unnecessarily, simply for pleasure.
The difference between Zouma and those that enjoy eating the bodies of animals - is simply down to Zouma doing the dirty work himself for his pleasure (probably gets an endorphins kick from power and dominance) where as the others pay others to do the dirty work for them to get their taste pleasure.
Both are doing it for pleasure, both can survive (ney thrive) perfectly well without doing so.
Like it or not (I assume from your post you don’t), it’s simply a fact.
Happy for you to tell me how it isn’t.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
We’re hunter gatherers. Other people hunt. I gather.
Yum yum.
We are whatever we want to make ourselves within reason.
We are as much hunter gatherers as we are cave dwellers, we choose not to live in caves though because there are better alternatives now we have evolved. The same goes for our morality, food and ethics over the centuries.
We no longer need to inflict harm on animals. Some genuinely need to in order to survive due to their harsh environments. Most of the rest of us are lucky enough to not have to.
If we do then we choose to simply out of pleasure. Which is the same reason Zouma hurt his cat, it gave him some pleasure or satisfaction.
No different.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Ok let’s look at it from another point of view. Say for example there are ten million cows living in Britain right now (No idea of the actual amount, it could be a lot more). Some are dairy cows, some are raised for beef etc. But they are happy living cows, cowing about doing all sorts of cow stuff being all cowy and shaking their udders with their milkshake bringing all the bulls to the yard. Ok death comes for them in the end as it comes for all of us. But at least they’ve had the gift of life in the first place. And up until that final day they’re generally treated quite well, they get lots of lovely tasty grass, if they feel ill a vet will come to give them medicine. Life’s a peach!
But if veganism was made law tomorrow there would be no need for these ten million cows or their potential millions or even billions of descendants. So you would be depriving all those billions of little cows the chance to live in the first place. Picture the empty field. There’s no mooing on the wind. That sound isn’t here anymore because all the vegans in their cruelty deprived these billions upon billions of living, breathing cows the gift of life.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:51 - Feb 12 with 4423 views
Ok let’s look at it from another point of view. Say for example there are ten million cows living in Britain right now (No idea of the actual amount, it could be a lot more). Some are dairy cows, some are raised for beef etc. But they are happy living cows, cowing about doing all sorts of cow stuff being all cowy and shaking their udders with their milkshake bringing all the bulls to the yard. Ok death comes for them in the end as it comes for all of us. But at least they’ve had the gift of life in the first place. And up until that final day they’re generally treated quite well, they get lots of lovely tasty grass, if they feel ill a vet will come to give them medicine. Life’s a peach!
But if veganism was made law tomorrow there would be no need for these ten million cows or their potential millions or even billions of descendants. So you would be depriving all those billions of little cows the chance to live in the first place. Picture the empty field. There’s no mooing on the wind. That sound isn’t here anymore because all the vegans in their cruelty deprived these billions upon billions of living, breathing cows the gift of life.
That’s not what happens though sadly and of course killing something needlessly that doesn’t want to die is still inhumane by it’s very nature.
The dairy industry for example forcibly impregnates a cow to continually be pregnant, they only produce milk when they are bearing young, they are mammals. When they give birth the calf is either dragged away from her immediately to continue the cycle (if the calf is a female), if it’s a male it’s shot there and then. The mother immediately goes into a state of mourning.
The cow is then forced onto a milking machine so often they can have visible wounds (mastitis), so much so that there is a threshold in dairy of how much blood and pus is permissible in it. In the US the FDA allows 750 million pus cells in every litre of milk. In Europe, regulators allow 400 million pus cells per litre.
That horrific cycle is then repeated and repeated and repeated. When that cow literally cannot be used anymore, often they collapse and machinery used to move them, it’s sent to the same place the others are and killed. It’s horrific.
And of course completely needless.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 15:02]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:51 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
That’s not what happens though sadly and of course killing something needlessly that doesn’t want to die is still inhumane by it’s very nature.
The dairy industry for example forcibly impregnates a cow to continually be pregnant, they only produce milk when they are bearing young, they are mammals. When they give birth the calf is either dragged away from her immediately to continue the cycle (if the calf is a female), if it’s a male it’s shot there and then. The mother immediately goes into a state of mourning.
The cow is then forced onto a milking machine so often they can have visible wounds (mastitis), so much so that there is a threshold in dairy of how much blood and pus is permissible in it. In the US the FDA allows 750 million pus cells in every litre of milk. In Europe, regulators allow 400 million pus cells per litre.
That horrific cycle is then repeated and repeated and repeated. When that cow literally cannot be used anymore, often they collapse and machinery used to move them, it’s sent to the same place the others are and killed. It’s horrific.
And of course completely needless.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 15:02]
So what happens to all the animals if veganism becomes law? Are they allowed to run free and wild like the wind?
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 14:58 - Feb 12 with 4418 views
So what happens to all the animals if veganism becomes law? Are they allowed to run free and wild like the wind?
It wouldn’t become law.
The meat industry is essentially supply and demand. As demand goes down less animals get bred into existence, until ideally there would be no more demand left and no more animals artificially bred.
It would never be a case of releasing animals into the wild, sadly those that are born now are done so to meet a demand that is already there, their fate is already sealed.
So when I use chemicals, plough and cultivate my fields to grow oats, barley or wheat, how many mice/rats/voles/ worms/frogs/toads am I allowed to cut in half or how many foxes/rabbits/badgers dens am I allowed to destroy before I should stop to consider the destruction that I'm doing in producing food for a vegan society.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:19 - Feb 12 with 4378 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 13:18 - Feb 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Which bit are you disputing exactly?
Didn’t you just confirm what I just said?
Your point seems to be that in some cases (nowhere near close to all) they are electrically stunned first, it doesn’t kill them, which isn’t always effective and some with a stun gun (nearly 15% failure rate) in rendering unconsciousness and can clearly make the death of the animal far worse in those instances - if that’s even possible. The failure rate in males and calves being the highest.
Pigs for example are often gassed to death as they burn from the inside, their screams can be heard from a fair distance and people have moved homes because of it. It’s incredibly distressing to hear an intelligent animal in such pain (more intelligent than a dog and rated as the 5th most intelligent on the planet).
None of that makes slitting an animals throat humane though, which happens to every single cow on the killing floor. So not sure exactly what you think is inaccurate about what I just said? Because it’s perfectly accurate.
Let’s say Kurt Zouma instead electrocuted his cat first, then slit its throat and hung it upside down to bleed to death before chucking it on the BBQ - you reckon that would have gone down better with the public?
Would that have been a humane way to treat it you reckon? Or do you think people would say he is an animal torturing psycho and call for his jailing?… while they gnaw on the bodies of an animal they have paid for someone to put them through that exact same ordeal of course.
Like it or not there is a huge hypocrisy there that people intentionally shield themselves from. But everyone knows deep down it’s not right regardless of how they convince themselves or justify it in their own minds.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 13:57]
I’m not being a hypocrite. As I have said I am prepared to kill an animal for food. Just you are being over emotive and suggesting the process is different to suit a flawed argument
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:25 - Feb 12 with 4374 views
Ok let’s look at it from another point of view. Say for example there are ten million cows living in Britain right now (No idea of the actual amount, it could be a lot more). Some are dairy cows, some are raised for beef etc. But they are happy living cows, cowing about doing all sorts of cow stuff being all cowy and shaking their udders with their milkshake bringing all the bulls to the yard. Ok death comes for them in the end as it comes for all of us. But at least they’ve had the gift of life in the first place. And up until that final day they’re generally treated quite well, they get lots of lovely tasty grass, if they feel ill a vet will come to give them medicine. Life’s a peach!
But if veganism was made law tomorrow there would be no need for these ten million cows or their potential millions or even billions of descendants. So you would be depriving all those billions of little cows the chance to live in the first place. Picture the empty field. There’s no mooing on the wind. That sound isn’t here anymore because all the vegans in their cruelty deprived these billions upon billions of living, breathing cows the gift of life.
10 million is a pretty good guess. It’s around that. Around 33 million sheep, 5 million pigs and 180 million chickens as a snapshot.
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Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:25 - Feb 12 with 4374 views
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:19 - Feb 12 by Professor
I’m not being a hypocrite. As I have said I am prepared to kill an animal for food. Just you are being over emotive and suggesting the process is different to suit a flawed argument
That’s not where your hypocrisy lies though. I’ve never suggested you wouldn’t kill an animal yourself.
The hypocrisy lies when someone allows cruelty to animals for their own pleasure but then condemns another persons actions of cruelty to animals for their own pleasure.
Maybe you aren’t a hypocrite there either, I’m not necessarily talking about you, I’m talking about society in general. Maybe you don’t find hurting animals for pleasure wrong, I don’t really know you.
But society in general would tend to find needless animal harm abhorrent, that’s where the hypocrisy comes in.
I’m not being over emotional at all. I’m speaking from a matter of fact point of view, not an emotional one, it’s not flawed either it’s perfectly sound and stands up to any weight of scrutiny.
I’ve invited it, but yet to see any.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:16 - Feb 12 by MrFarmer
So when I use chemicals, plough and cultivate my fields to grow oats, barley or wheat, how many mice/rats/voles/ worms/frogs/toads am I allowed to cut in half or how many foxes/rabbits/badgers dens am I allowed to destroy before I should stop to consider the destruction that I'm doing in producing food for a vegan society.
The difference there is intention. You don’t intend to kill those things.
For example if you were driving down the road and you accidentally hit a dog, that would be a lot different morally speaking if you intentionally swerved into the pavement to hit it.
And of course, two thirds of crop production for domestic markets (certainly here in Australia for example) are consumed as animal feed. Total animal feed from grains per year is about 9 million tonnes, which is equivalent to about 1 kg per person per day.
So cutting out animal rearing would still lessen the need to grow the majority of crops that are currently grown. Crop production would go down, not up.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2022 15:35]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Veganism and Zouma ethical issue on 15:25 - Feb 12 by Professor
10 million is a pretty good guess. It’s around that. Around 33 million sheep, 5 million pigs and 180 million chickens as a snapshot.
All bred to fulfil a demand that is already there.
Veganism would be a gradual process where the supply goes down due to lessening demand, there would be no animals being released into the wild. Just less born into existence. Doesn’t actually matter what the number is currently.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
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