| England Tonight 10:43 - Jun 6 with 22202 views | DubaiR |
I see Kane expected to start again. What’s the point, he is fit, played the first game. Not wonder Vardy retired, surely tonight give DCL a start, if Kane was to get injured it would weaken our chances significantly.
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| England Tonight on 15:50 - Jun 10 with 1969 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 15:31 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
Because people are paying their money to be there, and have a right to boo this show of solidarity if they so wish. I went to Germany away with England a few years ago and our National anthem was booed. So what. I didn't then just assume everyone in the ground booing was a fcking nazi.
Maybe they don't agree with the organisation they're showing their solidarity with. I dunno. I cant be arsed anymore. |
not sure the two are the same, booing a national anthem doesn't make you a Nazi, booing footballers making a stand against racism is gonna be seen as racist.
As you say though when Germany booed our anthem so what, I'm not sure why the same attitude can't be taken to players taking the knee, if you don't like it just ignore it
No one is saying you have to agree with the players or join in. The players have said countless times they are not showing solidarity with an organisation either |  | | |
| England Tonight on 15:51 - Jun 10 with 1958 views | RBlock |
| England Tonight on 15:25 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
If millionaire footballers kneeling in front of working-class kids in Middlesbrough to make a point about structural racism looks like a path to a more fair and equal society to you, then I do wonder. Working-class white kids in Middlesbrough have shit job prospects too. They're not the problem.
Public figures get abused on social media. Not so much random people. Social media abuse does sometimes stray into racism, but fundamentally it comes from people who don't lead particularly happy lives, taking their anger out on those who (apparently, according to their twitter feed and achievements) do. I do think public figures have a responsibility to protect themselves from the dark stuff that comes with web anonymity because you can never actually stop it. Someone will always find a way to remain anonymous online. If we start to prosecute people, it will be at the cost of innocent people being prosecuted for things they've not done.
Blaming all this other stuff on systemic and institutional racism is lazy and far too simple an answer. Categorising all non white people together under the term "BAME" is not really helpful either, that's a huge umbrella. The demographics of the country have changed dramatically over the last 20 years, so to expect all of these institutions, like the courts, to respond overnight is unrealistic.
You're saying people shouldn't get uppity about being called a racist, but then you get uppity about Martin Tyler using certain complimentary adjectives to describe black players? Have you recorded, transcribed, and reported on this to be sure?
I wish people could get their heads around the generational aspect of this. All of this equality will come in time. And it won't be because it was forced by quotas, it will happen naturally, and it should be allowed to. |
Again, you've demonstrated a misunderstanding of the issues. When raising issues with racial injustice in this country, one does not seek to denigrate the struggles and injustices of other sections of society. Absolutely there are working-class white kids in Middlesbrough who suffer from poor job prospects due to inequality. Nobody is denying that. People are however seeking to highlight the racial disparity when discussing these issues, for instance in the criminal justice system - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/15/bame-offenders-most-likely-to-be
It's not 'lazy' to raise these issues and attribute these clear disparities to institutionalised racism. It's simply the truth, despite your wilful ignorance.
Also it's an absolute crock of shyte that people should be expected to guard themselves against racist abuse on the internet. That is victim blaming, pure and simple. There is a way out of this, and that is to link every social media account to verifiable ID, so that @billybob12376 can be identified and charged when he sends a black footballer monkey emojis. Explain to me how that will lead to innocent people being prosecuted for crims they have not committed?
I do agree the term 'BAME' is clumsy and potentially unhelpful, but it is the term we are working with at the moment.
I used Martin Tyler as an example, given he is a prominent commentator. This obviously does not refer to him specifically, but here's the actual evidence - https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer. And you talk about the words being complimentary? They aren't. They're pigeon-holing players and failing to acknowledge their actual skillsets or talents, just like when Souness described Eze as fast and powerful, likening him to Yaya Toure. Absolute nonsense. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 15:52 - Jun 10 with 1928 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 15:50 - Jun 10 by daveB |
not sure the two are the same, booing a national anthem doesn't make you a Nazi, booing footballers making a stand against racism is gonna be seen as racist.
As you say though when Germany booed our anthem so what, I'm not sure why the same attitude can't be taken to players taking the knee, if you don't like it just ignore it
No one is saying you have to agree with the players or join in. The players have said countless times they are not showing solidarity with an organisation either |
So why insist on choosing the gesture associated with the organisation as the way to show solidarity? |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 15:56 - Jun 10 with 1928 views | kensalriser |
Who were the people booing at Middlesbrough? My guess is that they mostly weren't working class kids with no job prospects, they were middle aged blokes with jobs and enough disposable income to attend England games. |  |
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| England Tonight on 16:05 - Jun 10 with 1902 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 15:52 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
So why insist on choosing the gesture associated with the organisation as the way to show solidarity? |
the actual gesture was done by that American Footballer player for several years before the whole BLM thing started but really it doesn't matter how they choose to express it either through kneeling, standing on one leg, wearing a t shirt or whatever, it shouldn't be booed [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 16:06]
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| England Tonight on 16:06 - Jun 10 with 1874 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 15:51 - Jun 10 by RBlock |
Again, you've demonstrated a misunderstanding of the issues. When raising issues with racial injustice in this country, one does not seek to denigrate the struggles and injustices of other sections of society. Absolutely there are working-class white kids in Middlesbrough who suffer from poor job prospects due to inequality. Nobody is denying that. People are however seeking to highlight the racial disparity when discussing these issues, for instance in the criminal justice system - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/15/bame-offenders-most-likely-to-be
It's not 'lazy' to raise these issues and attribute these clear disparities to institutionalised racism. It's simply the truth, despite your wilful ignorance.
Also it's an absolute crock of shyte that people should be expected to guard themselves against racist abuse on the internet. That is victim blaming, pure and simple. There is a way out of this, and that is to link every social media account to verifiable ID, so that @billybob12376 can be identified and charged when he sends a black footballer monkey emojis. Explain to me how that will lead to innocent people being prosecuted for crims they have not committed?
I do agree the term 'BAME' is clumsy and potentially unhelpful, but it is the term we are working with at the moment.
I used Martin Tyler as an example, given he is a prominent commentator. This obviously does not refer to him specifically, but here's the actual evidence - https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer. And you talk about the words being complimentary? They aren't. They're pigeon-holing players and failing to acknowledge their actual skillsets or talents, just like when Souness described Eze as fast and powerful, likening him to Yaya Toure. Absolute nonsense. |
I believe you are wilfully misunderstanding the issues, but there you go
It is lazy. These are multi-faceted issues. To blame it all on a racism aspect is to ignore all the others.
So we make a social media law in the UK. Big woop. How do we stop someone in Oman from sending a load of monkey emojis? We can't. Have you never heard of identity theft? How much of our gdp should be spent on policing mean tweets? How far should these investigations go? Haven't we got more pressing issues at hand?
I think calling Martin Tyler out for being clumsy with language is fair enough, saying he's racist over that is over the top.
Saying he's pigeon holing footballers with his commentary is ridiculous though. As if everyone is listening to the commentator and not watching the game themselves. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 16:07 - Jun 10 with 1885 views | MrSheen |
| England Tonight on 15:56 - Jun 10 by kensalriser |
Who were the people booing at Middlesbrough? My guess is that they mostly weren't working class kids with no job prospects, they were middle aged blokes with jobs and enough disposable income to attend England games. |
Adult tickets £25-35, kids £10. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 16:08 - Jun 10 with 1884 views | Phildo |
| England Tonight on 15:37 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
Most people who go to Millwall for that stuff are from places like Maidstone and Crawley. Not Bermondsey. But a good point. Those people don't do that stuff on the streets though, do they? Only when surrounded by their mates and weirdly understanding stewards at Millwall [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 15:39]
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Well maybe they do it when they are reading a job application, or allocating some sort of resource at work. Maybe - as you imply - they are a bit cowardly about it and it is a bit sly.
What so you think we/they should do? They are getting pelted on social media about it- how should they respond? Our club tries to do constructive things and has decided (presumably) the gesture is in danger of absolving the need for real change. But at international level what do you think club England should be doing- not trying to have a go genuinely interested. |  | | |
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| England Tonight on 16:09 - Jun 10 with 1852 views | BucksRanger |
| England Tonight on 16:05 - Jun 10 by daveB |
the actual gesture was done by that American Footballer player for several years before the whole BLM thing started but really it doesn't matter how they choose to express it either through kneeling, standing on one leg, wearing a t shirt or whatever, it shouldn't be booed [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 16:06]
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Even less point in doing it then. Suggest they try standing up straight, feet apart, hands clasped behind their backs, heads bowed. At least that way they will look dignified. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 16:17 - Jun 10 with 1832 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Please note the ‘Ethnic Minority Britons’ part.
[Post edited 10 Jun 2021 16:19]
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| England Tonight on 16:39 - Jun 10 with 1772 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 16:08 - Jun 10 by Phildo |
Well maybe they do it when they are reading a job application, or allocating some sort of resource at work. Maybe - as you imply - they are a bit cowardly about it and it is a bit sly.
What so you think we/they should do? They are getting pelted on social media about it- how should they respond? Our club tries to do constructive things and has decided (presumably) the gesture is in danger of absolving the need for real change. But at international level what do you think club England should be doing- not trying to have a go genuinely interested. |
I mean the job applications at my place have the name and demographic info redacted on the application. Candidates can also request an equality and diversity representative in the interview but rarely do. But to be fair I don't believe that the people I work with would discriminate on this basis in the first place. It's quite a niche job and you either know what you're talking about or you don't. Most bosses I've met, if someone walks in and knows their stuff, they get the job. The rest is irrelevant.
What should the England team do? About social media abuse? Avoid it. Stop going looking for it, which some of them definitely do. I'm sure this can be represented as victim blaming, but in this case the victims are multi millionaires who love what they do and the perpetrators are people who can only dream of doing what footballers do. That alone changes the dynamics imo | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 16:42 - Jun 10 with 1764 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 16:17 - Jun 10 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Please note the ‘Ethnic Minority Britons’ part.
[Post edited 10 Jun 2021 16:19]
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That's a surprise considering the history of racism in Italian and Spanish football | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 17:31 - Jun 10 with 1708 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 16:09 - Jun 10 by BucksRanger |
Even less point in doing it then. Suggest they try standing up straight, feet apart, hands clasped behind their backs, heads bowed. At least that way they will look dignified. |
does it really matter what they do, would them doing as you suggest for the same reasons offer a different response from the crowd. It's all a bit daft really. | | | |
| England Tonight on 17:48 - Jun 10 with 1692 views | wood_hoop |
| England Tonight on 16:42 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
That's a surprise considering the history of racism in Italian and Spanish football |
My wife from Galicia in NW Spain, where Fidel Catsro family originally from, I have been many times over 35 years and it has changed quite a bit, when first going they had to send to Madrid for black actors to take part in 6th January parade, no black people resident or who wanted to take part in the town she was from,
Now can see many more Black and Asian people, the maority of black people are from South American backgrounds so probably find it easier to fit in as no language problems and a few good curry houses to be found now as well, also taken down Franco statue that used to be dominant in the main Square of her town.
Still a few very right wing Francophiles but I think certain parts of Spain are a lot better than they used to be. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 17:53 - Jun 10 with 1669 views | BucksRanger |
| England Tonight on 17:31 - Jun 10 by daveB |
does it really matter what they do, would them doing as you suggest for the same reasons offer a different response from the crowd. It's all a bit daft really. |
I believe that it would. It would change from a perceived political act to an act of respect. The vast majority of the crowd would see that and the booing would stop. Maybe not completely but significantly.
Change the perception of a thing and you change the reality of it. | | | |
| England Tonight on 18:02 - Jun 10 with 1643 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 17:53 - Jun 10 by BucksRanger |
I believe that it would. It would change from a perceived political act to an act of respect. The vast majority of the crowd would see that and the booing would stop. Maybe not completely but significantly.
Change the perception of a thing and you change the reality of it. |
I agree, in fact, I think it would go away completely. I'd not heard of anyone being against anti-racism campaigns in football until it appeared in this particular form. It's currently toxic and the sooner we move on to something else, the better. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 21:17 - Jun 10 with 1477 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 17:53 - Jun 10 by BucksRanger |
I believe that it would. It would change from a perceived political act to an act of respect. The vast majority of the crowd would see that and the booing would stop. Maybe not completely but significantly.
Change the perception of a thing and you change the reality of it. |
does seem a bit ridiculous that you want players to be told how to make their feelings known.
Everyone must now have heard why the players are taking a knee so those who boo or video themselves at home booing it and then upload to social media it are imo absolutely idiotic, if you don't agree or are in any way offended by taking the knee just close your eyes and ignore it for the 10 seconds it lasts | | | |
| England Tonight on 22:03 - Jun 10 with 1402 views | BucksRanger |
| England Tonight on 21:17 - Jun 10 by daveB |
does seem a bit ridiculous that you want players to be told how to make their feelings known.
Everyone must now have heard why the players are taking a knee so those who boo or video themselves at home booing it and then upload to social media it are imo absolutely idiotic, if you don't agree or are in any way offended by taking the knee just close your eyes and ignore it for the 10 seconds it lasts |
I don't want footballers being told how to protest, I want somebody to suggest alternative forms of protest that might defuse the current situation. Let the players choose the outcome they want. Carry on with the current form of protest and nothing changes. The booing will continue and probably worsen over time. Modify the current form of protest and there will be a change in the way the protest is perceived. Perception is everything and I can almost guarantee that behaviour of the fans will alter and for the better.
Closing your eyes doesn't alter the perception of the act but it will further escalate the current situation. Closing your eyes to a poor situation is not a solution, it's a copout.
I agree with you about social media. It is full of idiots and best avoided. The same can pretty much be said of main stream media. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 22:05]
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| England Tonight on 22:14 - Jun 10 with 1383 views | gazza1 |
If England players want to 'take the knee' then sobeit, if England supporters want to 'boo' then sobeit........I could not give a shite.
I am looking forward to the competition though and think we have a chance, if the Manager gets his act in order. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 22:34 - Jun 10 with 1362 views | Myke |
It will be interesting to see what dominates the conversation throughout the tournament; politics... or actual football | | | |
| England Tonight on 22:59 - Jun 10 with 1328 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 22:03 - Jun 10 by BucksRanger |
I don't want footballers being told how to protest, I want somebody to suggest alternative forms of protest that might defuse the current situation. Let the players choose the outcome they want. Carry on with the current form of protest and nothing changes. The booing will continue and probably worsen over time. Modify the current form of protest and there will be a change in the way the protest is perceived. Perception is everything and I can almost guarantee that behaviour of the fans will alter and for the better.
Closing your eyes doesn't alter the perception of the act but it will further escalate the current situation. Closing your eyes to a poor situation is not a solution, it's a copout.
I agree with you about social media. It is full of idiots and best avoided. The same can pretty much be said of main stream media. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 22:05]
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the mainstream media thing always annoys me, it's a clever trump ploy to try and get his voters to only consume the media that supported him, Farage is using it as well now as if there is some form of underground media that will tell you the real truth. Sorry bit of a random aside there.
I just think the whole thing is ridiculous, players being told if you do a different gesture for the same cause we won't boo you. Why can't those booing try and a different kind of protest, rather than booing the players you've paid to come and support. Try banners showing their reasoning, turn your backs, there are loads of options but the answer is always no why should we why don't you do something different,
I've waited so long to go back to football, I can't imagine the first thing i will do upon my return is to boo my own team | | | |
| England Tonight on 23:29 - Jun 10 with 1287 views | BucksRanger |
| England Tonight on 22:59 - Jun 10 by daveB |
the mainstream media thing always annoys me, it's a clever trump ploy to try and get his voters to only consume the media that supported him, Farage is using it as well now as if there is some form of underground media that will tell you the real truth. Sorry bit of a random aside there.
I just think the whole thing is ridiculous, players being told if you do a different gesture for the same cause we won't boo you. Why can't those booing try and a different kind of protest, rather than booing the players you've paid to come and support. Try banners showing their reasoning, turn your backs, there are loads of options but the answer is always no why should we why don't you do something different,
I've waited so long to go back to football, I can't imagine the first thing i will do upon my return is to boo my own team |
I agree, the whole thing is ridiculous but lines have been drawn by the England squad and the England fans. Nothing will change until one of the sides change. Fans are loosely connected and, therefore, unlikely to get together in big enough numbers to discuss a different way of protesting. The England squad are a tight knit team and can more easily talk about alternative ways of approaching this standoff with the fans. If they want the booing to stop, they need to try a different approach, hence my earlier suggestion on this board. Probably won't happen though, will it? People rarely seem to seek out moderation these days.
I doubt banners would work. They would be confiscated before they got into the stadium. | | | |
| England Tonight on 01:15 - Jun 11 with 1242 views | Hunterhoop |
This thread astonishes me, it really does.
Each to their own. Booing a footballer for a peaceful action (that takes all of 20 seconds) is absolutely nonsensical to me. Understand if you don’t agree with the gesture but booing? What purpose does it serve? Makes you feel good? Strange, if you ask me. No footballers are Marxist FFS. They’re a prime example of capitalists. They’re not lecturing anyone. The action is quite literally silent. Don’t like it? Ignore it…like many things in life, you don’t like. I don’t walk into a Wetherspoons and boo because the owner is a pillock. I just ignore them. Booing your own team though? For a silent action? FFS. Grow up. It’s those booing who are making this a political issue. Get over yourselves. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 03:50 - Jun 11 with 1208 views | Match82 |
| England Tonight on 15:52 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
So why insist on choosing the gesture associated with the organisation as the way to show solidarity? |
The gesture was originally intended by Colin Kaepernick to draw attention to racial inequality.
The gesture and the movement might well have been co-opted by BLM but the players are using it to represent the same thing Kaepernick did. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 06:43 - Jun 11 with 1170 views | LimehouseR |
| England Tonight on 03:50 - Jun 11 by Match82 |
The gesture was originally intended by Colin Kaepernick to draw attention to racial inequality.
The gesture and the movement might well have been co-opted by BLM but the players are using it to represent the same thing Kaepernick did. |
To be fair, it was Martin Luther King who originally took a knee in 1965.
It is a gesture that still needs to be used to highlight inequalities some 55 years later. I find that a bit sad, really.
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