| Erected in Bristol this morning 13:55 - Jul 15 with 22226 views | Drizzy |
This will upset a few.
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 15:58 - Jul 16 with 2379 views | Glossolalia |
I was in Bristol yesterday and today . Saw a crowd and then realised that statue was there. Didn't see any trouble and it was removed. In fact, I found Bristol nice overall with many smiles. People seem relieved that a semblance of normality is back.
As the mayor said, it would be nice for a vote to decide what statue is erected there. It would have been better for the Colston statue to have been removed through a vote too, but I guess emotions got very high. |  | | |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 20:24 - Jul 16 with 2299 views | Groo |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 15:23 - Jul 16 by Drizzy |
"It was a different time and people were brought up to different moralities than today."
You gave an example from the Old Testament which showed enslaving and subjugating people based on their ethnicity was wrong. Amongst the 99% of Britons who didn't own plantations, or companies that traded in slaves, I'm sure the majority would have recognised the practice as deeply immoral.
"When England took over the monopoly from Portugal, which was spoils of war, the Portuguese had already transported more than 4 million slaves."
Not sure what this was supposed to mean but we never had a monopoly on the slave trade nor did we take it from Portugal. If you're saying that Portugal had already transported 4 million slaves before the RAC Royal Charter in 1672, your numbers are wildly inaccurate. 80% of all slaves were transported after 1700, Portugal accounted for about 4.6m slaves in total. The numbers don't add up.
"Slaves were seen as animals and treated as such (even branded), trading slaves was like trading goats. As awful as it is today, then it was accepted as such."
It wasn't actually accepted by the slaves themselves nor all the rulers in Africa. There were slave revolts all over the Americas throughout history, some of them successful like Haitian revolution but most were not. The Queen of Ndongo (modern Angola) sparked a century-long resistance against the Portugese through the 17th century. The kingdoms of Benin and Dahomey banned the trade in the early 18th century and attacked European controlled ports. It was only accepted by the profiteers but there was resistance to it all around the world. One of the most influential figures in the Haitian revolution was a man born in Bengal, India. |
First of all, I'm not saying slavery was good for anyone or right. It was wrong, it was always wrong.
From your replies to the following.
"It was a different time and people were brought up to different moralities than today."
We are talking end of the 17th Century, the earlier periods to this you had serfdom, which in itself was a form of slavery, ending in UK around the 13th C but maintained across Europe especially Russia until the 19th C.
The normal working class people were still subservant to the upper classes. This was before the industrial revolution and most people land workers. the upper classes were privalaged and saw themselves above the rest, so when talking about the morality of the people regarding the slave trade your really talking about the upper ruling classes and their peers who couldn't give two figs for the working classes let alone African slaves.
So he was acting as he had been brought up, the same as those around him.
"When England took over the monopoly from Portugal, which was spoils of war, the Portuguese had already transported more than 4 million slaves."
Your correct with your answer on the monopoly, I was thinking the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 after the War of Spanish Succession where Britain took over the slave routes to the Spanish colonies.
Portugal started their slave trading in the 15th C, the Pope even gave them permission to run the slave trade from Africa. Portugal explored the sea route around Africa to get to india and started returning slaves very early. They then colonised Brazil and sent multiple 1000's annually to Brazil as well as taking slaves back to Portugal and other Portuguese insterests around the world. So yes, they run up massive numbers before Britain even started.
"Slaves were seen as animals and treated as such (even branded), trading slaves was like trading goats. As awful as it is today, then it was accepted as such."
Of course the victims disagreed. Haiti was a revolt against their colonial masters, France, so not just the British.
Slavery is and always was deplorable, but it was accepted as normal then by Europeans. The main resistance to slavery didn't start until almost 100 years later. |  |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 18:48 - Jul 17 with 2205 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 20:24 - Jul 16 by Groo |
First of all, I'm not saying slavery was good for anyone or right. It was wrong, it was always wrong.
From your replies to the following.
"It was a different time and people were brought up to different moralities than today."
We are talking end of the 17th Century, the earlier periods to this you had serfdom, which in itself was a form of slavery, ending in UK around the 13th C but maintained across Europe especially Russia until the 19th C.
The normal working class people were still subservant to the upper classes. This was before the industrial revolution and most people land workers. the upper classes were privalaged and saw themselves above the rest, so when talking about the morality of the people regarding the slave trade your really talking about the upper ruling classes and their peers who couldn't give two figs for the working classes let alone African slaves.
So he was acting as he had been brought up, the same as those around him.
"When England took over the monopoly from Portugal, which was spoils of war, the Portuguese had already transported more than 4 million slaves."
Your correct with your answer on the monopoly, I was thinking the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 after the War of Spanish Succession where Britain took over the slave routes to the Spanish colonies.
Portugal started their slave trading in the 15th C, the Pope even gave them permission to run the slave trade from Africa. Portugal explored the sea route around Africa to get to india and started returning slaves very early. They then colonised Brazil and sent multiple 1000's annually to Brazil as well as taking slaves back to Portugal and other Portuguese insterests around the world. So yes, they run up massive numbers before Britain even started.
"Slaves were seen as animals and treated as such (even branded), trading slaves was like trading goats. As awful as it is today, then it was accepted as such."
Of course the victims disagreed. Haiti was a revolt against their colonial masters, France, so not just the British.
Slavery is and always was deplorable, but it was accepted as normal then by Europeans. The main resistance to slavery didn't start until almost 100 years later. |
It was also accepted as normal by arab states for over 1200 years and throughout Africa by the people of Africa.
It just seem only white Europeans are blamed when all races and colours took part. |  |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:03 - Jul 17 with 2178 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 18:48 - Jul 17 by felixstowe_jack |
It was also accepted as normal by arab states for over 1200 years and throughout Africa by the people of Africa.
It just seem only white Europeans are blamed when all races and colours took part. |
Do you think we should tear down mosques? | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:36 - Jul 17 with 2159 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 15:49 - Jul 16 by Drizzy |
I'm sure lots of people would be quite happy to "move on" from the past atrocities so long as they didn't experience racism today. The problem is it's still prevalent, arguably getting worse in recent years. Unless you think the study of history is futile, these past atrocities are still relevant to what people experience today.
I've never doubted that horrific genocide ethnic cleansing has occurred, and is still occurring, all around the world outside of the UK. Although telling a black person they can't feel oppressed because there are other races being ethnically cleansed is somewhat callous.
I take issue with the idea that Britain's tolerance and acceptance is some kind of fixed property, intrinsic to the country. It's not. We're only about 70 years removed from our own acts of genocide (Mau Mau revolt, Bengal famine) and about 40 years removed from horrific acts of police brutality towards certain races and widespread hostility to immigrants. It's not ancient history.
Turning the tide against racism has taken decades of campaigning for rights, education and empathy from those who haven't experienced. So much good work has been done in the last 20-30 years but sadly the problem still exists in much more insidious forms. The fact that so many Brits remain hostile to the presentation of historical fact shows why these conversations about the past are essential.
To put this into context, we're around 180 years from the end of slavery. 100 years from now, we'll be 180 years from the end of WW2. Do you think we should stop Remembrance Sunday after 100 years? |
So what is an acceptable outcome for you in all this? I ask because I don’t see an ending which satisfies even blm supporters let alone those who oppose these recent actions.
Arguing over history is fine but what do blm supporters want? Don’t say sweeping statements like ‘end to racism and slavery’ I mean real targets,goals, tangible achievements. All I hear is noise but no meaningful aims. Same goes for climate activists. Say what you want. If you demand removal of all statues of slavers the say and we can all discuss reasonably.
Oh and if you come back with ‘have you been living under a rock?’ Maybe think this... is my message clear and concise enough for all to understand? Instead of shouting irrelevant cr@p like ‘educate yourself’ look at the way the message is portrayed.
Here Endeth the lesson |  |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:22 - Jul 17 with 2132 views | Garyjack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:03 - Jul 17 by Drizzy |
Do you think we should tear down mosques? |
Do you? Taking into account of course that Mohammad is described in the Koran as being white, and referred to his black slaves as 'raisin heads'. The hypocrisy you have displayed in these threads is becoming increasingly embarrassing for you, And as Vincent states above, what exactly do you want from this? Do you actually know? Because if you don't, cut the crap and stop blowing hot air, because quite frankly that's all you've reduced yourself to, as is evident in your last post. |  | | |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:27 - Jul 17 with 2120 views | 1462jack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:22 - Jul 17 by Garyjack |
Do you? Taking into account of course that Mohammad is described in the Koran as being white, and referred to his black slaves as 'raisin heads'. The hypocrisy you have displayed in these threads is becoming increasingly embarrassing for you, And as Vincent states above, what exactly do you want from this? Do you actually know? Because if you don't, cut the crap and stop blowing hot air, because quite frankly that's all you've reduced yourself to, as is evident in your last post. |
Fair play , can’t wait to see what bile he spews out next |  | | |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 23:08 - Jul 17 with 2087 views | Kerouac |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:48 - Jul 15 by Drizzy |
Do you think that Jen Reid should be deported back to Africa now that she's committed a crime? |
Will you renounce the prophet Mohammed for owning slaves? |  |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 08:00 - Jul 18 with 2013 views | Highjack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:36 - Jul 17 by Vincent_Vega |
So what is an acceptable outcome for you in all this? I ask because I don’t see an ending which satisfies even blm supporters let alone those who oppose these recent actions.
Arguing over history is fine but what do blm supporters want? Don’t say sweeping statements like ‘end to racism and slavery’ I mean real targets,goals, tangible achievements. All I hear is noise but no meaningful aims. Same goes for climate activists. Say what you want. If you demand removal of all statues of slavers the say and we can all discuss reasonably.
Oh and if you come back with ‘have you been living under a rock?’ Maybe think this... is my message clear and concise enough for all to understand? Instead of shouting irrelevant cr@p like ‘educate yourself’ look at the way the message is portrayed.
Here Endeth the lesson |
Once the election is over BLM will bugger off for another four years like they did in 2016.  |  |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 08:44 - Jul 18 with 2003 views | Glossolalia |
I think most know the type of people to potentially tear down mosques: those foolish enough to cherry-pick a 'relevant' historical misdemeanor, strip it of context, add lashings of anachronistic morality, and willfully ignore other historical equivalents.
In itself, the act of tearing something down is exactly what I and many others deplore: it's reactionary, compulsive and usually ill-informed. Who's actually upset about the BLM statue? I had a little chuckle as I walked past, watching all the selfie-takers flock around like seagulls on a bag of chips. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 8:46]
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 09:43 - Jul 18 with 1975 views | epaul |
Too many white apologists in this thread, the gammon in them has taken..........
Get over yourselfs blood
#BLM |  |
| The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 10:34 - Jul 18 with 1954 views | Highjack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 08:44 - Jul 18 by Glossolalia |
I think most know the type of people to potentially tear down mosques: those foolish enough to cherry-pick a 'relevant' historical misdemeanor, strip it of context, add lashings of anachronistic morality, and willfully ignore other historical equivalents.
In itself, the act of tearing something down is exactly what I and many others deplore: it's reactionary, compulsive and usually ill-informed. Who's actually upset about the BLM statue? I had a little chuckle as I walked past, watching all the selfie-takers flock around like seagulls on a bag of chips. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 8:46]
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It’s indicative of how absolutely bonkers these people’s arguments are with all this hypocrisy and massive double standards. I mentioned Gandhi earlier, he was undoubtedly a racist. But the Labour Party leapt to his defence because he was anti colonial and progressive. If they were applying the same rules across the board Gandhi should be whitewashed (No pun intended) too. Now Gandhi is an absolute giant of history and should stay and be celebrated despite his faults, just like Churchill or Washington, or Jefferson, or Muhammad or Cromwell and all the others. The fact that they all have faults and had both achievements and failures, did good and did bad things is a huge part of being human that we all share on various scales. There’s probably not a single historical figure that could be judged as “100% good”.
It’s not just black and white. (That one was intended.) | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 13:18 - Jul 18 with 1920 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 08:00 - Jul 18 by Highjack |
Once the election is over BLM will bugger off for another four years like they did in 2016. |
Yep and their actions will ensure Trump gets a second term. The idiots.
(Unless BLM is a trump creation, that would be very twisty) | |
| Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!! |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 16:19 - Jul 18 with 1862 views | Glossolalia |
Highjack- excellent post. It relieves me to read that. Regarding the white apologist nonsense - realise that many here are steadfast in their treatment of historical figures. This could be a cultural dressing-down of a darker-skinned religious figure, such as Mohammed, or Gengkis Khan, the master of lording over others.
The point is, it's simply coincidental that we're white, and that the person in discussion happens to be white. I'd equally defend any figure being contextually and cultural exhumed for the sake of scoring cheap points. Get a damn grip. | | | |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:48 - Jul 18 with 1802 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:22 - Jul 17 by Garyjack |
Do you? Taking into account of course that Mohammad is described in the Koran as being white, and referred to his black slaves as 'raisin heads'. The hypocrisy you have displayed in these threads is becoming increasingly embarrassing for you, And as Vincent states above, what exactly do you want from this? Do you actually know? Because if you don't, cut the crap and stop blowing hot air, because quite frankly that's all you've reduced yourself to, as is evident in your last post. |
Nope.
I'm aware that the dominant theology at a time when atrocities were committed isn't responsible for said atrocities. I was responding to Felixstowe asking what should we do about mosques, given that Mohammed owned slaves. It's no more useful than asking what should we do about churches built in the 17th century.
What exactly do I want?
Racism to end. The symbols of people who profited from some of the most horrific racism in history to be torn down. Widespread education on the realities of our colonial past and the historical foundation of racism.
80,000 annual race hate crimes (and rising) in England & Wales. Half of all prisoners are young black men, a significant portion of these are non-violent drug offenders. Increasingly venomous anti-immigrant rhetoric on the front page of popular newspapers. Racism is still rife in Britain whether you choose to believe it or not. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:55 - Jul 18 with 1794 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:36 - Jul 17 by Vincent_Vega |
So what is an acceptable outcome for you in all this? I ask because I don’t see an ending which satisfies even blm supporters let alone those who oppose these recent actions.
Arguing over history is fine but what do blm supporters want? Don’t say sweeping statements like ‘end to racism and slavery’ I mean real targets,goals, tangible achievements. All I hear is noise but no meaningful aims. Same goes for climate activists. Say what you want. If you demand removal of all statues of slavers the say and we can all discuss reasonably.
Oh and if you come back with ‘have you been living under a rock?’ Maybe think this... is my message clear and concise enough for all to understand? Instead of shouting irrelevant cr@p like ‘educate yourself’ look at the way the message is portrayed.
Here Endeth the lesson |
Hiya, Vince. Don't think I've spoken to you directly before. I'll keep my list of quite reasonable demands nice and simple for you. Here's what I'd like:
1. Stop imprisoning young black men at an absurdly high rate for non-violent drug offences.
2. Stop police brutality, particularly as it disproportionately affects black people as the incident in North London shows.
3. Don't bring back stop & search to tackle knife crime, it's a failed strategy.
4. Stop expelling black kids at 3x the rate of others for the same misbehaviour.
5. The number of race hate crimes to start going down from 80,000 rather than increasing as it has done over the last few years.
6. Provide a "warts and all" education about Britain's colonial past which is the foundation of structural racism that we see today.
I'll happily go into detail about any of these aims if you'd like to know. I'm keen to know if you disagree with any of them?
P.S. BLM isn't gifting Trump a 2nd term. He's getting destroyed by the looks of the polls. Excellent. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 21:56]
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:24 - Jul 18 with 1777 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 10:34 - Jul 18 by Highjack |
It’s indicative of how absolutely bonkers these people’s arguments are with all this hypocrisy and massive double standards. I mentioned Gandhi earlier, he was undoubtedly a racist. But the Labour Party leapt to his defence because he was anti colonial and progressive. If they were applying the same rules across the board Gandhi should be whitewashed (No pun intended) too. Now Gandhi is an absolute giant of history and should stay and be celebrated despite his faults, just like Churchill or Washington, or Jefferson, or Muhammad or Cromwell and all the others. The fact that they all have faults and had both achievements and failures, did good and did bad things is a huge part of being human that we all share on various scales. There’s probably not a single historical figure that could be judged as “100% good”.
It’s not just black and white. (That one was intended.) |
I would hardly say calling the Gandhi statue campaign a "distraction" is leaping to his defence. I don't agree with the Labour party on this issue and they don't speak for me. I don't think there should be a statue enshrining Gandhi in the UK, not because he was a racist, but his distorted legacy paints a very false picture of the Indian resistance.
[There’s probably not a single historical figure that could be judged as “100% good”. ]
Probably not. That's not the point, though. It's problematic to frame history around the personalities of certain figures, especially when those figures are deeply flawed. We shouldn't enshrine figures like Gandhi and teach children about Indian independence by making them watch 2 hours of Ben Kingsley in a cloth. Uncomfortable as it is, acts of violent resistant like the Indian Mutiny and the exhaustion from WW2 made a far greater contribution to Indian independence than Gandhi's hunger strikes. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:27 - Jul 18 with 1776 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 08:44 - Jul 18 by Glossolalia |
I think most know the type of people to potentially tear down mosques: those foolish enough to cherry-pick a 'relevant' historical misdemeanor, strip it of context, add lashings of anachronistic morality, and willfully ignore other historical equivalents.
In itself, the act of tearing something down is exactly what I and many others deplore: it's reactionary, compulsive and usually ill-informed. Who's actually upset about the BLM statue? I had a little chuckle as I walked past, watching all the selfie-takers flock around like seagulls on a bag of chips. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 8:46]
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You do have a way with words, Gloss. I tend to think of profiteering from the enslavement of thousands as more than a misdemeanour. I think you need to check the meaning of anachronistic too, Gloss. It doesn't mean what you think it means. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:29 - Jul 18 with 1775 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 23:08 - Jul 17 by Kerouac |
Will you renounce the prophet Mohammed for owning slaves? |
I can't renounce something I never nounced, Kerouac. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 23:12 - Jul 18 with 1759 views | Drizzy |
Seeing as Gandhi was mentioned on a thread about statues, here's what's left of a statue of racist colonialist, Lord Cornwallis. It was destroyed after Indian independence. It follows a trend of hundreds, possibly thousands, of colonial statues destroyed or removed after independence.
There is undoubtedly a mandate for symbols of oppressive murders to have their glory removed, especially by those who suffered directly or indirectly from the oppression.
It's not a political or even religious issue. The people of Georgia had the same mandate when they destroyed the Joseph Stalin statue. The people of Iraq had the same mandate when they tore down the Saddam Hussein.
When you compare to Colston to these previous examples there's one glaring difference. Why wasn't it done two hundred years ago, say with the abolition of slavery? This question reveals a very uncomfortable truth about Britain's past and present that so many on this thread choose not to believe. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 23:32 - Jul 18 with 1754 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:55 - Jul 18 by Drizzy |
Hiya, Vince. Don't think I've spoken to you directly before. I'll keep my list of quite reasonable demands nice and simple for you. Here's what I'd like:
1. Stop imprisoning young black men at an absurdly high rate for non-violent drug offences.
2. Stop police brutality, particularly as it disproportionately affects black people as the incident in North London shows.
3. Don't bring back stop & search to tackle knife crime, it's a failed strategy.
4. Stop expelling black kids at 3x the rate of others for the same misbehaviour.
5. The number of race hate crimes to start going down from 80,000 rather than increasing as it has done over the last few years.
6. Provide a "warts and all" education about Britain's colonial past which is the foundation of structural racism that we see today.
I'll happily go into detail about any of these aims if you'd like to know. I'm keen to know if you disagree with any of them?
P.S. BLM isn't gifting Trump a 2nd term. He's getting destroyed by the looks of the polls. Excellent. [Post edited 18 Jul 2020 21:56]
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Hello Drizzy,
No we haven’t and I’m happy to talk to anyone about anything. Nothings off the table in my book.
Right ok that’s your aims and that’s fine, let’s go through them
1. Ok what’s the stats on this? What’s the figures? Are other races not getting arrested for the same offences? Are white people not getting jailed for these offences? Is it a percentage thing? I’m sure the background of all peoples play more of a cause of these crimes rather than just their skin colour. Thing is with percentages is the uk is predominantly filled with white people so that must play a part. Also can the BLM marches Achieve parity in its current strategy?
2. I don’t liv in London I don’t see it first hand but from hearing from ex met police and locals the problem is that certain gangs and African groups are incredibly dangerous and don’t give two phucks about killing police officers. This raises the stakes massively and yes police brutality is wrong but the context must be understood. I’m seeing daily videos of police brutality on Twitter but they contain no back story and only last a minute or 2. Many of these videos are taken out of context completely and purposefully put the officers in the worst possible light. Most police these days have bodycams so I. Sure that’ll show the true incident.
3. Ok that’s an opinion what would you propose instead?
4. I presume cases of expulsion are taken case by case and there must be a reason for expelling a child from school. Keen to know what evidence there is of genuine prejudice against black children in this area
5. Hate crime is a relatively new crime so cases will be high, society will catch up. I do believe some of this is outdated views but I do think as well the divisive nature of modern Britain does not help and social media is the petrol that fuels this. BLMs actions in this area is not helping just as much as Britain firsts actions in this area. I. Other words they’re both as bad as each other.
6. Mm interesting. While I agree the way history is taught in schools is a little dated, many people don’t even know their own countries history regardless of the colonial past. Take wales. Most Welsh men and women would have no clue about Hwyl Dda for Example so expecting to shoehorn black history into the curriculum is going to be a stretch. What do you drop to include these lessons? Do you extend the school day? As mentioned in other posts do you include the Islamic slave trade? Ghandis views? How long will these lessons be if you include Everything!?
On the face of it I don’t disagree with disproportionately penalising black people,who would? It weakens a functioning society by Actively excluding Members for no reason bar from they look different.
Well it helped him get his first term and again it’ll rally the middle/working class American against BLM and it’s closest party the democrats. Think about it,if you run a shop or own a business and work your ass off to build that business only to have BLM supporters ruin them in rioting and then democrat mayors telling you to stay closed and go out of business but BLM rioters can do whatever they want what would you think? What if you’re on the breadline or lost your job during the pandemic and you turn on the news and see the riots taking place destroying your town and place of work what would you think when you got a family to feed? You’ll turn people against the cause that They probably agreed with you normally. It’s counterproductive. | |
| Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!! |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 00:08 - Jul 19 with 1744 views | Glossolalia |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 22:27 - Jul 18 by Drizzy |
You do have a way with words, Gloss. I tend to think of profiteering from the enslavement of thousands as more than a misdemeanour. I think you need to check the meaning of anachronistic too, Gloss. It doesn't mean what you think it means. |
It's interesting, because contemporaneous thought on subjects we now see as appalling may not have even registered a flicker of disgust in most. It depends what angle we approach the treatment of historical figures and cultural norms from. Such is the way humanity progresses, I presume that in 200 years' time, some of our accepted cultural practices will be frowned upon, perhaps utterly repudiated. But I do hope that our future selves won't shame us for doing what we believe to be permissible. All the same, I take your point: slavery is abominable.
Regarding my use of historical anachronism, I disagree. There are chronological inconsistencies in the transplanting of modern-day morals, customs and attitudes into the past. The pith of many arguments rely on an unnatural chastisement of past figures, based on morals and teachings they simply predate.
To lazily quote Wikipedia - 'In historical writing, the most common type of anachronism is the adoption of the political, social or cultural concerns and assumptions of one era to interpret or evaluate the events and actions of another'.
Simply change 'In historical writing' to 'With many social justice turnips', et voila: c'est parfait.
I will ask - would you find it acceptable for these torn-down statues to be placed in museums? We certainly agree on the education bit. But I do wonder if the lessons we should learn will be somewhat diluted, if we insist on the destruction of all physical testaments to our often ugly past? [Post edited 19 Jul 2020 0:17]
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 10:12 - Jul 19 with 1661 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 21:48 - Jul 18 by Drizzy |
Nope.
I'm aware that the dominant theology at a time when atrocities were committed isn't responsible for said atrocities. I was responding to Felixstowe asking what should we do about mosques, given that Mohammed owned slaves. It's no more useful than asking what should we do about churches built in the 17th century.
What exactly do I want?
Racism to end. The symbols of people who profited from some of the most horrific racism in history to be torn down. Widespread education on the realities of our colonial past and the historical foundation of racism.
80,000 annual race hate crimes (and rising) in England & Wales. Half of all prisoners are young black men, a significant portion of these are non-violent drug offenders. Increasingly venomous anti-immigrant rhetoric on the front page of popular newspapers. Racism is still rife in Britain whether you choose to believe it or not. |
We should not tear down anything. HIstory is history and we should not judge any historical figure by today's standards.
Giving in to mob rule is not the way forward. | |
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| Erected in Bristol this morning on 13:01 - Jul 19 with 1626 views | Drizzy |
| Erected in Bristol this morning on 23:32 - Jul 18 by Vincent_Vega |
Hello Drizzy,
No we haven’t and I’m happy to talk to anyone about anything. Nothings off the table in my book.
Right ok that’s your aims and that’s fine, let’s go through them
1. Ok what’s the stats on this? What’s the figures? Are other races not getting arrested for the same offences? Are white people not getting jailed for these offences? Is it a percentage thing? I’m sure the background of all peoples play more of a cause of these crimes rather than just their skin colour. Thing is with percentages is the uk is predominantly filled with white people so that must play a part. Also can the BLM marches Achieve parity in its current strategy?
2. I don’t liv in London I don’t see it first hand but from hearing from ex met police and locals the problem is that certain gangs and African groups are incredibly dangerous and don’t give two phucks about killing police officers. This raises the stakes massively and yes police brutality is wrong but the context must be understood. I’m seeing daily videos of police brutality on Twitter but they contain no back story and only last a minute or 2. Many of these videos are taken out of context completely and purposefully put the officers in the worst possible light. Most police these days have bodycams so I. Sure that’ll show the true incident.
3. Ok that’s an opinion what would you propose instead?
4. I presume cases of expulsion are taken case by case and there must be a reason for expelling a child from school. Keen to know what evidence there is of genuine prejudice against black children in this area
5. Hate crime is a relatively new crime so cases will be high, society will catch up. I do believe some of this is outdated views but I do think as well the divisive nature of modern Britain does not help and social media is the petrol that fuels this. BLMs actions in this area is not helping just as much as Britain firsts actions in this area. I. Other words they’re both as bad as each other.
6. Mm interesting. While I agree the way history is taught in schools is a little dated, many people don’t even know their own countries history regardless of the colonial past. Take wales. Most Welsh men and women would have no clue about Hwyl Dda for Example so expecting to shoehorn black history into the curriculum is going to be a stretch. What do you drop to include these lessons? Do you extend the school day? As mentioned in other posts do you include the Islamic slave trade? Ghandis views? How long will these lessons be if you include Everything!?
On the face of it I don’t disagree with disproportionately penalising black people,who would? It weakens a functioning society by Actively excluding Members for no reason bar from they look different.
Well it helped him get his first term and again it’ll rally the middle/working class American against BLM and it’s closest party the democrats. Think about it,if you run a shop or own a business and work your ass off to build that business only to have BLM supporters ruin them in rioting and then democrat mayors telling you to stay closed and go out of business but BLM rioters can do whatever they want what would you think? What if you’re on the breadline or lost your job during the pandemic and you turn on the news and see the riots taking place destroying your town and place of work what would you think when you got a family to feed? You’ll turn people against the cause that They probably agreed with you normally. It’s counterproductive. |
Afternoon, Vince.
I think I could revise my first point to simply "stop imprisoning young black people at an absurdly high rate." A non-violent drug offence is just one type of crime where a disparity occurs but let's use it as an example.
A young black person is 5x more likely to be arrested for a drug offence than a young white person. It's 60% more likely that this offence is "proceeded" at a Magistrates court, however, when you look at actual conviction rates there's no disparity.
It's a pattern that's repeated across every type of crime. Hugely disproportionate arrest rates only for conviction rates to show little disparity with other groups.
This has had a cumulative effect over time and we're in a situation where 40% of our young prison population are black.
You don't have to agree with every aspect of BLM to understand why the movement targets the police, not just because of brutality, but because black people clearly aren't receiving equal treatment. I understand why the black community want to defund a police force that is arresting them at absurd rates for crimes they're no more likely to be convicted of.
When you look at stop and search figures, which gives more powers to the police, the problem gets worse. At its height, black people were searched at 10x the rate of other groups despite similar conviction rates. I think this link ( https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/) covers point 3 and the evidence my opinion is based on.
Moving on to point 4 and education here's another link ( https://fullfact.org/education/black-caribbean-pupils-three-times-more-likely-be There was a more detailed study in 2008 with control factors and from memory, the expulsion rate for black kids was around 2.7x the average. I don't doubt that every individual case is different but once again there's a clear pattern of discrimination, from classrooms to courtrooms, black people punished more severely for the same offences.
I don't condone the rioting, looting or violence that has occurred during some of the BLM protests. I agree that it's counterproductive. What I won't do is let the actions of a minority distract from black people's right to equal treatment.
It's not just the social cost of criminalising black people, we've committed £2.5bn to build 6 new prisons to house our ever-increasing prison population whilst we shut down youth centres and libraries. It would genuinely be cheaper to send a young offender to Eton rather than prison. Strip away everything with BLM, are you happy for your money to be used this way?
I'm sorry I didn't address some of the other issues around the curriculum, hate crimes and possible solutions but it was too much to include in one post. I'm not a policy researcher and there's only so much time in the day. I hope that's a decent account of the wider aims of BLM and the evidence that supports claims of institutional racism. Please feel free to question anything I've presented and I'll happily provide a source. | |
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