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We were buying players in previously, and they plied their trade in the academy.Has anyone been bought in the last couple of years?
Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
Very poor tonight. No intensity, and a very pedestrian pairing of Evans and De Boer in the middle of the park. Throw in some calamitous defending and you end up with a 5-0 thrashing. I have to say I've not been that impressed with the U23s for some time. I'm not sure what our playing identity is meant to be, tika taka it most definitely ain't.
Very poor tonight. No intensity, and a very pedestrian pairing of Evans and De Boer in the middle of the park. Throw in some calamitous defending and you end up with a 5-0 thrashing. I have to say I've not been that impressed with the U23s for some time. I'm not sure what our playing identity is meant to be, tika taka it most definitely ain't.
Toshack and Richards haven't adapted from when we had Rodon and Harries in defence capable of playing out. None of the centre halves since are ball-players. And now we don't have a big man up top, or a Byers to collect the ball and play pacey wide players in either. You're right, there's no identity or plan beyond hoping it ends up with Garrick he can dribble past people (their left back won that battle convincingly).
We improved when Dan Williams came on and actually wanted the ball in midfield, although they'd taken several steps off the gas by that point. Did more in ten minutes than de Boer had done all game, and half of that was an injury stoppage.
We spent a lot of money to build teams to compete at this level previously. Teams of 8 local lads plus 2 more as subs are going to find it increasingly hard. Toshack asked for patience with this young group but it was young last year and will be young again next year as players move up and out of a small development pool (Cullen, Evans, Evans and Garrick will either be gone or first team players next season you would imagine).
We were buying players in previously, and they plied their trade in the academy.Has anyone been bought in the last couple of years?
This is probably the difference. On a PL budget we could afford to spend just to fill the academy/U23s, on the off chance that one or two would make it. I imagine that doesn't happen now.
This is probably the difference. On a PL budget we could afford to spend just to fill the academy/U23s, on the off chance that one or two would make it. I imagine that doesn't happen now.
But if we are to maintain a stream of first team players from the academy it is, IMHO, a false economy not to invest.
The slide in form/league position of the U23s is a bit of a concern for me. The academy & younger players is where surprise promotion runs are built from. No need to buy players if you can develop your own, or buy other academy players for next to nothing.
Imagine if we didn't have Dan & Oli develop? That's $38 million we would've had to cover in the offseason. That would've translated to Borja & Andre going back on loan, and Grimes & van der Hoorn being sold (at minimum). Then we would've still been in bad debt, and would've had one of the cheapest and youngest sides in the league.
A rant I know, but the point is we need to make sure we are still developing quality youngsters. Losing 5-0 after only recently being relegated (hence playing in a weaker division) is a problem.
Sometimes you get a good batch, other times... look at Man Yoo - after class of 92 ( and Savage ), what did they produce for years afterwards? Southampton's academy has seemingly run dry at the moment...
Sometimes you get a good batch, other times... look at Man Yoo - after class of 92 ( and Savage ), what did they produce for years afterwards? Southampton's academy has seemingly run dry at the moment...
I'd hesitate to say it's a bad batch but in the PL years we were releasing players (either after scholarships or a single pro year) that would walk into this team, and if you look at the ages of a lot of the Reading players from last night the "we're a young side" excuse fails to hold much water (their goalkeeper is 16, the showboat 17 with first team appearances to his name).
I am optimistic that a few can progress into first team football given time, and not simply by necessity. And we aren't likely to face the same urgent need for young players as we did last season again, so we can afford to be patient. But you do wonder if Cat One/PL2 football is going to be the right environment for it to happen, given the costs and pressure it involves. A losing culture helps no one - as a team or as individuals - as many relegated PL sides have found.
The slide in form/league position of the U23s is a bit of a concern for me. The academy & younger players is where surprise promotion runs are built from. No need to buy players if you can develop your own, or buy other academy players for next to nothing.
Imagine if we didn't have Dan & Oli develop? That's $38 million we would've had to cover in the offseason. That would've translated to Borja & Andre going back on loan, and Grimes & van der Hoorn being sold (at minimum). Then we would've still been in bad debt, and would've had one of the cheapest and youngest sides in the league.
A rant I know, but the point is we need to make sure we are still developing quality youngsters. Losing 5-0 after only recently being relegated (hence playing in a weaker division) is a problem.
Jasper can tell you how much was spent on Kenji, Rory, and all the others but it was not cheap. Grimes was £1.7m alone. We bought it Barrow, Dan, Oli, Fulton, Byers, Zabret, and about another dozen from Scotland.
The only cheap options were Roberts and Rodon. Thats the answer ... local talent identification, and hard work through the age groups. Now we have no money its a must.
Exeter have produced both Grimes and Ampadu with no money.
I'd hesitate to say it's a bad batch but in the PL years we were releasing players (either after scholarships or a single pro year) that would walk into this team, and if you look at the ages of a lot of the Reading players from last night the "we're a young side" excuse fails to hold much water (their goalkeeper is 16, the showboat 17 with first team appearances to his name).
I am optimistic that a few can progress into first team football given time, and not simply by necessity. And we aren't likely to face the same urgent need for young players as we did last season again, so we can afford to be patient. But you do wonder if Cat One/PL2 football is going to be the right environment for it to happen, given the costs and pressure it involves. A losing culture helps no one - as a team or as individuals - as many relegated PL sides have found.
Losing matches might put the lads on a bit of a downer, but it's not the be-all-end-all and playing against the top academies is a massive benefit imo. Is winning every week against poor players going to be better for them?
As you said earlier, the management team have not adapted to the new players coming through. Maybe the blame lies at their door?
Or maybe the blame lies at the door of the clubs backroom staff, who may have told Toshack and Richards to play a certain way, stopping them from adapting too much in order to accommodate certain players?
Who knows... I do think we need to be looking elsewhere for talent if the local boys aren't good enough. Or, if they are good enough, get better local scouts. Mr Scott, time to step up mush.
Jasper can tell you how much was spent on Kenji, Rory, and all the others but it was not cheap. Grimes was £1.7m alone. We bought it Barrow, Dan, Oli, Fulton, Byers, Zabret, and about another dozen from Scotland.
The only cheap options were Roberts and Rodon. Thats the answer ... local talent identification, and hard work through the age groups. Now we have no money its a must.
Exeter have produced both Grimes and Ampadu with no money.
True, but we didn't have a top notch recruitment team then. They can find decent young "rejects" from the prem or abroad for peanuts Shirley?
Losing matches might put the lads on a bit of a downer, but it's not the be-all-end-all and playing against the top academies is a massive benefit imo. Is winning every week against poor players going to be better for them?
As you said earlier, the management team have not adapted to the new players coming through. Maybe the blame lies at their door?
Or maybe the blame lies at the door of the clubs backroom staff, who may have told Toshack and Richards to play a certain way, stopping them from adapting too much in order to accommodate certain players?
Who knows... I do think we need to be looking elsewhere for talent if the local boys aren't good enough. Or, if they are good enough, get better local scouts. Mr Scott, time to step up mush.
There is definitely a benefit to playing the top academies, as they play on good surfaces and "the right way" etc. where with some of the Cat Two sides we've played in the cup it's like stepping back in time. Horrible pitches, strategy limited to lumping it up towards the two talented lads up top, teams full of thugs and a rugby referee (Oxford away was horrendous). Can't remember which team played a required stadium game on a bone dry national league pitch last season, but you can tell our lads enjoy being able to play at the Liberty when they get the chance. That's great preparation for the real thing.
But getting stuffed or being happy with draws isn't great preparation either. Attacking players being starved of the ball and/or support every game isn't helpful. Leeds are bringing through good numbers at the moment battering sides in the PDL (with the help of a few seniors).
But if we are to maintain a stream of first team players from the academy it is, IMHO, a false economy not to invest.
Probably, yeah. I agree they should prioritise where they can if the intention is to rely on it. But at the same time the pot is finite. PL revenue gave us much more of a chance to invest. Not to mention better prospects would have been willing to come to us back then.
Individual development trumps winning pointless trophies all day long
And yet our best development crop won trophies, going back to the 14-15 PDL League win with Roberts, Rodon, Grimes, Fulton, Sheehan (Newport), Samuel (Wycombe), Kingsley (Hull), Shephard (Forest Green) and a few others all around. Then we kept winning trophies as DJ, Oli, Byers etc. were added to the group.
People on here used to take the piss out of them having the nerve to parade the trophy around like they'd accomplished something.
There is definitely a benefit to playing the top academies, as they play on good surfaces and "the right way" etc. where with some of the Cat Two sides we've played in the cup it's like stepping back in time. Horrible pitches, strategy limited to lumping it up towards the two talented lads up top, teams full of thugs and a rugby referee (Oxford away was horrendous). Can't remember which team played a required stadium game on a bone dry national league pitch last season, but you can tell our lads enjoy being able to play at the Liberty when they get the chance. That's great preparation for the real thing.
But getting stuffed or being happy with draws isn't great preparation either. Attacking players being starved of the ball and/or support every game isn't helpful. Leeds are bringing through good numbers at the moment battering sides in the PDL (with the help of a few seniors).
I agree. But it's a balancing act. What do you choose init? I'd keep the cat 1 tbh. I'm guessing you'd downgrade going by your posts.
And yet our best development crop won trophies, going back to the 14-15 PDL League win with Roberts, Rodon, Grimes, Fulton, Sheehan (Newport), Samuel (Wycombe), Kingsley (Hull), Shephard (Forest Green) and a few others all around. Then we kept winning trophies as DJ, Oli, Byers etc. were added to the group.
People on here used to take the piss out of them having the nerve to parade the trophy around like they'd accomplished something.
Correlation and causation are two separate issues , Jasp
Although it's unrealistic to expect players to come through every year.
Correlation and causation are two separate issues , Jasp
Although it's unrealistic to expect players to come through every year.
It's not about players not coming through every year, I' about no prospect of any players coming through for many years. If you don't replenish the fridge but keep eating from it eventually you starve.
Correlation and causation are two separate issues , Jasp
Although it's unrealistic to expect players to come through every year.
Good players win trophies or winning trophies produces good players. That's correlation vs causation. We're losing games and scraping draws. The u18s take regular hammerings and have for years.
I agree. But it's a balancing act. What do you choose init? I'd keep the cat 1 tbh. I'm guessing you'd downgrade going by your posts.
I think a downgrade is inevitable unless we get promoted. Financially we won't be able to manage it. It won't be the end of our academy and ability to produce local players (which is mostly what we're using now anyway) and there are some silver linings.
The u23s play PSV tomorrow in the international cup. Another perk of Cat One status, but not a competition we've done especially well in in recent years. Semi-final in 16-17 (losing to eventual winners Porto) and out in the group stage since.
SWANS U23s: Gregor Zabret, Connor Roberts, Aaron Lewis (Tom Plezier, 75), Ryan Blair (Adnan Maric, 66), Keston Davies (Capt), Joe Rodon, Daniel James, Jay Fulton, Oli McBurnie, Adam King, Kenji Gorre (George Byers, 76) UNUSED SUBS: Alex Lang, Jack Evans, Liam Cullen, Keiran Evans.
That's only 3 local players in that team, with another 4 unused on the bench (Alex Lang is now playing regularly for Cardiff Met). Now we're expecting to compete within the same level of competition with teams of 8/9/10 from the same age groups.
I think a downgrade is inevitable unless we get promoted. Financially we won't be able to manage it. It won't be the end of our academy and ability to produce local players (which is mostly what we're using now anyway) and there are some silver linings.
The u23s play PSV tomorrow in the international cup. Another perk of Cat One status, but not a competition we've done especially well in in recent years. Semi-final in 16-17 (losing to eventual winners Porto) and out in the group stage since.
SWANS U23s: Gregor Zabret, Connor Roberts, Aaron Lewis (Tom Plezier, 75), Ryan Blair (Adnan Maric, 66), Keston Davies (Capt), Joe Rodon, Daniel James, Jay Fulton, Oli McBurnie, Adam King, Kenji Gorre (George Byers, 76) UNUSED SUBS: Alex Lang, Jack Evans, Liam Cullen, Keiran Evans.
Isn't that international cup a good thing, even if we lose every game in it? The boys must love playing in it and the experience they get must be a massive benefit to them and the club.
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