| Next Season 14:53 - Apr 4 with 16624 views | Yossarian |
Apparently:
The Academy is being cut back to Tier 3
All Youth coaches will be part-time
The kids will be back at Llandarcy or the Elba and the First team back at Landore
Fairwood is being offloaded back to the University....or another buyer like a Health Club chain
They can’t afford to pay McBurnie’s bonus for scoring so he’s being used sparingly
Most of the young players who have come through this season are being lined up for transfers
If Potter gets an offer, he will be off because it will involve a compensation payment.
We are in a battle for survival. I am depressed. Shades of 1982 all over again.
How on earth did it come to this?
[Post edited 4 Apr 2019 14:55]
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| "Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22) |
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| Next Season on 21:08 - Apr 4 with 2912 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Next Season on 20:46 - Apr 4 by jasper_T |
Sunderland said their Cat One academy cost £4m a year to run, plus wages of the players which at the moment must run us over £1m a year, plus the cost of bringing in the players that have allowed us to compete at this level (McBurnie £300k, similar for each of the Falkirk crew etc.) £2.5m a year doesn't cover it. And Sunderland weren't selling an Asoro every year from theirs.
Clubs in this division without top level academies already make operational losses in the tens of millions that need to be covered by player sales. Add in the cost of an academy and you place a huge onus on constantly selling products, or racking up significant debt.
With our players potentially spending less time in development football now due to the increased opportunity for senior games (Brandon Cooper made his debut in the League Cup 6 or 7 months after his u23s debut as an extreme example) it's worth thinking about the relative value of that spending. Cat Three might save the club £3m a year and still allow for players like Joe Allen, Ben Davies and Connor Roberts to come through (Rodon would likely have been poached). That's 10-20% of a typical Championship club's turnover, compared to 2-3% in the PL when players were staying in the u23s squad (and on the books) until they were 22/23/24. |
There’s changing a tune and there’s this. |  | | |
| Next Season on 21:21 - Apr 4 with 2866 views | jasper_T |
| Next Season on 21:08 - Apr 4 by londonlisa2001 |
There’s changing a tune and there’s this. |
Disagree with anything there, Lisa?
A Category One academy is very expensive, that's the cold hard truth of the matter. The EPPP was designed that way, to forcibly improve standards (and help the richest clubs poach young talent). | | | |
| Next Season on 22:23 - Apr 4 with 2746 views | Blue_Blood |
| Next Season on 20:46 - Apr 4 by jasper_T |
Sunderland said their Cat One academy cost £4m a year to run, plus wages of the players which at the moment must run us over £1m a year, plus the cost of bringing in the players that have allowed us to compete at this level (McBurnie £300k, similar for each of the Falkirk crew etc.) £2.5m a year doesn't cover it. And Sunderland weren't selling an Asoro every year from theirs.
Clubs in this division without top level academies already make operational losses in the tens of millions that need to be covered by player sales. Add in the cost of an academy and you place a huge onus on constantly selling products, or racking up significant debt.
With our players potentially spending less time in development football now due to the increased opportunity for senior games (Brandon Cooper made his debut in the League Cup 6 or 7 months after his u23s debut as an extreme example) it's worth thinking about the relative value of that spending. Cat Three might save the club £3m a year and still allow for players like Joe Allen, Ben Davies and Connor Roberts to come through (Rodon would likely have been poached). That's 10-20% of a typical Championship club's turnover, compared to 2-3% in the PL when players were staying in the u23s squad (and on the books) until they were 22/23/24. |
Just because you've previously paid a lot of money for substantial players doesn't mean you have to now. When you were a premier league club you were bound to be more willing to gamble on players for the academy in the se way you'd spend more gambling on the first team.
You don't have spend to bring in players if your academy can develop from within. What you need to remember is that the club had to supplement the players you already had cos the players you had in the system weren't given the advantage of being brought through a cat 1 academy.
The standard of coaching and training time is bound to make good players better and considering how much your academy is currently bringing assets to the club I'm amazed by the apathy of your fan base to something that is is your very lifeblood and without its recent success you'd be seriously struggling to stay in the championship this season!
My last point would be to say that times change and I'd be amazed to see you bring through another Joe Allen if you were now running a cat 3 academy.
Every good kid in the country is on the radar of the big clubs and it would be inevitable that someone of that standard would be poached for peanuts in this day and age if you were a cat 3 academy. | | | |
| Next Season on 23:14 - Apr 4 with 2674 views | majorraglan |
| Next Season on 22:23 - Apr 4 by Blue_Blood |
Just because you've previously paid a lot of money for substantial players doesn't mean you have to now. When you were a premier league club you were bound to be more willing to gamble on players for the academy in the se way you'd spend more gambling on the first team.
You don't have spend to bring in players if your academy can develop from within. What you need to remember is that the club had to supplement the players you already had cos the players you had in the system weren't given the advantage of being brought through a cat 1 academy.
The standard of coaching and training time is bound to make good players better and considering how much your academy is currently bringing assets to the club I'm amazed by the apathy of your fan base to something that is is your very lifeblood and without its recent success you'd be seriously struggling to stay in the championship this season!
My last point would be to say that times change and I'd be amazed to see you bring through another Joe Allen if you were now running a cat 3 academy.
Every good kid in the country is on the radar of the big clubs and it would be inevitable that someone of that standard would be poached for peanuts in this day and age if you were a cat 3 academy. |
I have to say I agree with this. Emyr Huws left the club at 16 to ply his trade at Man City. | | | |
| Next Season on 23:24 - Apr 4 with 2655 views | Badlands |
I would think all concerned will look at the £&p and see the academy has paid for itself.
Consider the cost of binging in a
McBurnie
James
Roberts
Grimes
Rodon
Byers
Fulton
and they are on far lower wages than a transfer would expect and low (if any) agents' fees.
Next season we can realistically expect to see these play in the first team, some as regulars
Benda
Cabango
Dhanda
Asoro
Keston
Cooper
Govea
Reid
Cullen
Baker-Richardson
Powerful financial argument there.
Another Celina or keep the academy going? [Post edited 4 Apr 2019 23:25]
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| Next Season on 10:21 - Apr 5 with 2463 views | jasper_T |
If any of those are regulars we're in trouble. I'm not normally the guy who says that line but there we are.
We're not going to see the same (or greater) volume of graduates we did this year every year. This season was the product of a many years work and the floodgates locked by the Premier League being suddenly opened.
Had we been in the Championship the whole time Connor would have been in our first team in 16-17. Dan James last season. George Byers signed for our u23s after spending the latter part of the 15-16 season involved in match day squads in Watford's successful Championship promotion campaign. Matt Grimes signed for us during the 14-15 season for a handsome fee and wage packet. We won't find teenagers matching their quality waiting in the academy every season. The u23s cupboard is more bare than it was (compare league performances between this season and last for proof of that).
Ben Cabango is nowhere near where Joe Rodon was 18 months ago (although they're very different centre halves either way). I like Cooper but he's had another injury plagued season hampering progress. Govea has hardly played. Reid should be released at the end of this season, he's not good enough.
Benda should be our second choice goalkeeper next season with one of the numbers ones departing. And yfingers crossed Asoro finds the quality to justifies his £2m price tag. But an optimistic hope for academy production from here is that they come though in ones and twos each season, not sevens, eights and nines. | | | |
| Next Season on 11:39 - Apr 5 with 2402 views | jasper_T |
A choice between buying another Celina and keeping the academy intact for another year is simple. Academy every time.
But the decision seems more likely to be between keeping a player and selling one to keep the academy intact for another year. It's not a straightforward decision. Youth development is always a gamble and when the parachute payments drop to nothing you're gambling a significant percentage of the club's income on being able to sell your emerging stars.
If the Cabango rumour is true that's an incredible fee for him, and doesn't nearly cover the annual costs involved. | | | |
| Next Season on 13:05 - Apr 5 with 2348 views | Badlands |
| Next Season on 11:39 - Apr 5 by jasper_T |
A choice between buying another Celina and keeping the academy intact for another year is simple. Academy every time.
But the decision seems more likely to be between keeping a player and selling one to keep the academy intact for another year. It's not a straightforward decision. Youth development is always a gamble and when the parachute payments drop to nothing you're gambling a significant percentage of the club's income on being able to sell your emerging stars.
If the Cabango rumour is true that's an incredible fee for him, and doesn't nearly cover the annual costs involved. |
Selling James would and I'd cash in on him while his star is rising.
In this division bringing a couple of players hough to the first team and selling 2 - 3 covers the cost through income, savings on transfers and high wages of players transferring in. | |
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| Next Season on 13:05 - Apr 5 with 2347 views | TailGunner |
| Next Season on 11:39 - Apr 5 by jasper_T |
A choice between buying another Celina and keeping the academy intact for another year is simple. Academy every time.
But the decision seems more likely to be between keeping a player and selling one to keep the academy intact for another year. It's not a straightforward decision. Youth development is always a gamble and when the parachute payments drop to nothing you're gambling a significant percentage of the club's income on being able to sell your emerging stars.
If the Cabango rumour is true that's an incredible fee for him, and doesn't nearly cover the annual costs involved. |
4m for a skint championship side threatening redundancy across the board to keep cat A running for 1 year - instead of investing in the first team????
Never in a million years for me. No brainer. | | | |
| Next Season on 13:22 - Apr 5 with 2332 views | Blue_Blood |
| Next Season on 10:21 - Apr 5 by jasper_T |
If any of those are regulars we're in trouble. I'm not normally the guy who says that line but there we are.
We're not going to see the same (or greater) volume of graduates we did this year every year. This season was the product of a many years work and the floodgates locked by the Premier League being suddenly opened.
Had we been in the Championship the whole time Connor would have been in our first team in 16-17. Dan James last season. George Byers signed for our u23s after spending the latter part of the 15-16 season involved in match day squads in Watford's successful Championship promotion campaign. Matt Grimes signed for us during the 14-15 season for a handsome fee and wage packet. We won't find teenagers matching their quality waiting in the academy every season. The u23s cupboard is more bare than it was (compare league performances between this season and last for proof of that).
Ben Cabango is nowhere near where Joe Rodon was 18 months ago (although they're very different centre halves either way). I like Cooper but he's had another injury plagued season hampering progress. Govea has hardly played. Reid should be released at the end of this season, he's not good enough.
Benda should be our second choice goalkeeper next season with one of the numbers ones departing. And yfingers crossed Asoro finds the quality to justifies his £2m price tag. But an optimistic hope for academy production from here is that they come though in ones and twos each season, not sevens, eights and nines. |
Good post and I agree with a lot of an of course your last paragraph is right in that you are likely to bring one or two rather than six or seven through like you have this year.
It's in the conclusion where we differ. If you do bring one through a year and that one goes on to be an £8-10 million player like a Rodon, Roberts, James, Mcburnie then the academy has more than done its job and is running at a profit, so it would be senseless to downgrade.
I suppose this is Birch's remit to calculate the outgoings vs assets accrued. In doing this he'll surely have to also take into consideration the avoidance of transfer fees in bringing through players like Rodon and Robert's and how much the wages would be for current Wales internationals if they didn't come through your system.
I also reiterate what I said before, having someone like a Grimes, James, Mcburnie in the system from young helps nurture the young talent in how you want them to play, the values of the club etc and poses far less risk than bringing in an an Asoro or Celina, or should I say a Borja Baston or a Renato Sanches! | | | |
| Next Season on 14:08 - Apr 5 with 2292 views | jasper_T |
| Next Season on 13:05 - Apr 5 by TailGunner |
4m for a skint championship side threatening redundancy across the board to keep cat A running for 1 year - instead of investing in the first team????
Never in a million years for me. No brainer. |
Keeping Cat One would directly prevent redundancies as coaches would stay on and work more hours. That's where much of the savings come from. Cat One is 1 coach per 8 kids, providing 300+ hours of coaching per year for each, while Cat Three is 1 coach per 10 kids, providing ~120 hours (think that's for u11s iirc but it all follows a similar pattern).
But I can understand that viewpoint. I've always been biased towards youth development/investment as I watch almost as much football at that level as I do senior stuff. Keeping the first team competitive is paramount, but there's some wiggle room in how you try to accomplish that aim. | | | |
| Next Season on 14:17 - Apr 5 with 2272 views | Luther27 |
Sorry to butt in, but is the OP making a statement or is all this just conjecture? | | | |
| Next Season on 14:19 - Apr 5 with 2268 views | jasper_T |
| Next Season on 14:17 - Apr 5 by Luther27 |
Sorry to butt in, but is the OP making a statement or is all this just conjecture? |
"Apparently"...
The return of the "Oli wasn't ill" (or was infected by US spies) conspiracy theory is a bit of a red flag. | | | |
| Next Season on 14:26 - Apr 5 with 2253 views | TailGunner |
| Next Season on 14:08 - Apr 5 by jasper_T |
Keeping Cat One would directly prevent redundancies as coaches would stay on and work more hours. That's where much of the savings come from. Cat One is 1 coach per 8 kids, providing 300+ hours of coaching per year for each, while Cat Three is 1 coach per 10 kids, providing ~120 hours (think that's for u11s iirc but it all follows a similar pattern).
But I can understand that viewpoint. I've always been biased towards youth development/investment as I watch almost as much football at that level as I do senior stuff. Keeping the first team competitive is paramount, but there's some wiggle room in how you try to accomplish that aim. |
I understand that Jasper and they are worthy points.
But it seems there is no wriggle room whatsoever down there.
Punters through turnstiles bring in money, the more invested into the first team, the more trust is gained and more people will pay to watch. | | | |
| Next Season on 14:31 - Apr 5 with 2239 views | jasper_T |
| Next Season on 14:26 - Apr 5 by TailGunner |
I understand that Jasper and they are worthy points.
But it seems there is no wriggle room whatsoever down there.
Punters through turnstiles bring in money, the more invested into the first team, the more trust is gained and more people will pay to watch. |
And get promoted next season off the back of a new £4m centre forward and we can spend freely on the academy again in the PL. There are decisions to be made, none of them simple, and success on either front can help the overall picture. | | | |
| Next Season on 14:40 - Apr 5 with 2224 views | TailGunner |
| Next Season on 14:31 - Apr 5 by jasper_T |
And get promoted next season off the back of a new £4m centre forward and we can spend freely on the academy again in the PL. There are decisions to be made, none of them simple, and success on either front can help the overall picture. |
Hate to say it but I'm in full agreement
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| Next Season on 14:43 - Apr 5 with 2222 views | Badlands |
| Next Season on 14:26 - Apr 5 by TailGunner |
I understand that Jasper and they are worthy points.
But it seems there is no wriggle room whatsoever down there.
Punters through turnstiles bring in money, the more invested into the first team, the more trust is gained and more people will pay to watch. |
... which implicates the 'boycotters' in running down the club. | |
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| Next Season on 15:01 - Apr 5 with 2196 views | TailGunner |
| Next Season on 14:43 - Apr 5 by Badlands |
... which implicates the 'boycotters' in running down the club. |
I totally empathise with those who have had enough. People will be so unbelievably dissolusioned with us, as we are taking away our legacies from the PL experience.
I will be there no matter what, but not straightforward for many. | | | |
| Next Season on 16:43 - Apr 5 with 2103 views | jack247 |
| Next Season on 14:43 - Apr 5 by Badlands |
... which implicates the 'boycotters' in running down the club. |
Yeah that’s right.
The fans that didn’t go to a £20 fa cup match and haven’t bought a replica shirt are the reason we’ll end up flogging Dan James and downgrading the academy. | | | |
| Next Season on 16:46 - Apr 5 with 2096 views | glanmorjak |
| Next Season on 23:24 - Apr 4 by Badlands |
I would think all concerned will look at the £&p and see the academy has paid for itself.
Consider the cost of binging in a
McBurnie
James
Roberts
Grimes
Rodon
Byers
Fulton
and they are on far lower wages than a transfer would expect and low (if any) agents' fees.
Next season we can realistically expect to see these play in the first team, some as regulars
Benda
Cabango
Dhanda
Asoro
Keston
Cooper
Govea
Reid
Cullen
Baker-Richardson
Powerful financial argument there.
Another Celina or keep the academy going? [Post edited 4 Apr 2019 23:25]
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Keston and Reid will be gone at end of season while most of the remainder will either be part of the first team squad, out on loan or play in the 23’s.
We can only guess at the cost of our academy 1 status and if there needs to be a down grading I would hope that the club would be able to afford the drop to academy 2, the same level the team was playing at when Landore was opened.
It’s a known fact that the academy is over staffed with coaches and the saving in wages plus other staff that became a necessity for academy 1 status could well be sufficient. Throw in the saving if transfer fees that were paid for the likes of Fulton, Oli, Kingsley, King etc., and instead concentrate on more opportunities for kids released from academy 1 clubs plus local kids could well see the academy continue to flourish. | | | |
| Next Season on 23:54 - Apr 5 with 1899 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Next Season on 16:46 - Apr 5 by glanmorjak |
Keston and Reid will be gone at end of season while most of the remainder will either be part of the first team squad, out on loan or play in the 23’s.
We can only guess at the cost of our academy 1 status and if there needs to be a down grading I would hope that the club would be able to afford the drop to academy 2, the same level the team was playing at when Landore was opened.
It’s a known fact that the academy is over staffed with coaches and the saving in wages plus other staff that became a necessity for academy 1 status could well be sufficient. Throw in the saving if transfer fees that were paid for the likes of Fulton, Oli, Kingsley, King etc., and instead concentrate on more opportunities for kids released from academy 1 clubs plus local kids could well see the academy continue to flourish. |
We have no money.
More than half the Championship clubs do not have Cat 1 academies.
Until we get back in Prem, then no fees for any players below first team squad.
Work harder with local boys.
7 years between Ben and Connor remember.
Cat 1 contributed no players to our Premier league sides. Not one.
Zabret has been with us since 2013 and is not even our 3rd choice keeper. Wtf is going on.
TeamKenji ...?! [Post edited 5 Apr 2019 23:55]
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Next Season on 03:11 - Apr 6 with 1851 views | BLAZE |
"Cat 1 contributed no players to our Premier league sides. Not one."
Bloody hell, within a couple of years of gaining Category 1 we were relegated. Did you expect results over night?
You spent last season knocking our youth structure for not producing much since Ben Davies. Of course, you've been quiet this year with the emergence of Roberts, Rodon, James etc... I thought you may have realised the error of your ways, but here you are spouting the same rubbish again [Post edited 6 Apr 2019 3:12]
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| Next Season on 03:33 - Apr 6 with 1836 views | BLAZE |
Slight deviation here but I drove past Landore today. Maintenance costs on such a big facility won't be cheap... Let's hope Martin Morgan's boys done a decent job putting it all together... 🤠👷â€â™‚ï¸
Meanwhile, the Liberty closer resembles 'Rustrock' than Whiterock these days. It looked a sorry sight in today's rain. Thank goodness we're not responsible for its upkeep... Oh. | | | |
| Next Season on 08:07 - Apr 6 with 1747 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Next Season on 22:23 - Apr 4 by Blue_Blood |
Just because you've previously paid a lot of money for substantial players doesn't mean you have to now. When you were a premier league club you were bound to be more willing to gamble on players for the academy in the se way you'd spend more gambling on the first team.
You don't have spend to bring in players if your academy can develop from within. What you need to remember is that the club had to supplement the players you already had cos the players you had in the system weren't given the advantage of being brought through a cat 1 academy.
The standard of coaching and training time is bound to make good players better and considering how much your academy is currently bringing assets to the club I'm amazed by the apathy of your fan base to something that is is your very lifeblood and without its recent success you'd be seriously struggling to stay in the championship this season!
My last point would be to say that times change and I'd be amazed to see you bring through another Joe Allen if you were now running a cat 3 academy.
Every good kid in the country is on the radar of the big clubs and it would be inevitable that someone of that standard would be poached for peanuts in this day and age if you were a cat 3 academy. |
Think you have mixed up your facts. We had a category 3 academy when Joe Allen was developed. The academy used public facilities to play on even our first team used to train on public facilities. They used the old BP Llandarcy facilities during our first season in the PL.
The academy at Landore was only started during our PL years and the first team trained there for a while before moving to fairwood. Our Academy only gained cat 1 status after the indoor facilities were built around our 4th year In the PL. Arguably our two best youngsters Joe Allen and Ben Davies were produced by our cat 3 academy.
Having said that it would be a backward step loosing our Academy.
You only have to look at Cardiff's Academy who have not produced any decent players for Cardiff since Ramsey over 10 years ago. | |
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| Next Season on 08:52 - Apr 6 with 1708 views | trinityann |
| Next Season on 08:07 - Apr 6 by felixstowe_jack |
Think you have mixed up your facts. We had a category 3 academy when Joe Allen was developed. The academy used public facilities to play on even our first team used to train on public facilities. They used the old BP Llandarcy facilities during our first season in the PL.
The academy at Landore was only started during our PL years and the first team trained there for a while before moving to fairwood. Our Academy only gained cat 1 status after the indoor facilities were built around our 4th year In the PL. Arguably our two best youngsters Joe Allen and Ben Davies were produced by our cat 3 academy.
Having said that it would be a backward step loosing our Academy.
You only have to look at Cardiff's Academy who have not produced any decent players for Cardiff since Ramsey over 10 years ago. |
There has to be a balance between first team and the academy. I personally think the academy has more than paid itself just on this season alone. As a neutral I always admire clubs like Ajax/Monaco that promote kids to first team and to be honest their reap the rewards financially.
If you have a good academy and good scouting network, one gem of a player could pay for the academy for 10 years. | | | |
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