| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists 11:34 - Oct 5 with 18903 views | CopperJack |
Can someone explain something to me, please?
So, you want to leave our biggest market (the UK), on top of all the financial aid we get from England (infinitely more than from the EU, the south east of England basically bankrolls the UK), to join the EU and expatriate those powers to another foreign power in Brussels?
This post isn't meant to be inflammatory, I genuinely don't get it. Besides an irrational hatred of England, the stance of 'life isn't worth living outside of the EU', doesn't match with 'life isn't worth living inside the UK'. They're entirely contrary, in fact.
If you want independence, and be in charge of all our own rules, then fine, I get that, but then don't then gift all those powers to Brussels. If you're concerned with leaving the single market, why would you advocate leaving our BIGGEST market - not to mention the number of people who commute across the border. The EU isn't the land of milk and honey that the nationalists and media portray it, just look at youth unemployment across the EU - there are much bigger and wealthier countries with higher unemployment rates than us, because we're part of the UK.
It just strikes me as 'we're willing to take anything to stick it up the nasty English', but would love clarification on how these two stances aren't contrary. Thanks |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:29 - Oct 5 with 8932 views | Highjack |
I don’t see the logic in fighting for independence only to hand the power over to Brussels. Wales would be fine on its own. |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:35 - Oct 5 with 8920 views | trampie |
We don't get financial aid from England, we are part of the UK, England is not a sovereign state.
Some supporters of independence don't want to be in the EU, don't think for one minute that all pro Independence supporters for Wales are all pro EU as well.
Irrational hatred of the English you say.....hmm....I don't know anyone that supports independence having an irrational hatred of the English, where did you get that idea from ?
The current leader of Plaid Cymru mother is English and the previous leader has an English surname and didn't speak Welsh, disingenuous opponents, fake news and project fear at play it seems.
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:38 - Oct 5 with 8915 views | trampie |
A question for you CooperJack, why do you think people that support Independence hate English people ? | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:42 - Oct 5 with 8906 views | Highjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:35 - Oct 5 by trampie |
We don't get financial aid from England, we are part of the UK, England is not a sovereign state.
Some supporters of independence don't want to be in the EU, don't think for one minute that all pro Independence supporters for Wales are all pro EU as well.
Irrational hatred of the English you say.....hmm....I don't know anyone that supports independence having an irrational hatred of the English, where did you get that idea from ?
The current leader of Plaid Cymru mother is English and the previous leader has an English surname and didn't speak Welsh, disingenuous opponents, fake news and project fear at play it seems.
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The question was aimed towards plaid supporters and plaid are very much fanatical europhiles. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:49 - Oct 5 with 8898 views | trampie |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:42 - Oct 5 by Highjack |
The question was aimed towards plaid supporters and plaid are very much fanatical europhiles. |
What Plaid supporters hate English people ??? | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:59 - Oct 5 with 8872 views | Lohengrin |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 12:49 - Oct 5 by trampie |
What Plaid supporters hate English people ??? |
You do. It couldn’t be made any more blatant if you changed your user name to ‘I HATE ENGLISH PEOPLE!’ All shouty like that in capitals.  |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:10 - Oct 5 with 8859 views | BytholWyn |
For starters I think it's fair to say that the challenges that would confront Wales on leaving the UK would have broad similarities to the challenges facing the UK in the event of a hard Brexit. There's no reason that an "independent" Uk nor Wales could be successful in the long-term - anyone who believes to the contrary has a supremacist or inferiority complex agenda. The problem of course is getting from here to there without enduring considerable economic pain en route.
The rest of the UK, and England in particular, will always be Wales' biggest single country market, as it is for Ireland - so whatever structures that are in place for trade between the two countries are of great significance. Assuming that an independent Wales becomes a member of the EU it would trade with England in exactly the same way (at least) as the rest of the EU, including Ireland. Whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations (and the chances are still that the UK will be closely aligned with the EU - on goods at least) once things have settled down, streamlined trading relationships will be established between the UK and the EU - because it's in the mutual interest of both parties, especially the UKs. So, an independent Wales could expect to have on-going close trading relationship with England via the EU.
There is a degree of truth about the "financial aid we get from England" - but this is grossly exaggerated, for reasons that have been exhaustively examined in other threads. Plus, as a member of the EU we could expect a greater level of support with economic development than we've obtained as a region of a relatively affluent country. Also, your characterisation of the EU as a "foreign power in Brussels" is not one I recognise. The EU is a collaborative enterprise that gives the smaller countries, in particular, power and influence that exceeds their size - both in EU parliament representation (compare Ireland's MEP number to Wales') and also in that a tiny country like Malta shares the EU presidency on an equal share as the largest - Germany. Of course, if you want to see the EU as a malign entity that's your choice, personally I think that's frankly paranoid, whilst acknowledging the EU has many limitations.
I think you'll really struggle to find any evidence to support the idea that there is an irrational hatred of England. There is an entirely rational recognition of the fact that we get a raw deal from the Westminster government, and have done consistently for centuries - but hatred? Where?
The point about leaving the single market is that yes, it may well be wonderful to be able to have complete control over immigration from the EU - but that comes with a cost. There is no problem with EU migration to Wales, so it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. The price tag of membership is one well worth paying. In the event of Wales being in the single market and England being outside it, it's highly likely that any restrictions on movement would be minimal, or even purely symbolic - because: A - there is no problem with migration to the UK (less than a third of overall net migration to the UK), so any restrictions are pointless, and B - at worst any relationship between an independent Wales in the EU, and an independent England outside the EU, would be no different to the relationship between any other country in the EU and England.
The main argument for Welsh independence comes from looking at the trasnsformative effect that EU membership has had on Ireland, economically, and culturally. If you would have said back in the seventies that Ireland would, within a generation, become a prosperous country with an openly gay prime minister no one would have believed it. But EU investment has played a vital role in that transformation. Had the UK taken a similar approach to investment in Wales there is no reason at all why we wouldn't be in the same situation. Instead, Wales (like the marginal regions of England) has been starved of investment - especially in infrastructure, which is vital for economic development. it's simply naive given centuries of experience, to think that England is suddenly going to start giving Wales a fair deal. That's not hatred, just realism. The sooner we can take control of our destiny the sooner we will reap the rewards. The difference between that aspiration and the aspiration of hard Brexiteers is that the Welsh spirit is rootedly communitarian - which is very much at odds with the nutcase neo-liberalism of the hard right Brexiteers. |  | | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:28 - Oct 5 with 8818 views | trampie |
I don't hate anybody and I like pandas . | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:30 - Oct 5 with 8809 views | Mo_Wives |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:12 - Oct 5 by omarjack |
I like pandas. But it doesn't mean I want to be shagged by one.
Oh btw I don't give a sh!t about the independence argument. Just trying to clarify what Trampie feels like regarding the English, who happen to be furry pandas in this metaphor (which doesn't represent me, after all I don't claim to repulsed at the idea of being shagged by pandas, nor do I confirm such impulse). [Post edited 5 Oct 2018 13:14]
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Yes, but are you waiting for the Mab Darogan to come and force all pandas out of Britain? |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:32 - Oct 5 with 8804 views | Mo_Wives |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:28 - Oct 5 by trampie |
I don't hate anybody and I like pandas . |
This. I can't agree more, Tramps | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 14:31 - Oct 5 with 8749 views | Lohengrin |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 13:28 - Oct 5 by trampie |
I don't hate anybody and I like pandas . |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:35 - Oct 5 with 8639 views | Catullus |
With all the problems the UK is enduring leaving the EU, those same things will apply to Welsh independence but probably they will be worse. The UK has only been in the EU 45 years, Wales has been tied to England many times more than that. Economically, culturally, spiritually and geographically we are British.
If we went independent we would then have to apply to join the EU and we'd have to meet the "Copenhagen criteria" which is 35 different sections that have to be met and fulfilled in order, but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck.
Joining the EU could literally take years and what do we do in that time? We have no more income from England and no help from the EU, it's much, much more of a gamble than brexit.
By the nature of their posts Kilkenny (definitely) and trampie do seem to loathe the English, at least the right wing English anyway. Though Kilk does get a tad irate with anyone who speaks out in support of the union!
If brexit happened with no deal, then what? Go independent, wait possibly a long time to join the EU to find trading with the UK happened on WTO rules and we are paying tariffs for things bought an hours drive away, possibly have to take a passport to get across the border into England. Though maybe the nats would be happier when all our sporting teams had to join the Welsh league (or would we be allowed to cherry pick) and Glamorgan became extinct. Even with a decent deal that sporting scenario would probably happen if we left the union.
That raw deal we get, it's exactly the same with the Welsh government, they spend masses on the South East corner of Wales while the rest rots. Why do nats think politics will change with independence? | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:34 - Oct 5 with 8549 views | Kilkennyjack |
The Barry Horns on twitter::
Let's face it, the real problem the Brit Nats have with the EU is that it's a union wherein they can't utterly feck over the other nations within it.
As in steal their water and oil while pumping Royalist propaganda into classrooms and living rooms.
Cheers, have a good day. ðŸ‘
I think thats about the size of it ....ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:38 - Oct 5 with 8543 views | yescomeon |
- Leaving the market: We wouldn't necessarily have to go down the "no-deal" independence route. I would imagine that negotiations would be more amicable that the UK-EU negotiations.
- Aid from England: We don't get aid from England. We pay taxes, the tax money comes to us.It can't even be said for sure that we get back more than we pay.
- Any perceived lack of sovereignty the UK experienced as a member of the EU is hardly comparable to the lack of sovereignty Wales currently has as part of the UK. Even an independent Wales as an EU member (which doesn't have to be the route taken) would enjoy "infinitely" more sovereignty that it currently has.
I'm convinced that Wales would be so much better off outside of the UK, I just don't see how things get any better for Wales in the UK. Perhaps a home rule situation would be more realistic given the amount of English in Wales. That way for all intents and purposes Wales is independent, but unionists get to call themselves British if they wish.
I also imagine independence by default as the most likely route. Both Scottish and Northern Irish independence is highly likely in the future. In that scenarios, I don't see the English keeping the Union alive.
Interesting aside, the English that are more nationalist than the Welsh, with over 60.38% of the population of England identifying as "English only" rather than "British only" or "English and British", compared to 57.51% of Wales identifying as "Welsh only" [1].
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom |  |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:56 - Oct 5 with 8520 views | Groo |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:35 - Oct 5 by Catullus |
With all the problems the UK is enduring leaving the EU, those same things will apply to Welsh independence but probably they will be worse. The UK has only been in the EU 45 years, Wales has been tied to England many times more than that. Economically, culturally, spiritually and geographically we are British.
If we went independent we would then have to apply to join the EU and we'd have to meet the "Copenhagen criteria" which is 35 different sections that have to be met and fulfilled in order, but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck.
Joining the EU could literally take years and what do we do in that time? We have no more income from England and no help from the EU, it's much, much more of a gamble than brexit.
By the nature of their posts Kilkenny (definitely) and trampie do seem to loathe the English, at least the right wing English anyway. Though Kilk does get a tad irate with anyone who speaks out in support of the union!
If brexit happened with no deal, then what? Go independent, wait possibly a long time to join the EU to find trading with the UK happened on WTO rules and we are paying tariffs for things bought an hours drive away, possibly have to take a passport to get across the border into England. Though maybe the nats would be happier when all our sporting teams had to join the Welsh league (or would we be allowed to cherry pick) and Glamorgan became extinct. Even with a decent deal that sporting scenario would probably happen if we left the union.
That raw deal we get, it's exactly the same with the Welsh government, they spend masses on the South East corner of Wales while the rest rots. Why do nats think politics will change with independence? |
'but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck. '
Spain would object due to their own issues with independance |  |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:10 - Oct 5 with 8505 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 19:56 - Oct 5 by Groo |
'but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck. '
Spain would object due to their own issues with independance |
Wales’ present export of water to England, from the Elan Valley to Birmingham and from Lake Vyrnwy and Tryweryn to Liverpool, could be worth as much as £4.5 billion a year. This is the net transfer of social security payments coming into Wales after our National Insurance contributions are taken into account.
As regards Spain, then worst case Wales gets a special deal. Anyhow Scotland and a united Ireland will get there first.
Wales in the EU is the aim.
Feck this Tory Brexit. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:17 - Oct 5 with 8502 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 17:35 - Oct 5 by Catullus |
With all the problems the UK is enduring leaving the EU, those same things will apply to Welsh independence but probably they will be worse. The UK has only been in the EU 45 years, Wales has been tied to England many times more than that. Economically, culturally, spiritually and geographically we are British.
If we went independent we would then have to apply to join the EU and we'd have to meet the "Copenhagen criteria" which is 35 different sections that have to be met and fulfilled in order, but we can only start doing that if the other member states agree unanimously to us joining. Just one objection and we are stuck.
Joining the EU could literally take years and what do we do in that time? We have no more income from England and no help from the EU, it's much, much more of a gamble than brexit.
By the nature of their posts Kilkenny (definitely) and trampie do seem to loathe the English, at least the right wing English anyway. Though Kilk does get a tad irate with anyone who speaks out in support of the union!
If brexit happened with no deal, then what? Go independent, wait possibly a long time to join the EU to find trading with the UK happened on WTO rules and we are paying tariffs for things bought an hours drive away, possibly have to take a passport to get across the border into England. Though maybe the nats would be happier when all our sporting teams had to join the Welsh league (or would we be allowed to cherry pick) and Glamorgan became extinct. Even with a decent deal that sporting scenario would probably happen if we left the union.
That raw deal we get, it's exactly the same with the Welsh government, they spend masses on the South East corner of Wales while the rest rots. Why do nats think politics will change with independence? |
When you say ‘Wales has been tied to England’ , do you really mean that ‘Cymru was annexed by England ?’
I think thats what you mean ....ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºâ˜ï¸ [Post edited 5 Oct 2018 20:18]
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 08:26 - Oct 6 with 8342 views | peenemunde |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 20:17 - Oct 5 by Kilkennyjack |
When you say ‘Wales has been tied to England’ , do you really mean that ‘Cymru was annexed by England ?’
I think thats what you mean ....ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºâ˜ï¸ [Post edited 5 Oct 2018 20:18]
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Just like the U.K. has been annexed by the Frankenstein project.
Thankfuk for the 17.4 million freedom fighters 👠|  | | |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 09:53 - Oct 6 with 8294 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 08:26 - Oct 6 by peenemunde |
Just like the U.K. has been annexed by the Frankenstein project.
Thankfuk for the 17.4 million freedom fighters 👠|
You do have the support of an army of scared pensioners.
No sure if thats freedom fighters ?
Or simply old people longing for a past that never really existed. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 09:56 - Oct 6 with 8287 views | Highjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 09:53 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
You do have the support of an army of scared pensioners.
No sure if thats freedom fighters ?
Or simply old people longing for a past that never really existed. |
Those scared pensioners fought in wars and worked down mines, they didn’t need to ban clapping for jazz hands in case it triggered anxiety. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 10:07 - Oct 6 with 8264 views | peenemunde |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 09:53 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
You do have the support of an army of scared pensioners.
No sure if thats freedom fighters ?
Or simply old people longing for a past that never really existed. |
And you have the support of people who need “safe space”, just incase someone calls them a name.
P.s half a million Irish shouldn’t have been allowed to vote in the referendum, so therefore the result for leaving is more than 52%.
Rule Britannia 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 [Post edited 6 Oct 2018 10:13]
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 10:16 - Oct 6 with 8261 views | CopperJack |
Okay, so, few points.
Regarding the hatred of the English, pretty obvious from all Welsh Nationalists, i.e, Kilkenny and Trampie. You also see it a lot on social media, for example, those that won't support Team GB because it's too english or whatever - Look at the furore over entering a Team GB football team at the Olympics, despite no evidence suggesting that we'd be forced to give up independent football status. I see so many people blame England for every ill this country faces, when many of our problems are created by the Welsh Assembly, but because it's Welsh, it's meekly accepted.
Also the fact that they refer to anyone who doesn't want Welsh Independence as a 'Brit Nat', conflating the idea of what nationalism is. Nationalism isn't patriotism, or even dual identity. Nationalism is what the nationalistic parties (like Plaid, SNP, UKIP) strive for. This just denigrates the argument and comes across as 'anyone but England'.
As has already been pointed out, it's unlikely that Spain would allow us to join the EU, even if the other 27 did agree, so no, we wouldn't be able to trade as we currently do with England. It's kind of like what the ROI are doing now; angry that Britain voted to leave, but don't see the paradox that they also disliked being ruled by a foreign power.
The EU is not the all-saving factor our liberal press would have you believe, or otherwise, unemployment wouldn't be lower there than in south Wales, which is far more economically deprived. This almost certainly comes from our ties to England. If we 'went it alone', we'd end up like an eastern European country, living on handouts with soaring unemployment. But, at least the hard left nationalists would have the satisfaction that we're no longer tied to England.
Also, regarding the point that 'we don't get aid from England, we pay taxes', the same is true of the EU. The UK is a net contributor, and during the whole time we've been in the EU, Wales has remained one of the poorest regions in the UK, yet we still are told that the EU has created endless wealth here. Bigger cities, like Cardiff, Bristol, London have done very well out of it. The poor areas have stayed poor.
I still don't get why people want to leave the UK, where we get more money from, and have historic ties, to become independent and give all those powers to a supranational government based hundreds of miles away...unless it's because it's an anti-English thing. Happy to be ruled in Brussels, but not Westminster. Seems the long and short of it | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:15 - Oct 6 with 8228 views | Kilkennyjack |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 09:56 - Oct 6 by Highjack |
Those scared pensioners fought in wars and worked down mines, they didn’t need to ban clapping for jazz hands in case it triggered anxiety. |
No they did not.
You would have to be over 90 today to have fought even as a very young soldier in the second world war.
Most of todays pensioners were war time children.
It was their parents generation who fought. | |
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| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:17 - Oct 6 with 8220 views | peenemunde |
| FAO Plaid Cymru Nationalists on 11:15 - Oct 6 by Kilkennyjack |
No they did not.
You would have to be over 90 today to have fought even as a very young soldier in the second world war.
Most of todays pensioners were war time children.
It was their parents generation who fought. |
And where were your parents/ grandparents, probably helping the German navy preparing to attack allied ships. [Post edited 6 Oct 2018 11:20]
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