| so what exactly has changed? 21:42 - May 24 with 9216 views | jacksfullaces |
appears a new young/hungry manager has been signed (in the image of 1-2 predecessors that worked (martinez/rodgers, along with 1-2 that didn't monk/clement) accepting the latter didn't commit to swansealona footie but you know what I mean
players already being signed, this lad from Liverpool, linked with 1-2 others
no statement from the board, other than some vague apology that wasn't really an apology
and jenkins, dineen et al continuing like business as usual
and not much the fans can do, with the trust in theory our only line into the decision makers, but with no line into the decision makers
and lots of anger on this board and among the fans.
anyone else just a little bit frustrated that both a club we care about, and a customer focused business has essentially been allowed to pretend nothing has really happened.
where is the accountability? where?????
cool and calm is great if it hadn't been 3/4 years of decline, it's way past a tweak here or there, that was what jenkins had promised every time after recent failures.
talk about disconnecting with the fan base ... |  | | |  |
| so what exactly has changed? on 22:41 - May 24 with 5507 views | Kilkennyjack |
Great post.
The sooner the club adapts to the reality of our new circumstances the better for all.
Huw must resign as Director of Football.
For the obvious reasons. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| so what exactly has changed? on 02:28 - May 25 with 5344 views | E20Jack |
So what exactly is it you wanted to happen then? Out of interest.
There have been posters on this board who have seen this coming for years, have warned about it and openly suggested ways to combat it. As you know all too well, these posters were called trolls as they dug into the cosy atmosphere enjoyed by all while conveniently ignoring (possibly intentionally) great flaws and failings in the way we were conducting ourselves that was only going to lead one way. Easier to turn a blind eye and cry foul at those suggesting so.
These same people were also extremely vocal in the Trust’s actions and desires to continue to get into bed with the Americans and water down the fan power we all worked so hard to get by accepting a quite frankly astonishingly bad deal in return for, well not much of anything in fact. What happened? That’s right, they were labelled trolls again and abused. Now it seems everyone holds this view and is the desired way forward - when it is quite possibly too late.
It’s all well and good moaning now but when you form part of the group that actively shout down people that have excellent foresight then there isn’t too much sympathy to be had. The above two paragraphs and the lack of early action taken represents the exact main reasons we find ourselves where we are today.
I would hope there is some humility felt among these posters (you know who you are) and that a more open discussion is tolerated around future issues that aren’t hampered and quietened by vendettas and personal dislikes as it is this club you are hurting, nobody else. |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 08:09 - May 25 with 5183 views | swanforthemoney |
It’s brain -dead to say Potter is in the image of Monk and Clement.
Monk and Clement had won the square root of bugger all when they were appointed. Clement had failed to get a well financed Derby County promoted from the championship.
Potter and Reid by contrast had achieved promotions and progressed to the knockout stages of the Europa league where they put up a creditable performance against Arsenal and gave them a scare. All this with the tiny Ostersunds.
Ridiculous to liken Potter to Monk, Clement, Rodgers and Martinez. So wrong-headed it makes Jenkins look smart. |  |
| I stand in the North Stand
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| so what exactly has changed? on 09:25 - May 25 with 5043 views | WarwickHunt |
| so what exactly has changed? on 02:28 - May 25 by E20Jack |
So what exactly is it you wanted to happen then? Out of interest.
There have been posters on this board who have seen this coming for years, have warned about it and openly suggested ways to combat it. As you know all too well, these posters were called trolls as they dug into the cosy atmosphere enjoyed by all while conveniently ignoring (possibly intentionally) great flaws and failings in the way we were conducting ourselves that was only going to lead one way. Easier to turn a blind eye and cry foul at those suggesting so.
These same people were also extremely vocal in the Trust’s actions and desires to continue to get into bed with the Americans and water down the fan power we all worked so hard to get by accepting a quite frankly astonishingly bad deal in return for, well not much of anything in fact. What happened? That’s right, they were labelled trolls again and abused. Now it seems everyone holds this view and is the desired way forward - when it is quite possibly too late.
It’s all well and good moaning now but when you form part of the group that actively shout down people that have excellent foresight then there isn’t too much sympathy to be had. The above two paragraphs and the lack of early action taken represents the exact main reasons we find ourselves where we are today.
I would hope there is some humility felt among these posters (you know who you are) and that a more open discussion is tolerated around future issues that aren’t hampered and quietened by vendettas and personal dislikes as it is this club you are hurting, nobody else. |
Spot on.
Anyone who dared question the shambolic running of the club and the "jobs for the boys" culture was deemed to have "an agenda". |  | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:06 - May 25 with 4952 views | Jinxy |
The thing that has changed is our relegation of course. Major changes were needed, but in my view would never happen while we continued to apply (expensive) sticking plasters over our ever increasing gaping wounds. Now major surgery is required in many places - sellers (go please), buyers (sell please to REAL investors), players, contracts, wage structures, jobs for the boys, the Trust, playing nice football again, etc. etc.. If most/all of these are not completed, then any improvement may well be temporary.
For me, and I know this might be controversial, if we bounced straight back up then probably all will not have been fixed. All these things will take time (2 years at least in my view). In essence, relegation was the firm sharp kick up the backside that seems to be the only language certain people understand, and if "we" don't react and learn from this, then the worst may well yet to come!!
In the interim, and whatever league we are in, we'll still celebrate the wins and bemoan the defeats every bit as much as when we were in the premier league. Little will change for me in that respect, I go to watch the swans and not the opposing team. |  | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:21 - May 25 with 4909 views | moonie |
I ll join the flow.
I'm looking at the liberty now in the mist and feeling just sadness over our decline. It would be a lift to see us eject the eejit as Chairman so we can move on. I cannot see us doing so with this prick i/c.
We need not so much a new broom but an industrial size Dyson | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:42 - May 25 with 4847 views | gadgetuk |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:21 - May 25 by moonie |
I ll join the flow.
I'm looking at the liberty now in the mist and feeling just sadness over our decline. It would be a lift to see us eject the eejit as Chairman so we can move on. I cannot see us doing so with this prick i/c.
We need not so much a new broom but an industrial size Dyson |
Personally I would go with a Flamethrower ;-) | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:48 - May 25 with 4820 views | Fireboy2 |
| so what exactly has changed? on 10:06 - May 25 by Jinxy |
The thing that has changed is our relegation of course. Major changes were needed, but in my view would never happen while we continued to apply (expensive) sticking plasters over our ever increasing gaping wounds. Now major surgery is required in many places - sellers (go please), buyers (sell please to REAL investors), players, contracts, wage structures, jobs for the boys, the Trust, playing nice football again, etc. etc.. If most/all of these are not completed, then any improvement may well be temporary.
For me, and I know this might be controversial, if we bounced straight back up then probably all will not have been fixed. All these things will take time (2 years at least in my view). In essence, relegation was the firm sharp kick up the backside that seems to be the only language certain people understand, and if "we" don't react and learn from this, then the worst may well yet to come!!
In the interim, and whatever league we are in, we'll still celebrate the wins and bemoan the defeats every bit as much as when we were in the premier league. Little will change for me in that respect, I go to watch the swans and not the opposing team. |
Great post,absolutely spot on |  | | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:03 - May 25 with 4777 views | jacksfullaces |
| so what exactly has changed? on 08:09 - May 25 by swanforthemoney |
It’s brain -dead to say Potter is in the image of Monk and Clement.
Monk and Clement had won the square root of bugger all when they were appointed. Clement had failed to get a well financed Derby County promoted from the championship.
Potter and Reid by contrast had achieved promotions and progressed to the knockout stages of the Europa league where they put up a creditable performance against Arsenal and gave them a scare. All this with the tiny Ostersunds.
Ridiculous to liken Potter to Monk, Clement, Rodgers and Martinez. So wrong-headed it makes Jenkins look smart. |
ok, thanks for that, you rate Potter then, be great to think that the amount of differentiation you point to was the reason for his appointment. Based on recent hit and hope you might understand my cynicism and sweeping statement :) | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:04 - May 25 with 4775 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 02:28 - May 25 by E20Jack |
So what exactly is it you wanted to happen then? Out of interest.
There have been posters on this board who have seen this coming for years, have warned about it and openly suggested ways to combat it. As you know all too well, these posters were called trolls as they dug into the cosy atmosphere enjoyed by all while conveniently ignoring (possibly intentionally) great flaws and failings in the way we were conducting ourselves that was only going to lead one way. Easier to turn a blind eye and cry foul at those suggesting so.
These same people were also extremely vocal in the Trust’s actions and desires to continue to get into bed with the Americans and water down the fan power we all worked so hard to get by accepting a quite frankly astonishingly bad deal in return for, well not much of anything in fact. What happened? That’s right, they were labelled trolls again and abused. Now it seems everyone holds this view and is the desired way forward - when it is quite possibly too late.
It’s all well and good moaning now but when you form part of the group that actively shout down people that have excellent foresight then there isn’t too much sympathy to be had. The above two paragraphs and the lack of early action taken represents the exact main reasons we find ourselves where we are today.
I would hope there is some humility felt among these posters (you know who you are) and that a more open discussion is tolerated around future issues that aren’t hampered and quietened by vendettas and personal dislikes as it is this club you are hurting, nobody else. |
You're taking liberties with the truth as usual, Dim.
For the record you didn't get on board with any substantive criticism of anything in any of your past guises until the Trust vote last year.
And by that time key indicators of Planet Swans orthodoxy like Lisa and Monmouth had swung the other way. Meanwhile the Saviour was already well on his way to losing his mind and had started to back Jenkins, initially via complete radio silence on the topic of the Trust settlement. |  |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:05 - May 25 with 4771 views | E20Jack |
Again, I don’t understand what “a real investor” is.
What is it people want exactly? What do they expect will happen when the club is sold, and then sold again, and again and again... so on and so forth. Do you really think people will want to take over the club and then gift it shed loads of money? It’s cloud cuckoo land talk.
Invest is a funny word. One thrown about by football fans who don’t really understand the term. Investment means a loan, do you really want people owning the club writing their own cheques to try and improve the club under the proviso that of it fails they hold the club accountable for that spend? I certainly don’t.
So that question is extended from the humble fan to the Trust. Surely the only way to stop this continuous sales to venture capitalists is by owning a sufficient share in the club to which it can veto decisions and stop potential dilution and debt burden to the club.
So then prey tell, why on earth is it being tolerated where there are Trust board members who actively want to scupper this for ever more - for a small meaningless amount of money, and why on earth do we have fans that actually voted for it?
What we need is a united fanbase and Trust that actually represents those views. then and only then will we get anywhere. At the moment all this moaning, all this infighting, all this lack of foresight or plan and all this pie on sky talk of “investment” when not really understanding its implications is just awful to read on here weekly.
Yes the club needs a shake up, but so do the fans. [Post edited 25 May 2018 11:11]
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:09 - May 25 with 4755 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:04 - May 25 by Shaky |
You're taking liberties with the truth as usual, Dim.
For the record you didn't get on board with any substantive criticism of anything in any of your past guises until the Trust vote last year.
And by that time key indicators of Planet Swans orthodoxy like Lisa and Monmouth had swung the other way. Meanwhile the Saviour was already well on his way to losing his mind and had started to back Jenkins, initially via complete radio silence on the topic of the Trust settlement. |
And here we go instantly with the usual rubbish attempting to quieter anyone who raises their head above the parapet.
By all means Shaky, if you actually feel capable of holding a proper conversation without your usual turgid nonsense then you are more than welcome. If you wish to continue in the vein you have started in your opening gambit, where your raison d’être seems to be throwing your toys out about anything the Res or I say, then save us all some time and stop. [Post edited 25 May 2018 11:12]
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:12 - May 25 with 4739 views | jacksfullaces |
a transparent and open review, with some clear recommendations would be a great start.
one form of trolling is derailing threads through pedantry, and not understanding the difference between having a conversation and needing to win a conversation. #socialskills
another could be relentless aggression and personal abuse. #socialskills
both easily avoided by disengagement and understanding that a message board isn't the real world.
back on topic, look what happened there :)
honesty and transparency would be my preferred start, not a couple of media soundbites.
but that all said, it's only football so beyond the surreal world of the message board I will be shouting for the swans (in hope or anticipation we shall see) when the new season starts. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:17 - May 25 with 4726 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:12 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
a transparent and open review, with some clear recommendations would be a great start.
one form of trolling is derailing threads through pedantry, and not understanding the difference between having a conversation and needing to win a conversation. #socialskills
another could be relentless aggression and personal abuse. #socialskills
both easily avoided by disengagement and understanding that a message board isn't the real world.
back on topic, look what happened there :)
honesty and transparency would be my preferred start, not a couple of media soundbites.
but that all said, it's only football so beyond the surreal world of the message board I will be shouting for the swans (in hope or anticipation we shall see) when the new season starts. |
So anyone who disagrees with you or who does not hold the opinion of the masses is a troll?
Do you actually know what one is? It is someone who posts something deliberately shocking, offensive or threatening in order to provoke an emotional response.
A troll is not someone that holds an opinion you find hard to disagree with.
What your obsession is with this I do not know. But the sooner open discussion is allowed and welcomed on this board the better, as many seem to agree. Guess they are all trolls too.
This could have all been potentially avoided if everyone was singing off the same hymn sheet, instead the infighting and shouting down and cyber bullying has left us about 2 years behind in terms of action, and we are still no closer to being in unison in our aims. [Post edited 25 May 2018 11:19]
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:17 - May 25 with 4724 views | Jinxy |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:05 - May 25 by E20Jack |
Again, I don’t understand what “a real investor” is.
What is it people want exactly? What do they expect will happen when the club is sold, and then sold again, and again and again... so on and so forth. Do you really think people will want to take over the club and then gift it shed loads of money? It’s cloud cuckoo land talk.
Invest is a funny word. One thrown about by football fans who don’t really understand the term. Investment means a loan, do you really want people owning the club writing their own cheques to try and improve the club under the proviso that of it fails they hold the club accountable for that spend? I certainly don’t.
So that question is extended from the humble fan to the Trust. Surely the only way to stop this continuous sales to venture capitalists is by owning a sufficient share in the club to which it can veto decisions and stop potential dilution and debt burden to the club.
So then prey tell, why on earth is it being tolerated where there are Trust board members who actively want to scupper this for ever more - for a small meaningless amount of money, and why on earth do we have fans that actually voted for it?
What we need is a united fanbase and Trust that actually represents those views. then and only then will we get anywhere. At the moment all this moaning, all this infighting, all this lack of foresight or plan and all this pie on sky talk of “investment” when not really understanding its implications is just awful to read on here weekly.
Yes the club needs a shake up, but so do the fans. [Post edited 25 May 2018 11:11]
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I'm presuming you are referring to my terminology - apologies if not!
What I really mean is that it'd be nice if we had owners that have a positive vision for the long term future of the club, and to establish a legacy (admittedly for their selfish selves I suppose) that means more than just trying to get short term financial returns for a particular "investment".
I'm prepared to be shot down, because I don't know the precise details, but an "investor" along the lines of Jack Walker, and what he tried to achieve for Blackburn. Yes, I know how that ended but I understand his intentions were sound - made his millions elsewhere and wanted to put back in without necessarily getting a financial return.
It is possible to make an investment in other than monetary terms, that is what I mean. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:21 - May 25 with 4697 views | Jacket |
Relegation, that's what's happened. We're not in the same League anymore. That changes everything. Every single thing. We used to write off many previous targets as a "Championship signing", well that's where we're playing now, so those inferior players are now ones that could do a job for us. Also, for whatever reason it's far easier to recruit players here. In the Premier it wasn't just us that were getting just one or two players through the door, our two fellow relegationees also failed to strengthen. Stoke were making big signings in 2016 but have since found it hard to get any decent signings over the line whilst losing one of their best players. West Ham, like us, have had a litany of expensive flops. I can hardly think of a decent signing they've made since Payet despite spunking good money after bad. Since the big bucks came in with the new TV deal, bottom half clubs have struggled to get their targets and when they have been successful the amount of expensive flops has sky-rocketed. Just look at Everton for expensive flops. I can't tell you what's behind this, I have no idea.
You mention young and hungry managers, but you can't compare the successful BR and RM with GM and PC. PC started his coaching under the anti-football of Mourinho, his reaction when someone ran with the ball was "don't lose it", possession football was the last thing he wanted, when you're on the ball that's when you make mistakes. Let the other team have the ball, let them make the mistakes - that's the Clement vision. Don't take risks, that's when you make mistakes, but once Siggy left, who was going to punish his mistakes? That's where his gameplan fell on its arse.
The lack of risk taking of GM, FG, PC and CC is what has made these past 3 seasons so poor and also made it disgusting to watch, but with the fear of the financial mess of relegation over our heads this cautious approach is hardly surprising. Relegation gives a chance to forget all that shite for the time being and allows us to appoint a coach who doesn't hold those cautious views and is prepared to play a bit more freely and also allows us to bring the players needed to play that style and start to rebuild.
Will it work, who knows? But in answer to the question. What's changed? Relegation has given us a chance to start on a new page, and hopefully that will go right to the top, starting with the DoF. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:22 - May 25 with 4691 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:17 - May 25 by Jinxy |
I'm presuming you are referring to my terminology - apologies if not!
What I really mean is that it'd be nice if we had owners that have a positive vision for the long term future of the club, and to establish a legacy (admittedly for their selfish selves I suppose) that means more than just trying to get short term financial returns for a particular "investment".
I'm prepared to be shot down, because I don't know the precise details, but an "investor" along the lines of Jack Walker, and what he tried to achieve for Blackburn. Yes, I know how that ended but I understand his intentions were sound - made his millions elsewhere and wanted to put back in without necessarily getting a financial return.
It is possible to make an investment in other than monetary terms, that is what I mean. |
It won’t happen. There is literally no chance of us being taken over my someone who wishes to pump money into us with no expected return or strings attached.
We have to be realistic, we have to realise where we are here and we must get this clear vision as a fanbase. We need to decide what we want, where we see our future and how we think we can achieve that.
Ousting everyone and hoping for a sugar daddy seems like a terrible way to go about it. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:28 - May 25 with 4661 views | jacksfullaces |
Idealistically (I know)
an honest/open/objective (external?) SWOT analysis of the last few years be a great start.
then a clear vision, with fans/trust involvement would be great.
this would be the time for this, but instead we appear to have tinkering around the edges. we do have an opportunity to be a lot more thoughtful now the dollar signs of the premier league mean bit less short termism.
but am sensing a bit more short termism - perhaps something will happen over the next few weeks, but reports of Dineen fire fighting on Swansea Sound suggests not. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:28 - May 25 with 4661 views | Jinxy |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:22 - May 25 by E20Jack |
It won’t happen. There is literally no chance of us being taken over my someone who wishes to pump money into us with no expected return or strings attached.
We have to be realistic, we have to realise where we are here and we must get this clear vision as a fanbase. We need to decide what we want, where we see our future and how we think we can achieve that.
Ousting everyone and hoping for a sugar daddy seems like a terrible way to go about it. |
...or sugar mummy? Oprah claims to be a Swans fan mind! Ah, we can all dream eh. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:33 - May 25 with 4630 views | jacksfullaces |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:21 - May 25 by Jacket |
Relegation, that's what's happened. We're not in the same League anymore. That changes everything. Every single thing. We used to write off many previous targets as a "Championship signing", well that's where we're playing now, so those inferior players are now ones that could do a job for us. Also, for whatever reason it's far easier to recruit players here. In the Premier it wasn't just us that were getting just one or two players through the door, our two fellow relegationees also failed to strengthen. Stoke were making big signings in 2016 but have since found it hard to get any decent signings over the line whilst losing one of their best players. West Ham, like us, have had a litany of expensive flops. I can hardly think of a decent signing they've made since Payet despite spunking good money after bad. Since the big bucks came in with the new TV deal, bottom half clubs have struggled to get their targets and when they have been successful the amount of expensive flops has sky-rocketed. Just look at Everton for expensive flops. I can't tell you what's behind this, I have no idea.
You mention young and hungry managers, but you can't compare the successful BR and RM with GM and PC. PC started his coaching under the anti-football of Mourinho, his reaction when someone ran with the ball was "don't lose it", possession football was the last thing he wanted, when you're on the ball that's when you make mistakes. Let the other team have the ball, let them make the mistakes - that's the Clement vision. Don't take risks, that's when you make mistakes, but once Siggy left, who was going to punish his mistakes? That's where his gameplan fell on its arse.
The lack of risk taking of GM, FG, PC and CC is what has made these past 3 seasons so poor and also made it disgusting to watch, but with the fear of the financial mess of relegation over our heads this cautious approach is hardly surprising. Relegation gives a chance to forget all that shite for the time being and allows us to appoint a coach who doesn't hold those cautious views and is prepared to play a bit more freely and also allows us to bring the players needed to play that style and start to rebuild.
Will it work, who knows? But in answer to the question. What's changed? Relegation has given us a chance to start on a new page, and hopefully that will go right to the top, starting with the DoF. |
agree with most of that, and I also hope that the Potter appointment is truly visionary.
although assuming that the pure blueprint for success from a few years back (agreed that Clement/Monk were deviations in style/strategy - was only the hungry bit I was going for there) isn't necessarily the answer either - or deciding it so quickly would be my worry. by the same people that have made a host of other poor decisions. | | | |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:33 - May 25 with 4628 views | Shaky |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:28 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
Idealistically (I know)
an honest/open/objective (external?) SWOT analysis of the last few years be a great start.
then a clear vision, with fans/trust involvement would be great.
this would be the time for this, but instead we appear to have tinkering around the edges. we do have an opportunity to be a lot more thoughtful now the dollar signs of the premier league mean bit less short termism.
but am sensing a bit more short termism - perhaps something will happen over the next few weeks, but reports of Dineen fire fighting on Swansea Sound suggests not. |
I agree with you, but there is a time for sewing and time for reaping.
Right now I see the clear priority as to slash costs, otherwise the future of the club is at serious risk.
Once the future is hopefully safeguarded it then becomes time to start thinking strategically. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:35 - May 25 with 4614 views | E20Jack |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:28 - May 25 by jacksfullaces |
Idealistically (I know)
an honest/open/objective (external?) SWOT analysis of the last few years be a great start.
then a clear vision, with fans/trust involvement would be great.
this would be the time for this, but instead we appear to have tinkering around the edges. we do have an opportunity to be a lot more thoughtful now the dollar signs of the premier league mean bit less short termism.
but am sensing a bit more short termism - perhaps something will happen over the next few weeks, but reports of Dineen fire fighting on Swansea Sound suggests not. |
Carried out by who? To what end?
There have been awful mistakes made at the club and some downright negligent attitudes, the only people that could carry out such an analysis are the ones guilty of the above. So on short, it won’t happen.
The key to this football club and it’s future is the Trust, fighting against the owners is futile as it will be a continuous exercise. Oust these guys, they sell to the next and you start the fight again. We need to get a foothold in the club as fans and force change not just hope for it as it simply won’t come. | |
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| so what exactly has changed? on 11:36 - May 25 with 4602 views | jacksfullaces |
| so what exactly has changed? on 11:33 - May 25 by Shaky |
I agree with you, but there is a time for sewing and time for reaping.
Right now I see the clear priority as to slash costs, otherwise the future of the club is at serious risk.
Once the future is hopefully safeguarded it then becomes time to start thinking strategically. |
in theory then both approaches could me merged. financial short term recalibrating combined with a longer term strategic plan. | | | |
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