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Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:20 - Jun 17 by dailew
There's always been a fair proportion of British middle-class and lefties in particular who hate the British working class.
Yeah we are nothing but a nation of snobs. Lots of people are never happy unless they can sneer down their noses at someone else.
Only immigrants should work in restaurants, care homes and car washes is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here and that includes the bollocks I've posted over the years.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:14 - Jun 17 by Highjack
You have 300 people applying for this one in your link, 3000 turning up to a recruitment day at Aston Martin. It's happening all over the country, but the official statistics say we have full employment, and there's an airy, vague, arrogant assumption that only immigrants will do these jobs and being in the EU is somehow essential to these jobs getting done.
Aston Martin factory is 18 miles from the steel works. I wonder if the fact that the steel works are closing and thousands may be without work had anything to do with it?
Also, you are assuming that those 300 applicants from the link you gave trying forjobs at the Premier Inn are currently unemployed.
Even at 1% unemployment, you would still get lots of people applying for jobs all the time.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:15 - Jun 17 with 2062 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:44 - Jun 17 by johnlangy
I should have explained more expansively. Two points.
My point about the Romanians was that not all these jobs are low waged so it's surprising that they can't get British people to do the work.
And about us depending more on them. The Leavers tell us all the time that the EU will be desperate for us to do a deal because they export more to us than we do to them.
My way of looking at it is this. There are 3 million jobs dependant on our trade with the EU and there are 5 million EU jobs dependant on their trade with us because they sell us more than we do them.
When our UK rep is at the negotiating table he will be looking to get a deal to safeguard those 3 million jobs. EACH of the 27 now on the other side will be looking to safeguard roughly 200,000 jobs in their country. They will know that if they don't do a deal their country will suffer a big blow but at the same time the UK will suffer a devastating blow so they will have the upper hand. I know it won't be just one deal, that it'll be many but the logic is the same.
1) The author of the oft quoted academic report in regards to 3 million Uk jobs relying on trade with the EU ( Prof Ian Banks) has in the past been so enraged at the misuse of his report that he has repeatedly pointed out that his report quite clearly says that roughly 3 million UK jobs are involved with trade with countries in the EU.
He repeatedly points out that his report makes quite clear that these jobs are NOT DEPENDENT ON THE UKs MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU and is furious that the tenet of his report has been hijacked by those advocating continued membership.
2) You do realise exactly why prices for food and goods in massive supermarket chains are cheaper than those of little corner shop don't you?
It's because of the massive buying power of the major supermarket chains means that suppliers are falling over themselves to sell to those chains and supply their goods at far cheaper wholesale prices to those given to small local corner shops.
So the thought that European businessmen and business women in EU countries are somehow going to allow their respective governments block off their biggest consumer market out of some sort of bizarre fit of pique is so laughable that I'm amazed that you and others even have the cheek to suggest it.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:09 - Jun 17 with 1977 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:17 - Jun 17 by BarrySwan
1) The author of the oft quoted academic report in regards to 3 million Uk jobs relying on trade with the EU ( Prof Ian Banks) has in the past been so enraged at the misuse of his report that he has repeatedly pointed out that his report quite clearly says that roughly 3 million UK jobs are involved with trade with countries in the EU.
He repeatedly points out that his report makes quite clear that these jobs are NOT DEPENDENT ON THE UKs MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU and is furious that the tenet of his report has been hijacked by those advocating continued membership.
2) You do realise exactly why prices for food and goods in massive supermarket chains are cheaper than those of little corner shop don't you?
It's because of the massive buying power of the major supermarket chains means that suppliers are falling over themselves to sell to those chains and supply their goods at far cheaper wholesale prices to those given to small local corner shops.
So the thought that European businessmen and business women in EU countries are somehow going to allow their respective governments block off their biggest consumer market out of some sort of bizarre fit of pique is so laughable that I'm amazed that you and others even have the cheek to suggest it.
Barry, I didn't say they'd block off their biggest consumer market. I said they'd be in a stronger position than the UK in the new negotiations that happen. A deal would definitely be struck but they would have more of a say in the terms of that deal than the UK would.
At the moment our membership allows us unfettered access to EU markets. If we left and were not making our contributions as a member do you think they would just allow us access as now ? Or do you agree that there would be tariffs on our goods the level of which would be decided by the 27 ?
The answers are no and yes. Imagine if they did give us free access. How long would it be before another EU country said, we don't like this bit of our membership. Can we stop our contributions but still have free access like the UK ?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:18 - Jun 17 with 1966 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:17 - Jun 17 by BarrySwan
1) The author of the oft quoted academic report in regards to 3 million Uk jobs relying on trade with the EU ( Prof Ian Banks) has in the past been so enraged at the misuse of his report that he has repeatedly pointed out that his report quite clearly says that roughly 3 million UK jobs are involved with trade with countries in the EU.
He repeatedly points out that his report makes quite clear that these jobs are NOT DEPENDENT ON THE UKs MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU and is furious that the tenet of his report has been hijacked by those advocating continued membership.
2) You do realise exactly why prices for food and goods in massive supermarket chains are cheaper than those of little corner shop don't you?
It's because of the massive buying power of the major supermarket chains means that suppliers are falling over themselves to sell to those chains and supply their goods at far cheaper wholesale prices to those given to small local corner shops.
So the thought that European businessmen and business women in EU countries are somehow going to allow their respective governments block off their biggest consumer market out of some sort of bizarre fit of pique is so laughable that I'm amazed that you and others even have the cheek to suggest it.
And when I said those jobs are dependant maybe I should have said partly dependant or linked.
If we aren't able to export the same amount as now it follows that some jobs will go. The only thing open to question is how many.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:26 - Jun 17 with 1953 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:09 - Jun 17 by johnlangy
Barry, I didn't say they'd block off their biggest consumer market. I said they'd be in a stronger position than the UK in the new negotiations that happen. A deal would definitely be struck but they would have more of a say in the terms of that deal than the UK would.
At the moment our membership allows us unfettered access to EU markets. If we left and were not making our contributions as a member do you think they would just allow us access as now ? Or do you agree that there would be tariffs on our goods the level of which would be decided by the 27 ?
The answers are no and yes. Imagine if they did give us free access. How long would it be before another EU country said, we don't like this bit of our membership. Can we stop our contributions but still have free access like the UK ?
Look at the free trade deal between the EU and Singapore. Eliminates tariffs, barriers and other non-technical inhibitors to free trade progressively over 5 years.
The terms were agreed a number of years ago, but now delayed by EU red tape as the EC referred it to the ECJ to ensure they were allowed to sign it!
So, to your second question, the EU have in principle agreed it with a country in South East Asia but not their potentially largest trading partner on the doorstep?
Now, I agree that political factors may get in the way for Brexit. The economic case is unarguable. So, noone really knows who will win in the argument between the politicians and the captains of industry. But I do know that one lobbies the other pretty well to get what they want.
And think how quickly the UK could agree such a deal with Singapore (and therefore by extension ASEAN as Singapore are in the ASEAN free trade area) were it to Brexit. It would probably be done before the EU one!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:55 - Jun 17 with 1908 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:26 - Jun 17 by jackonicko
Look at the free trade deal between the EU and Singapore. Eliminates tariffs, barriers and other non-technical inhibitors to free trade progressively over 5 years.
The terms were agreed a number of years ago, but now delayed by EU red tape as the EC referred it to the ECJ to ensure they were allowed to sign it!
So, to your second question, the EU have in principle agreed it with a country in South East Asia but not their potentially largest trading partner on the doorstep?
Now, I agree that political factors may get in the way for Brexit. The economic case is unarguable. So, noone really knows who will win in the argument between the politicians and the captains of industry. But I do know that one lobbies the other pretty well to get what they want.
And think how quickly the UK could agree such a deal with Singapore (and therefore by extension ASEAN as Singapore are in the ASEAN free trade area) were it to Brexit. It would probably be done before the EU one!
Wouldn't the EU have to try and be publicly punitive, pour encourager les autres?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:33 - Jun 17 by Highjack
Yeah we are nothing but a nation of snobs. Lots of people are never happy unless they can sneer down their noses at someone else.
Only immigrants should work in restaurants, care homes and car washes is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here and that includes the bollocks I've posted over the years.
No one has said that as far as I can see?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:15 - Jun 17 with 1893 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:31 - Jun 16 by A_Fans_Dad
The respone was to Nice to Michu who had responded to Highjack who said "we have hundreds of thousands if not millions of unemployed people already here" Nice to Michu's answer suggests that Highjack was wrong, when Highjack was right, 1.67Million is a lot of thousands and more than 1 million. 5% may be better than the EU's average of 8.8% but compared to many countries it is not that good.
The Full Employment number can be set by any country between 0 and 5% or even more. So what is "full employment" for one country may not be considered full emplyment by another. "So has genuine full employment ever been achieved in the post industrial world? "Of course we've had it," says the economist Lord Skidelsky. "Between 1950 and 1973 unemployment averaged 2% and was always well under one million."" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15276765 Note, used to be 2%, well under 1 million.
I said 'in economic terms'.
Full employment is an economic concept, not a random percentage chosen for the sake of it.
Average UK wage inflation at the moment demonstrate that we are not that far off.
Where we have a horrible problem in the UK is the mismatch between job opportunities and people.
There are huge numbers of jobs available in London for example, but no one to fill them, so we bring in immigrants for example to work in bars, restaurants etc etc. Elsewhere there are people desperate for work but with no jobs or very few jobs.
Successive governments have been far too South East centric (the same thing is happening in Wales as well). It's very bad news.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:45 - Jun 17 with 1871 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:15 - Jun 17 by londonlisa2001
I agree with all of that.
That's why, as I said, the only way we can make sure that some jobs are filled by people here rather than immigrants is reform of the welfare system.
At the moment, there are plenty of people setting up 'businesses' and receiving tax credits rather than being employed.
Bollox !! Can't even get a decent argument on here anymore.
You're dead right about the welfare system. A total mess.
Over 600 different types of benefits and levels available.
Had sympathy with Brown when he created the tax credits as his motives were right in trying to incentivise people to work but it's done the exact opposite.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:45 - Jun 17 by dailew
Bollox !! Can't even get a decent argument on here anymore.
You're dead right about the welfare system. A total mess.
Over 600 different types of benefits and levels available.
Had sympathy with Brown when he created the tax credits as his motives were right in trying to incentivise people to work but it's done the exact opposite.
He could never do anything simple.
The only thing the tax credit system does is enables big companies to pay people crap and make more profits to be shared out in dividends. Quite why any of us have to subsidise Tesco I don't know.
The increase in minimum wage is a step, but minimum wage needs to be an actual living wage (not just a minimum wage renamed for the sake of it) and it needs to be enforced.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:00 - Jun 17 with 1851 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:49 - Jun 17 by londonlisa2001
The only thing the tax credit system does is enables big companies to pay people crap and make more profits to be shared out in dividends. Quite why any of us have to subsidise Tesco I don't know.
The increase in minimum wage is a step, but minimum wage needs to be an actual living wage (not just a minimum wage renamed for the sake of it) and it needs to be enforced.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:09 - Jun 17 by johnlangy
Barry, I didn't say they'd block off their biggest consumer market. I said they'd be in a stronger position than the UK in the new negotiations that happen. A deal would definitely be struck but they would have more of a say in the terms of that deal than the UK would.
At the moment our membership allows us unfettered access to EU markets. If we left and were not making our contributions as a member do you think they would just allow us access as now ? Or do you agree that there would be tariffs on our goods the level of which would be decided by the 27 ?
The answers are no and yes. Imagine if they did give us free access. How long would it be before another EU country said, we don't like this bit of our membership. Can we stop our contributions but still have free access like the UK ?
Of course there won't be tariffs on our goods.
1) Never mentioned by the Remainians is that the infamous Lisbon treaty has enshrined in EU law a requirement to negotiate free trade deals with other countries.
2) Tongue in cheek perhaps but as Britain is the EU blocs biggest market and we have a near £60 bn annual trading deficit with EU countries then tariffs imposed on us by the EU would result in us imposing similar level tariffs on EU imports.
Given the huge imbalance of imports and exports in EU countries favour we'd make a fortune in tariff payments each month wouldn't we?
Also if we imposed reciprocal tariffs on goods from the EU which made goods more expensive to purchase here then this would encourage British industry to step up to the mark to produce more home produced goods to sell to UK consumers instead at competitive prices.
There will be no tariffs even the EU nutters aren't so mad as to damage their own trade with their single largest market.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:04 - Jun 17 with 1795 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:28 - Jun 17 by londonlisa2001
I said 'in economic terms'.
Full employment is an economic concept, not a random percentage chosen for the sake of it.
Average UK wage inflation at the moment demonstrate that we are not that far off.
Where we have a horrible problem in the UK is the mismatch between job opportunities and people.
There are huge numbers of jobs available in London for example, but no one to fill them, so we bring in immigrants for example to work in bars, restaurants etc etc. Elsewhere there are people desperate for work but with no jobs or very few jobs.
Successive governments have been far too South East centric (the same thing is happening in Wales as well). It's very bad news.
Did you even bother to read the link, the 2% was not some "random percentage chosen for the sake of it", it was from the Economist (you know one of those people you believe) Lord Skidelsky who said it. From the article in 1955 unemployment was 1%. July 1955 - 215,800 (1%) July 1965 - 309,800 (1.3%) July 1975 - 1,193,000 (4.6%) July 1985 - 3,139,000 (11.3%) July 1995 - 2,439,000 (8.6%) July 2005 - 1,423,000 (4.7%) July 2011 - 2,566,000 (8.1%) So why would anyone think that 5% is nearly full employment for the UK?
I can agree with you on one thing and that is that is "Successive governments have been far too South East centric". Just as Wales is Cardiff-centric.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 18:12]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:30 - Jun 17 with 1775 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:04 - Jun 17 by A_Fans_Dad
Did you even bother to read the link, the 2% was not some "random percentage chosen for the sake of it", it was from the Economist (you know one of those people you believe) Lord Skidelsky who said it. From the article in 1955 unemployment was 1%. July 1955 - 215,800 (1%) July 1965 - 309,800 (1.3%) July 1975 - 1,193,000 (4.6%) July 1985 - 3,139,000 (11.3%) July 1995 - 2,439,000 (8.6%) July 2005 - 1,423,000 (4.7%) July 2011 - 2,566,000 (8.1%) So why would anyone think that 5% is nearly full employment for the UK?
I can agree with you on one thing and that is that is "Successive governments have been far too South East centric". Just as Wales is Cardiff-centric.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 18:12]
I didn't say that 2% was random.
You stated 'the rate of full employment can be set by any country between 0% and 5%'' - I was pointing out it's not a random decision to set it, it's an economic concept. The fact that it used to be 2% (which is actually not what he said by the way - he used it as a example of a time of full employment) doesn't mean that it remains as such. It varies according to other economic factors.
At present it is estimated for the UK as somewhere around the 5% mark. The U.S. currently estimates theirs to be around 5.5% - at times, it has been different.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 18:31]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:32 - Jun 17 with 1773 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:46 - Jun 17 by BarrySwan
Of course there won't be tariffs on our goods.
1) Never mentioned by the Remainians is that the infamous Lisbon treaty has enshrined in EU law a requirement to negotiate free trade deals with other countries.
2) Tongue in cheek perhaps but as Britain is the EU blocs biggest market and we have a near £60 bn annual trading deficit with EU countries then tariffs imposed on us by the EU would result in us imposing similar level tariffs on EU imports.
Given the huge imbalance of imports and exports in EU countries favour we'd make a fortune in tariff payments each month wouldn't we?
Also if we imposed reciprocal tariffs on goods from the EU which made goods more expensive to purchase here then this would encourage British industry to step up to the mark to produce more home produced goods to sell to UK consumers instead at competitive prices.
There will be no tariffs even the EU nutters aren't so mad as to damage their own trade with their single largest market.
I think your underestimating the potential reaction from EU members. The EU will not allow a member to leave and continue to receive all the benefits without any obligations associated with being a member. They couldn't afford to do that as it would set a precedent. A simple analogy would be that you're a member of a club where you can buy a cheap pint. Club requires that you help out with the cleaning once a month and that some of your subscription goes to a reduced rate of membership for members who are unable to pay the full membership fees. Bollocks to that you say, I put so much money over the bar you need me.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:32 - Jun 17 by longlostjack
I think your underestimating the potential reaction from EU members. The EU will not allow a member to leave and continue to receive all the benefits without any obligations associated with being a member. They couldn't afford to do that as it would set a precedent. A simple analogy would be that you're a member of a club where you can buy a cheap pint. Club requires that you help out with the cleaning once a month and that some of your subscription goes to a reduced rate of membership for members who are unable to pay the full membership fees. Bollocks to that you say, I put so much money over the bar you need me.
Thank you llj.
Barry, at the moment we pay £9 billion in (allowing for the money we get back). If we stop paying that do you seriously believe they'll just say never mind, carry on as you were.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:52 - Jun 17 with 1760 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:32 - Jun 17 by longlostjack
I think your underestimating the potential reaction from EU members. The EU will not allow a member to leave and continue to receive all the benefits without any obligations associated with being a member. They couldn't afford to do that as it would set a precedent. A simple analogy would be that you're a member of a club where you can buy a cheap pint. Club requires that you help out with the cleaning once a month and that some of your subscription goes to a reduced rate of membership for members who are unable to pay the full membership fees. Bollocks to that you say, I put so much money over the bar you need me.
Maybe you are over estimating the potential reaction of EU membership, anyway! as I've said earlier, the EU is a sinking ship, lets get off it before we drown in the sea of directives.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:30 - Jun 17 by londonlisa2001
I didn't say that 2% was random.
You stated 'the rate of full employment can be set by any country between 0% and 5%'' - I was pointing out it's not a random decision to set it, it's an economic concept. The fact that it used to be 2% (which is actually not what he said by the way - he used it as a example of a time of full employment) doesn't mean that it remains as such. It varies according to other economic factors.
At present it is estimated for the UK as somewhere around the 5% mark. The U.S. currently estimates theirs to be around 5.5% - at times, it has been different.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 18:31]
So as the USA is currently doing better than their full employment value at 4.7% they must have their calculation wrong to be that much better. It doesn't appear to be very good as they have beaten it for almost a whole year now and in fact before 2008 it was below 5.5 for years. Must mean that it is a pretty meaningless statistic don't you think, certainly to people who are unemployed and want a job?
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 19:55]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:12 - Jun 17 with 1703 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:53 - Jun 17 by A_Fans_Dad
So as the USA is currently doing better than their full employment value at 4.7% they must have their calculation wrong to be that much better. It doesn't appear to be very good as they have beaten it for almost a whole year now and in fact before 2008 it was below 5.5 for years. Must mean that it is a pretty meaningless statistic don't you think, certainly to people who are unemployed and want a job?
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 19:55]
No, you can have 'better' than full employment.
Doesn't mean the calculation is wrong, it means that they have gone past what is described as the economic sweet spot and so they will see wage inflation. The concept is one of supply and demand and creation of wage stability and maintenance. There are a number of signs of wage inflation in the U.S. at the moment, although the Fed believe that there is some slack in the system being caused by people who are working part time but would like to work full time (hence them holding interest rates at the moment).
As I have said, the issue with unemployment in this country is the mismatch between jobs and people both in location and skills / types of jobs available.
I have also said on this thread that the number of jobs that are either poorly paid, or zero hour contracts or both are excessive. Don't know anymore what point you are trying to make other than to catch me out or argue for the sake of it, so I'm out.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:05 - Jun 17 with 1670 views
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