| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! 16:05 - Nov 23 with 7615 views | Lblock |
A week ago I got a parking fine through the post from a company called Civil Enforcement Ltd for overstaying at a car park which had that day apparently changed the rules meaning you could only wait there 15 minutes.
On that occasion I am convinced there was insufficient signage due to poor lighting and us regular users were not warned.
It's a £60 if you pay within 14 days, £100 if you dont job and the ticket was issued using CCTV and ANPR technology. The Charge Notice looked a bit amateurish, had no details of how to appeal, little in the way of contact details and felt dodgy to me so I googled it and, whilst the company exists, I was drawn to various internet advice as to how to proceed.
It seems as the ticket was not issued by the police or local council I may be well served to simply ignore it.
Anyone out there had previous expereince? Anyone able to categorically sum up where I stand legally? I trust the LFW pool of knowledge so looking for advice and assistance here please!!
Obviously I dont want to part with 60 notes but I'd sooner that than 100 and/or legal issues and bailiffs etc
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| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 16:37 - Nov 23 with 6531 views | Northernr |
I had some experience with one of these a few years back. Basically in a rush I'd put my reg plate into the machine as 54 when it was 56. I was the only car in the car park at the time, I had the ticket to prove that I'd paid for an hour of parking (and stayed for 20 minutes) so I sent it to them expecting them to waive it and they wrote back saying I'd violated their terms and now owed them £100 instead of £60.
I went into a bit and basically the general rule seems to be if it's the council or the police you probably should pay it and if it's one of these private firms you probably shouldn't. I forget the exact term but the fine they levy against you has to be relative to the loss they have incurred through your actions - clearly £60 and £100 is way over the top for that. In my case they'd actually suffered no loss whatsoever.
They can't send bailiffs round without a court hearing, as I pointed out when they started threatening me with that. In the end I was getting a letter every other day threatening CCJ, bailiffs, court case etc so I wrote to them saying I'd be delighted for the case to be heard in court so we could get it sorted out and invited them to take it there within the next 14 days or stop contacting me, otherwise I'd take action against them myself under the harassment act. Never heard anything more from them.
It may have changed since but at the time the whole industry existed on the idea that by parking your car in their car park you enter into a contract with them, which is a load of rubbish really. They rarely, if ever, took the cases to court because it could set damaging precedent against them if they lost.
You do sound like you've broken the rules of the car park though, whereas I didn't, so they have incurred some loss, so tread carefully, but basically these companies profit through intimidation and people being lazy. |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 16:57 - Nov 23 with 6476 views | Lblock |
I'm in two minds.
That BBC link seems to suggest this mob are legit and that I may well have a case to answer.
It's just I've seen other conflicting advice saying just ignore everything unless it's court action. There's actually a BBC Watchdog clip somewhere with a lawyer in the field saying turn the charge notice into a paper airplane and chuck it out the window!!! Thing is I dont know the circumstances of that, how long ago it was and if it all still applies and to me.
Guess I need to flip a coin... maybe sixty of them | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 17:53 - Nov 23 with 6413 views | Bushman |
Pay the £60 and forget about it would be my advice and move on.
They're all knuts those companies and the amount of time you will spend writing letters and waiting on hold to speak to someone who will tell you are due for a "visit" from one of their agents it's just not worth it IMHO.
As pointed out they rely on bullying and intimidation to get paid.
If you don't on the other hand, mind a bit of argy bargy and worrying about the doorbell ringing hold your ground.
Had a demand put through my door the other day by on of these thugs from an enforcement company for someone I'd never heard of who wasn't the geezer I bought my gaff off who'd lived at my address for 20 years..
Anyway rang them to tell them they had the wrong address so I wouldnt get bad credit rating & they told me I had to send a copy of my council tax bill otherwise they would come back to collect payment.
Nice if your kids are there on their own!
The world's gone mad [Post edited 23 Nov 2014 17:54]
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| I know almost nothing about the Premier League even though I try to catch the big games every now and then at the end of the season. But I will say this, Queens Park Rangers is just a fukking sick ass team name. Just sounds so cool. |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 18:23 - Nov 23 with 6353 views | BasingstokeR |
Another recommendation for the fightback forums (pepipoo) link above.
Helped me "get out" of all sorts of London Borough PCNs! |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 19:15 - Nov 23 with 6265 views | SussexR |
Having had a similar thing in a Macdonalds car park, my suggestion would be challenge them, but definately do not ignore it. They like that.
They deliberately call it a Parking Charge Notice, to make it seem like a Penalty Charge Notice, which is what a council controlled car park would issue, but legally they are two different things entirely.
I'd challenge it in writing with as many problems as possible. Eventually they'll give up if you make it last long enough.
My issue was eventually cancelled by MacDonalds themselves. |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 19:33 - Nov 23 with 6229 views | Deano19766 |
I have had around 20 of this type of ticket in the last 2 years. Havent paid any of them and in fact have completely ignored every one of them. Each time they write to me for around 3/4 months then it stops. The reason I didn't pay is as per pointed out by Northern - at law they cannot enforce a penalty for breach of contract (which is what it is when you stay too long or don;t pay at a car park). All they can seek is damages for breach of contract - the damages exist to put them back in the position they would have been in had it not been for the breach and they are calculated on the basis of a very old case known as Hadley v Baxendale. In other words they can only recover their loss, and that loss must occur in the natural cause of things - it cannot be too remote.
In summary, their stated fine is likely to be unenforceable in the sum they claim. If they were to pursue it then realistically all they could look to recover is the sum you failed to pay plus damages to cover any other properly incurred losses stemming directly from your failure to pay (which won't amount to anything like the sum they are claiming). They know this so are unlikely to take it to court - they make enough profit from the people who worry about it and pay up!
Personally I would completely ignore them - if you start communicating with them they will only start hassling you and, believe it or not, if you don't word your communications correctly you may actually be accepting that the 'fine' is legitimate and that they have a right to it at law.
Or you could just pay it. But I wouldn't. [Post edited 23 Nov 2014 19:41]
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 19:40 - Nov 23 with 6209 views | Juzzie |
Thankfully I rarely use car parks for my bike or car but when I do,I always take a couple of photos of the sign. They are usually held together with cable-ties, not permanently bolted. The reason is so the fukkers can change the sign after you've parked. |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 10:35 - Nov 24 with 5888 views | CroydonCaptJack |
We have people park outside our gates and block them so brought these in a few years ago. However, when the law changed we stopped trying to issue them as we believed we would not be able to enforce them.
Deanos looks like good advice to me. |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 10:35 - Nov 24 with 5887 views | bosh67 |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 17:53 - Nov 23 by Bushman |
Pay the £60 and forget about it would be my advice and move on.
They're all knuts those companies and the amount of time you will spend writing letters and waiting on hold to speak to someone who will tell you are due for a "visit" from one of their agents it's just not worth it IMHO.
As pointed out they rely on bullying and intimidation to get paid.
If you don't on the other hand, mind a bit of argy bargy and worrying about the doorbell ringing hold your ground.
Had a demand put through my door the other day by on of these thugs from an enforcement company for someone I'd never heard of who wasn't the geezer I bought my gaff off who'd lived at my address for 20 years..
Anyway rang them to tell them they had the wrong address so I wouldnt get bad credit rating & they told me I had to send a copy of my council tax bill otherwise they would come back to collect payment.
Nice if your kids are there on their own!
The world's gone mad [Post edited 23 Nov 2014 17:54]
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This, to be honest. Just let the council in these people's area know they are doing this and if you like, contact trading standards and report them if it is illegal.
But on this one, just pay it and as Bush said, move on. |  |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 10:44 - Nov 24 with 5884 views | tooting_hoop |
My experience was overstaying in a Sainsburys.
I chose to ignore totally resolving to pay the fine plus costs if they actually took me to the county court.
I was working on the assumption that in most cases unless you are a multiple infringer who owes them thousands in fines they would not bother to pursue it to court.
In my case I was right.
This was Euro Parking.
Also, remember that in many cases the debt recovery company sending threatening letters is just another department of the parking firm. It's all smoke and mirrors.
I would estimate that in total I was written to about 12 times. Hold your nerve if you go down this route. Until they actually serve papers on you it's all bluster.
If you get a county court papers served on you then do not ignore as you will end up with real bailiffs after you with actual legal rights. So if it gets this far just accept that you have lost!
Hope this helps. |  |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 11:12 - Nov 24 with 5842 views | hoopstilidie |
Throw them in the bin. Do not respond. They'll send ever more threatening letters but eventually they'll stop.
They have no right to issue a fine, it's an invoice.
You are not duty bound to pay it unless they take you to court, they've never taken anybody to court and they never will as they'd lose. Their invoice is punitive and, as such, unenforceable.
Trust me, I've had 4 of these from different companies, never replied to a sin gle one and they eventually just stop contacting. |  |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 12:26 - Nov 24 with 5778 views | paulparker |
Don't pay it Lblock, as others have said they cannot enforce the fine nor can they give you a CCJ , do not enter into any dialogue with them put all the letters in the bin
it will not stand up in court either , these people will throw letter after letter at you but stay firm,
at the end of the day they cannot prove who the driver was
a DVLA check only Provides keepers details not who was actually driving /parking the car , these Private companies are a scam |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 13:39 - Nov 24 with 5705 views | W7Ranger |
Follow this...
Don't ignore! You could ignore until about 18 months ago, but not any more. You can still get off it tho' if you follow the advice on the Money Saving forum. I got off one just a couple of months ago with help from this forum. You can usually get off on a technicality such as bad lighting, poor signage, GPEOL (Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss) etc...
It does take up a bit of your time, but it's worth it if you don't want to cough up any dosh. Good luck! |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 15:34 - Nov 24 with 5630 views | Brightonhoop |
Send it back, stating you have already dedicated three hours of valuable family time dealing with it, charged at £200 an hour, and present an Invoice for £600 due on demand. |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 17:52 - Nov 24 with 5564 views | thame_hoops |
do not pay it! it isnt a fine, its a unenforceable invoice from a limited company.
i had this with euro a couple of years ago, they will keep sending letter, begging, the £60 rarely goes up despite them saying it will be £100 because they know people wont pay higher fines. the letters you will get from debt collectors are fictious usually registered at their head office address and and so are their solicitors letters. like clive said, it has to go to court beofre bayliffs.
also, i seem to remember if they did actually push someone through to court, all you would have to pay would be their losses so whatever the parking loss was, £2 or whatever.
even if you have the most bvalid of excuses like you entered your reg number wrong yet paid they still come after you because they are bullies. i think they stopped writing to me after 5 months |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 18:47 - Nov 24 with 5521 views | hoopstilidie |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 13:39 - Nov 24 by W7Ranger |
Follow this...
Don't ignore! You could ignore until about 18 months ago, but not any more. You can still get off it tho' if you follow the advice on the Money Saving forum. I got off one just a couple of months ago with help from this forum. You can usually get off on a technicality such as bad lighting, poor signage, GPEOL (Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss) etc...
It does take up a bit of your time, but it's worth it if you don't want to cough up any dosh. Good luck! |
You can still ignore. You are under no obligation to reply. They don't have a leg to stand on. They use scare tactics for that very reason. I've had 2 within the last year. Heard nothing more from either of them for over 6 months.
Takes no time.
Throw them in the bin. | |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 20:18 - Nov 24 with 5469 views | Lblock |
I'm appealing............ well that's what all the girls say anyway!
I've not got the nads or personal attitude to simply ignore. My day to day job involves all manner of claims in the construction industry so to just ignore it wouldn't be in my nature.
I accept the advice these boys are chancers and clearly the 4 foundations of a contract have not been entered into. Lots of other interesting tortuous legal stuff has come out in my research.
Letter done and email sent - we'll see what happens now.
Thanks again to the font of knowledge that LFW is. | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 11:51 - Nov 25 with 5328 views | W7Ranger |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 18:47 - Nov 24 by hoopstilidie |
You can still ignore. You are under no obligation to reply. They don't have a leg to stand on. They use scare tactics for that very reason. I've had 2 within the last year. Heard nothing more from either of them for over 6 months.
Takes no time.
Throw them in the bin. |
It depends who the company is that is chasing you. Some are amateurs and survive on the fines that people pay up. Others will chase you and get the Registered Keeper details off the DVLA to pursue it.
Follow the advice off the Money Saving Expert forum, they will help you get off this if you follow their instructions. | | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 13:57 - Nov 25 with 5275 views | baz_qpr |
If its the council they have to take photographic proof of the offence, and all the signage if they dont the ticket will be overturned on appeal. Would imagine the burden of proof is the same. As others have said if private company just ignore it, the cost of recovery outweighs any profit made |  | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 19:50 - Nov 25 with 5209 views | thame_hoops |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 20:18 - Nov 24 by Lblock |
I'm appealing............ well that's what all the girls say anyway!
I've not got the nads or personal attitude to simply ignore. My day to day job involves all manner of claims in the construction industry so to just ignore it wouldn't be in my nature.
I accept the advice these boys are chancers and clearly the 4 foundations of a contract have not been entered into. Lots of other interesting tortuous legal stuff has come out in my research.
Letter done and email sent - we'll see what happens now.
Thanks again to the font of knowledge that LFW is. |
Never in a million years will your appeal be successful, they are unscrupulous and will just quite daft t&c's
Good luck man | | | |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 20:04 - Nov 25 with 5202 views | Deano19766 |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 20:18 - Nov 24 by Lblock |
I'm appealing............ well that's what all the girls say anyway!
I've not got the nads or personal attitude to simply ignore. My day to day job involves all manner of claims in the construction industry so to just ignore it wouldn't be in my nature.
I accept the advice these boys are chancers and clearly the 4 foundations of a contract have not been entered into. Lots of other interesting tortuous legal stuff has come out in my research.
Letter done and email sent - we'll see what happens now.
Thanks again to the font of knowledge that LFW is. |
Bad move in my opinion. The worst thing you could have done. Prepare for the appeal to be rejected out of hand, and a barrage of demands. You may have even have validated their 'invoice' (as someone says above its an invoice not a fine) by responding to them unless you have made an adequate reservation of your position in your appeal.
You had nothing to lose by ignoring them. If they commenced proceedings (which they would not have done anyway) you could have just paid up then if you were too nervous to hold your ground.
I specialise in construction law and the resolution of disputes in construction so I am an an argumentative fecker, but in this case there was no argument - just ignore.
Ah well it's done now. Let us know how you get on. You'll most likely end up paying now as they will have your acknowledgement that their invoice is valid in principle save as for a dispute over whether it was validly issued for the reasons stated in your appeal.
Good luck though regardless [Post edited 25 Nov 2014 20:09]
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| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 00:00 - Nov 27 with 5083 views | hoopstilidie |
| Parking Charge Notice? ADVICE REQUIRED PLEASE! on 11:51 - Nov 25 by W7Ranger |
It depends who the company is that is chasing you. Some are amateurs and survive on the fines that people pay up. Others will chase you and get the Registered Keeper details off the DVLA to pursue it.
Follow the advice off the Money Saving Expert forum, they will help you get off this if you follow their instructions. |
Doesn't matter at all.
None of them has ever taken anybody to court, nor will they, they'd lose and set precedent. Their "fines" are not commensurate with the cost they believe they have incurred. They're punitive and, by their nature, unenforceable.
It's an invoice not a fine.
You don't deal with any of them. Regardless of what association they belong to.
You don't acknowledge them.
You throw it in the bin.
It's scaremongering rubbish.
I speak from experience, lots of it.
Current score, Me 4 - Them 0.
And 2 of those were members of recognised bodies.
[Post edited 27 Nov 2014 10:00]
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