Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 10:27 - Jan 7 with 652 views | onehunglow | It’s really very simple Rochdale and Oldham have huge sub continent folk The culture in both town is totally different to that which the denizens of Swansea see . Trust me Few vote Conservative in the old Lancashire mill towns ,due to culture ( working class ) . It’s like south Wales . Hatred of the Tories Labour is simply doing what is best to protect their vote ,quite shamelessly too. Including this Is this issue discussed at the Mosque at prayers ? It should | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 12:09 - Jan 7 with 596 views | controversial_jack |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 09:35 - Jan 7 by majorraglan | From the BBC report…. “ We have been unable to find any direct criticism of Starmer personally in any of the reports on the scandal, nor can we identify any suggestions that he himself made any decisions not to prosecute.” Starmer made changes at the CPS which made it easier to prosecute the offenders. Fortunately, Nazir Afzal overturned the CPS lawyers in the North of England and prosecutions went ahead. Victims were let down, it’s a damning indictment of our country, jus5 like thecPostvOffice scandal, the infected blood scandal and others. Is there anything we cant get wrong? Edit - typo [Post edited 7 Jan 19:08]
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The criticism is directed towards the police not the CPS. The police do the investigating not the CPS as you probably know. According to Starmer, they prosecuted more under his leadership than any others.He would say that, but i'm sure it could be verified or not | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 12:18 - Jan 7 with 587 views | Boundy |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 12:09 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack | The criticism is directed towards the police not the CPS. The police do the investigating not the CPS as you probably know. According to Starmer, they prosecuted more under his leadership than any others.He would say that, but i'm sure it could be verified or not |
The police indeed investigate and can bring prosecutions if they wish to do so. They also present the evidence to the CPS who as in too many cases chose not to bring prosecutions against the Pakistanis who were in the majority of cases the perpetrators. Both are guilty of not formfilling their duties wouldn't you agree. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 13:16 - Jan 7 with 552 views | controversial_jack |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 12:18 - Jan 7 by Boundy | The police indeed investigate and can bring prosecutions if they wish to do so. They also present the evidence to the CPS who as in too many cases chose not to bring prosecutions against the Pakistanis who were in the majority of cases the perpetrators. Both are guilty of not formfilling their duties wouldn't you agree. |
If the evidence is not good enough for a prosecution the CPS will not prosecute as it's a waste of time and money and will not get a conviction. It does seem as if the police didn't do their investigations correctly. and gather enough evidence, but we won't know | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 13:36 - Jan 7 with 543 views | majorraglan |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 12:18 - Jan 7 by Boundy | The police indeed investigate and can bring prosecutions if they wish to do so. They also present the evidence to the CPS who as in too many cases chose not to bring prosecutions against the Pakistanis who were in the majority of cases the perpetrators. Both are guilty of not formfilling their duties wouldn't you agree. |
The police do investigate and can Charge/ Summons people to Court for certain low level offences without reference to the CPS but not for serious cases such as this. Before proceedings can be initiated in most types of cases particularly sexual offences the consent of the CPS has to be secured, generally that means submitting a file after the investigation has been completed and the Full Code Test is applied. There is a second process called the Threshold Test but that is only applied when suspects are in Custody and the police believe there are sufficient grounds to Charge and remand, but those cases are rarer and still need to go through a separate department of the CPS which is called CPS Direct and they have a team of lawyers working outside officer hours to review cases. There are 2 stages to the Full Code Test, the first is the evidential test and the second is the public interest test. If a file doesn’t meet the evidential test, then it will quite rightly be discontinued, if the file meets the first part it will proceed to the second part of the test. If the case satisfies both requirements, then Charges will be laid, if it doesn’t the CPS can return it for more work or they will discontinue it. Prosecution rates for sexual offences including rape are very low and the problem has been subject to much scrutiny. There are quite a few reasons for this, but 1 is the fact these offences can occur in private where there are no independent witnesses and it’s 1 word against the other and a lack of corroboration, when it comes to historic cases throw in a potential lack of corroborating evidence and it becomes even harder. These days, I believe every allegation of rape is investigated and all cases are reviewed by senior police officers and the CPS. The police and CPS have a really hard job and there are times they’ve got it wrong and times they’ve got it right. There are victims who’ve been let down and there are innocent members of the public who’ve been subjected to malicious allegations and the trauma that comes with that. The victims in Oldham and Rochdale have been let down on all fronts, some by their families, by the social services, by the care homes who were supposed to protect them, by the councils delivering the services, the criminal justice system (police, CPS, Courts) and by the politicians at Westminster. | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:03 - Jan 7 with 522 views | raynor94 | Qari Abdul Rauf the leader of the Rochdale grooming gang was jailed for 6 years he only served 30 months, and was told he would be deported to Pakistan in 2014 on release He's now been back living in the town for 10 years and working as a delivery driver, bit of a shock for one of his victims finding him at the front door | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:07 - Jan 7 with 514 views | controversial_jack |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:03 - Jan 7 by raynor94 | Qari Abdul Rauf the leader of the Rochdale grooming gang was jailed for 6 years he only served 30 months, and was told he would be deported to Pakistan in 2014 on release He's now been back living in the town for 10 years and working as a delivery driver, bit of a shock for one of his victims finding him at the front door |
How the hell did this creature get employment of this kind? | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:27 - Jan 7 with 499 views | Flashberryjack |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:07 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack | How the hell did this creature get employment of this kind? |
Why the hell is this creature still in thhe country, this is the question that need answering. | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:29 - Jan 7 with 496 views | onehunglow |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:03 - Jan 7 by raynor94 | Qari Abdul Rauf the leader of the Rochdale grooming gang was jailed for 6 years he only served 30 months, and was told he would be deported to Pakistan in 2014 on release He's now been back living in the town for 10 years and working as a delivery driver, bit of a shock for one of his victims finding him at the front door |
There you nail it 30 months Why? Any ask? | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 15:25 - Jan 7 with 472 views | Boundy |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:27 - Jan 7 by Flashberryjack | Why the hell is this creature still in thhe country, this is the question that need answering. |
Because he has a right to family life ? | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 15:28 - Jan 7 with 470 views | Boundy |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 13:16 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack | If the evidence is not good enough for a prosecution the CPS will not prosecute as it's a waste of time and money and will not get a conviction. It does seem as if the police didn't do their investigations correctly. and gather enough evidence, but we won't know |
Your last sentence , you're right we don't know but those that do ,the victims, councillors, social workers ,politicians, Police so someone's lying | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 16:36 - Jan 7 with 430 views | Boundy |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 13:36 - Jan 7 by majorraglan | The police do investigate and can Charge/ Summons people to Court for certain low level offences without reference to the CPS but not for serious cases such as this. Before proceedings can be initiated in most types of cases particularly sexual offences the consent of the CPS has to be secured, generally that means submitting a file after the investigation has been completed and the Full Code Test is applied. There is a second process called the Threshold Test but that is only applied when suspects are in Custody and the police believe there are sufficient grounds to Charge and remand, but those cases are rarer and still need to go through a separate department of the CPS which is called CPS Direct and they have a team of lawyers working outside officer hours to review cases. There are 2 stages to the Full Code Test, the first is the evidential test and the second is the public interest test. If a file doesn’t meet the evidential test, then it will quite rightly be discontinued, if the file meets the first part it will proceed to the second part of the test. If the case satisfies both requirements, then Charges will be laid, if it doesn’t the CPS can return it for more work or they will discontinue it. Prosecution rates for sexual offences including rape are very low and the problem has been subject to much scrutiny. There are quite a few reasons for this, but 1 is the fact these offences can occur in private where there are no independent witnesses and it’s 1 word against the other and a lack of corroboration, when it comes to historic cases throw in a potential lack of corroborating evidence and it becomes even harder. These days, I believe every allegation of rape is investigated and all cases are reviewed by senior police officers and the CPS. The police and CPS have a really hard job and there are times they’ve got it wrong and times they’ve got it right. There are victims who’ve been let down and there are innocent members of the public who’ve been subjected to malicious allegations and the trauma that comes with that. The victims in Oldham and Rochdale have been let down on all fronts, some by their families, by the social services, by the care homes who were supposed to protect them, by the councils delivering the services, the criminal justice system (police, CPS, Courts) and by the politicians at Westminster. |
The victims are not confined to the two areas mentioned but nation wide , you're correct about single incidents being sometimes difficult to ascertain the truth but something of this magnitude you'd have thought a bit of joined up thinking could have been adopted . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 16:56 - Jan 7 with 406 views | AnotherJohn | Just heard Simon Bailey, the former National Police Chiefs' Council lead on child protection., setting out on Radio 5 what I would gloss as the establishment line. The main points he made were:: There is no point in a new inquiry, which will just replicate the findings we already have. The victims would prefer to see the existing recommendations implemented to a new inquiry. Over 50% of child sexual abuse is child on child abuse. Asian grooming gangs account for only about 3% of child sexual abuse. The grooming gangs that do exist are drawn from all ethnicities. Reforms that he and others have brought in have removed the problem of police officers not acting because they fear being labeled racist. It is unhelpful to focus on the issue of whether immigration of persons from certain cultures increases the risk of child abuse; rather it is better for government to focus on getting overall incidence of child abuse down. I can't say I am entirely convinced. I think there is something in the argument that the terms of reference of the previous inquiry were framed in such a way as to protect some institutional interests and stop short of addressing the most sensitive questions. Where I am undecided is whether it is better to move to a new public inquiry, or to establish a new mechanism for investigation of the actions of key figures and dishing out sanctions where deserved. [Post edited 7 Jan 17:00]
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 17:15 - Jan 7 with 394 views | Gwyn737 |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 16:56 - Jan 7 by AnotherJohn | Just heard Simon Bailey, the former National Police Chiefs' Council lead on child protection., setting out on Radio 5 what I would gloss as the establishment line. The main points he made were:: There is no point in a new inquiry, which will just replicate the findings we already have. The victims would prefer to see the existing recommendations implemented to a new inquiry. Over 50% of child sexual abuse is child on child abuse. Asian grooming gangs account for only about 3% of child sexual abuse. The grooming gangs that do exist are drawn from all ethnicities. Reforms that he and others have brought in have removed the problem of police officers not acting because they fear being labeled racist. It is unhelpful to focus on the issue of whether immigration of persons from certain cultures increases the risk of child abuse; rather it is better for government to focus on getting overall incidence of child abuse down. I can't say I am entirely convinced. I think there is something in the argument that the terms of reference of the previous inquiry were framed in such a way as to protect some institutional interests and stop short of addressing the most sensitive questions. Where I am undecided is whether it is better to move to a new public inquiry, or to establish a new mechanism for investigation of the actions of key figures and dishing out sanctions where deserved. [Post edited 7 Jan 17:00]
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This is what I was alluding too earlier in the thread. Lots clamouring for a national inquiry without really knowing if that’s the best way to get answers. It’s true that some of the outcomes from the 2022 inquiry were not actioned. I find it depressing that the political parties are so busy blaming each other. Surely that would be an excellent chance for cross party working. | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 18:29 - Jan 7 with 339 views | AnotherJohn | Before I became completely disillusioned with the policy direction of the Labour Party, I was attracted to the ideas of so-called Blue Labour. This is the campaign group associated with Maurice Glasman, which I felt might help halt the drift towards becoming a party of woke middle-class voters. The group has been treated disgracefully by the party "progressives", although its ideas do still sometimes get mentioned in areas such as what to do about the red wall seats. Blue Labour have now come out with an interesting statement on sexual exploitation of girls by gangs (can't find the original document). https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/labour-group-breaks-with-party-to-back-groo | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:02 - Jan 7 with 312 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 09:35 - Jan 7 by majorraglan | From the BBC report…. “ We have been unable to find any direct criticism of Starmer personally in any of the reports on the scandal, nor can we identify any suggestions that he himself made any decisions not to prosecute.” Starmer made changes at the CPS which made it easier to prosecute the offenders. Fortunately, Nazir Afzal overturned the CPS lawyers in the North of England and prosecutions went ahead. Victims were let down, it’s a damning indictment of our country, jus5 like thecPostvOffice scandal, the infected blood scandal and others. Is there anything we cant get wrong? Edit - typo [Post edited 7 Jan 19:08]
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Has anyone in authority been held to account for this? | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:05 - Jan 7 with 308 views | majorraglan |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 17:15 - Jan 7 by Gwyn737 | This is what I was alluding too earlier in the thread. Lots clamouring for a national inquiry without really knowing if that’s the best way to get answers. It’s true that some of the outcomes from the 2022 inquiry were not actioned. I find it depressing that the political parties are so busy blaming each other. Surely that would be an excellent chance for cross party working. |
It’s my understanding none of the recommendations were implemented. There were plenty of warm words when the report was published in 2022, but nowt in terms of tangible action. ( There’s more in it in my war and peace post yesterday. ) | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:11 - Jan 7 with 293 views | Scotia |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 17:15 - Jan 7 by Gwyn737 | This is what I was alluding too earlier in the thread. Lots clamouring for a national inquiry without really knowing if that’s the best way to get answers. It’s true that some of the outcomes from the 2022 inquiry were not actioned. I find it depressing that the political parties are so busy blaming each other. Surely that would be an excellent chance for cross party working. |
It almost certainly isn't the best place to get answers. As mentioned earlier just 3% of of abuse is down to Asian grooming gangs. The actual problem is men, or groups of men using a position of perceived authority to abuse vulnerable girls. It's been happening for centuries. It happened to girls I was in school with that I still know to this day. One lost her virginity, as a 14 year old, to a soldier in his mid twenties. The soldier in question still lives in the area. He's a paedophile. No national inquiry is going to stop that. It's a societal problem. Caused by men. The main place this happens nowadays is the internet, if only Elon Musk got his own social media house in order before spouting nonsense he doesn't understand. The comments this weekend made by Kendrick and Badenoch this weekend are shocking. We're going to hell in a handcart. | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:16 - Jan 7 with 291 views | majorraglan |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 14:27 - Jan 7 by Flashberryjack | Why the hell is this creature still in thhe country, this is the question that need answering. |
And that is a very good question. This guy lost his appeal to against deportation in 2022 when immigration tribunal judges ruled against him, so unless this case is waiting to be heard on appeal at a higher level (if there is such a thing then) then he/they should have been deported immediately after the last hearing. https://news.sky.com/story/two-rochdale-grooming-gang-members-lose-appeal-agains [Post edited 7 Jan 19:18]
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:49 - Jan 7 with 254 views | Flashberryjack |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:16 - Jan 7 by majorraglan | And that is a very good question. This guy lost his appeal to against deportation in 2022 when immigration tribunal judges ruled against him, so unless this case is waiting to be heard on appeal at a higher level (if there is such a thing then) then he/they should have been deported immediately after the last hearing. https://news.sky.com/story/two-rochdale-grooming-gang-members-lose-appeal-agains [Post edited 7 Jan 19:18]
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Since being released from prison, the men have fought a long legal battle against deportation, mounting multiple legal challenges and appeals over several years. During the tribunal hearing in London on Monday it emerged that Aziz had been told he would not be stripped of his UK citizenship and deported. Aziz had renounced his Pakistani citizenship in July 2018, just days before the Court of Appeal ruled he could be deprived of his UK citizenship. Human rights laws at it's best. | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:00 - Jan 7 with 242 views | AnotherJohn |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 19:11 - Jan 7 by Scotia | It almost certainly isn't the best place to get answers. As mentioned earlier just 3% of of abuse is down to Asian grooming gangs. The actual problem is men, or groups of men using a position of perceived authority to abuse vulnerable girls. It's been happening for centuries. It happened to girls I was in school with that I still know to this day. One lost her virginity, as a 14 year old, to a soldier in his mid twenties. The soldier in question still lives in the area. He's a paedophile. No national inquiry is going to stop that. It's a societal problem. Caused by men. The main place this happens nowadays is the internet, if only Elon Musk got his own social media house in order before spouting nonsense he doesn't understand. The comments this weekend made by Kendrick and Badenoch this weekend are shocking. We're going to hell in a handcart. |
Re the 3%, I did mention that Simon Bailey quoted that figure, but I am unsure how accurate it is. Given the allegations of widespread dismissal of complaints and failure to proceed with prosecutions, I'd be surprised if it did not underestimate the scale of the problem, especially if we focus on that proportion of sexual abuse that involves adult males and girls. | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:11 - Jan 7 with 229 views | Gwyn737 |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:00 - Jan 7 by AnotherJohn | Re the 3%, I did mention that Simon Bailey quoted that figure, but I am unsure how accurate it is. Given the allegations of widespread dismissal of complaints and failure to proceed with prosecutions, I'd be surprised if it did not underestimate the scale of the problem, especially if we focus on that proportion of sexual abuse that involves adult males and girls. |
I saw that stat but I can’t find it atm. It also pointed out (I think) that white British who make up 80% of the population are responsible for 80% of sexual offences. As you say this doesn’t take into account when prosecutions should have taken place. | | | |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:19 - Jan 7 with 213 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:11 - Jan 7 by Gwyn737 | I saw that stat but I can’t find it atm. It also pointed out (I think) that white British who make up 80% of the population are responsible for 80% of sexual offences. As you say this doesn’t take into account when prosecutions should have taken place. |
When it comes to grooming gangs the figures are different. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/quilliam-grooming-gangs-report-a | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:24 - Jan 7 with 202 views | Flashberryjack |
For some reason a few people want to shine the torch away from Asian grooming gangs. | |
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Oldham grooming gangs: Government blocks national inquiry on 20:30 - Jan 7 with 194 views | Gwyn737 |
That’s grooming gang members, I was on about overall sexual offences. | | | |
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