| Fans allowed back 15:21 - Nov 23 with 19066 views | dalenumber2 |
Breaking news: A maximum of 4,000 fans are to be allowed at outdoor events in the lowest-risk areas when the national lockdown in England ends on 2 December, so BBC Sport understands. Probably not us then! |  | | |  |
| Fans allowed back on 16:10 - Nov 27 with 1848 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 15:48 - Nov 27 by 442Dale |
That’s exactly my point. What one person understands, someone else disputes. The rules are what they are and if people want to follow them or break them that’s their choice. There’s no perfect answer to any of it, and as much as I’d want to go to a game or other things I might personally deem safe, it’s how things are. We were debating this at the end of summer when Rochdale was averaging less than twenty cases a day, now it’s although it’s coming down it’s still around 5x that figure, and back then pubs were open as well as the shops. |
I know it’s how things are, bit fatalistic to just accept it, I could understand the pub lockdown if non essential retail joined it, but to have everything open apart from restaurants, bars and theatres looks nonsensical. Shops in the Trafford centre are an indoor venue inside an indoor venue! Double Covid danger
Edit: I’m just having a moan, it’s not beer o clock for 40 minutes [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 16:21]
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| Fans allowed back on 16:20 - Nov 27 with 1824 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 14:24 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
Just reading in today’s Times that privately government sources are saying there is little prospect of areas moving down a tier level before the effects of the Christmas free for all are known, I.e. middle of January . Unless this is just expectation lowering, it’s a pretty good reason for Tory rebels and Labour to vote these measures down. Seems bonkers we have to endure longer tier three so people can travel all over in a mad dash for 5 days.I’ve emailed my MP |
May come as a surprise, but i agree with you to a large extent on this
I honestly think that hospitality (along the lines DL outlines, with monitored intake of alcohol alongside food) should be opening everywhere from 2 December. If there's no hospitality till mid-January, it'll be economic carnage and nobody wants to see that. I wouldn't be too bothered if the government lose this vote; the question is, will what replaces it be offset with some other measure?
The scientific opinion - based on modelling of variable reliability - needs to have greater scrutiny, and that's precisely what the Tory rebels are seeking |  |
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| Fans allowed back on 16:33 - Nov 27 with 1787 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 16:20 - Nov 27 by D_Alien |
May come as a surprise, but i agree with you to a large extent on this
I honestly think that hospitality (along the lines DL outlines, with monitored intake of alcohol alongside food) should be opening everywhere from 2 December. If there's no hospitality till mid-January, it'll be economic carnage and nobody wants to see that. I wouldn't be too bothered if the government lose this vote; the question is, will what replaces it be offset with some other measure?
The scientific opinion - based on modelling of variable reliability - needs to have greater scrutiny, and that's precisely what the Tory rebels are seeking |
I think the error made in the summer was opening everything all at once, if things had been done one thing at a time it would have been easy to see which activities were the ones causing spikes. I understand that track and trace could have also done this, but we won’t go there. A doctor trying different treatments on a patient , wouldn’t do 6 at once, as he wouldn’t know which one worked . Clearly the latest mild lockdown has had a positive effect, and I would have supported a tier 2 + regime with restrictions on time in pub etc. Thing is now whole swathes of our society are kicking back at these measures, and their effectiveness will decrease over time.
Loads of pubs must have ordered beer and supplies in in anticipation of being returned to at worst the old tier 3 regs, many will go bust very soon, with all the knock on job losses [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 16:34]
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| Fans allowed back on 16:43 - Nov 27 with 1768 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 15:07 - Nov 27 by DaleiLama |
The vaccine can't come soon enough now.
I share your view to some extent and 2 days, 25/26th, both Bank Holidays, would seem enough to see the only 2 other households you are supposed to mix with. Even with modern splintered families, you would have thought that ought to be plenty of opportunity?
Then there's the elephant in the room - New Year. Anyone thinking there aren't going to be a very large swathe of 16-25s at private parties getting trolleyed is deluding themselves.
I can see it being an absolute sh1tshow this "festive" period. Not just in the UK either.
I also fail to see how going for a meal in a pub where the landlord/lady is monitoring levels of inebriation and numbers/distancing, is appreciably different to cramming Xmas shopping and shoppers into stores for 3 weeks and not letting fans into and out of Spotland in an orderly, secure fashion.
As has been the case during much of lockdown, the politicians are guided by the science but then make decisions based on their chosen priorities, in some cases ignoring the science but still hiding behind it. The logic is often mystifying - the only shred of comfort is the light is slowly starting to glow at the end of the tunnel.
The US doesn't seem to like the AZ vaccine so hopefully that means the light comes on quicker here. I have heard that a local authority has firm plans in place to have all who want a vaccine immunised by Easter. Hope this confidence isn't misplaced. |
Ah yes new year, like you say not any mention of that. For young uns, Christmas and new year is just a week long bender( or it was when I was young). This is why it’s important to get out of tier three before Xmas , we have no chance after!( prop all back in lockdown by mid jan) | |
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| Fans allowed back on 16:43 - Nov 27 with 1768 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 16:33 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
I think the error made in the summer was opening everything all at once, if things had been done one thing at a time it would have been easy to see which activities were the ones causing spikes. I understand that track and trace could have also done this, but we won’t go there. A doctor trying different treatments on a patient , wouldn’t do 6 at once, as he wouldn’t know which one worked . Clearly the latest mild lockdown has had a positive effect, and I would have supported a tier 2 + regime with restrictions on time in pub etc. Thing is now whole swathes of our society are kicking back at these measures, and their effectiveness will decrease over time.
Loads of pubs must have ordered beer and supplies in in anticipation of being returned to at worst the old tier 3 regs, many will go bust very soon, with all the knock on job losses [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 16:34]
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R is now at or below 1 according to the latest figures
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55105285
Whilst this will largely be due to the latest lockdown, imo it'd be viable to put everyone into Tier 2 regs (including those in Tier 1) up till the 2 January, then put another lockdown in place. Hospitality is pretty quiet the first few weeks in January anyway. Yes, it'll probably put the rate back above 1 but there's talk of mass testing on the lines that've worked in Liverpool. There's no point (again imo) looking back at what might've or should've happened, but what needs to be done now to prevent huge swathes of vital hospitality going out of business, plus the damage to the social fabric. We're in a different place to where we were last March | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:03 - Nov 27 with 1732 views | DaleiLama |
| Fans allowed back on 16:33 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
I think the error made in the summer was opening everything all at once, if things had been done one thing at a time it would have been easy to see which activities were the ones causing spikes. I understand that track and trace could have also done this, but we won’t go there. A doctor trying different treatments on a patient , wouldn’t do 6 at once, as he wouldn’t know which one worked . Clearly the latest mild lockdown has had a positive effect, and I would have supported a tier 2 + regime with restrictions on time in pub etc. Thing is now whole swathes of our society are kicking back at these measures, and their effectiveness will decrease over time.
Loads of pubs must have ordered beer and supplies in in anticipation of being returned to at worst the old tier 3 regs, many will go bust very soon, with all the knock on job losses [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 16:34]
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Mild lockdown? Does that mean we can still get bitter? Or are we bitter enough?
But seriously, it also affects breweries just as much - larger regionals are flushing thousands of gallons of perfectly good ale down the drain regularly. Criminal. And when the hospitality taps are turned back on again (literally and figuratively) more ale will be needed to fill the pipes. Don't even get me started on food waste - at least lots of establishments are diversifying and offering takeaways but that doesn't work for all. Further up the supply chain there are lots of breeders/growers etc etc which are producing for all these outlets.
This isn't an industry operating like a light switch which you can turn on/off at will. |  |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:07 - Nov 27 with 1723 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 17:03 - Nov 27 by DaleiLama |
Mild lockdown? Does that mean we can still get bitter? Or are we bitter enough?
But seriously, it also affects breweries just as much - larger regionals are flushing thousands of gallons of perfectly good ale down the drain regularly. Criminal. And when the hospitality taps are turned back on again (literally and figuratively) more ale will be needed to fill the pipes. Don't even get me started on food waste - at least lots of establishments are diversifying and offering takeaways but that doesn't work for all. Further up the supply chain there are lots of breeders/growers etc etc which are producing for all these outlets.
This isn't an industry operating like a light switch which you can turn on/off at will. |
Yep , I noticed the company shop at Middleton had a supply of whole beef fillet yesterday at £20 for at least 1.4 kg. Must have been destined for the catering trade. I know some venues haven’t cancelled bookings for after 16th December yet, but how difficult must it be to run a business like that, don’t order food and drink, and if allowed to open you miss out or take a chance and risk losing loads of dosh. | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:11 - Nov 27 with 1710 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 17:03 - Nov 27 by DaleiLama |
Mild lockdown? Does that mean we can still get bitter? Or are we bitter enough?
But seriously, it also affects breweries just as much - larger regionals are flushing thousands of gallons of perfectly good ale down the drain regularly. Criminal. And when the hospitality taps are turned back on again (literally and figuratively) more ale will be needed to fill the pipes. Don't even get me started on food waste - at least lots of establishments are diversifying and offering takeaways but that doesn't work for all. Further up the supply chain there are lots of breeders/growers etc etc which are producing for all these outlets.
This isn't an industry operating like a light switch which you can turn on/off at will. |
Instead of flushing good ale down the pan, i'm not sure (though there may be a perfectly good reason) why it can't be transported to retail outlets and served into containers to be enjoyed on a takeaway basis. That'd at least generate income. Some might say it'd be abused by houseparty people, but they can buy booze in a supermarket anyway | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:11 - Nov 27 with 1710 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 17:03 - Nov 27 by DaleiLama |
Mild lockdown? Does that mean we can still get bitter? Or are we bitter enough?
But seriously, it also affects breweries just as much - larger regionals are flushing thousands of gallons of perfectly good ale down the drain regularly. Criminal. And when the hospitality taps are turned back on again (literally and figuratively) more ale will be needed to fill the pipes. Don't even get me started on food waste - at least lots of establishments are diversifying and offering takeaways but that doesn't work for all. Further up the supply chain there are lots of breeders/growers etc etc which are producing for all these outlets.
This isn't an industry operating like a light switch which you can turn on/off at will. |
Other breweries seem to be selling direct to the public, 7 brothers and blackjack do. Others are bottling more. I’m getting some draught ale tomorrow which the Hare on the hill is canning for takeaway . £1.50 a go for Black Friday , at least they ain’t chucking it away | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:14 - Nov 27 with 1700 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 17:11 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
Other breweries seem to be selling direct to the public, 7 brothers and blackjack do. Others are bottling more. I’m getting some draught ale tomorrow which the Hare on the hill is canning for takeaway . £1.50 a go for Black Friday , at least they ain’t chucking it away |
We seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet - it can't last  | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:16 - Nov 27 with 1687 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 16:43 - Nov 27 by D_Alien |
R is now at or below 1 according to the latest figures
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55105285
Whilst this will largely be due to the latest lockdown, imo it'd be viable to put everyone into Tier 2 regs (including those in Tier 1) up till the 2 January, then put another lockdown in place. Hospitality is pretty quiet the first few weeks in January anyway. Yes, it'll probably put the rate back above 1 but there's talk of mass testing on the lines that've worked in Liverpool. There's no point (again imo) looking back at what might've or should've happened, but what needs to be done now to prevent huge swathes of vital hospitality going out of business, plus the damage to the social fabric. We're in a different place to where we were last March |
Agree, but there is already talk of having to prioritise areas for mass testing as there isn’t enough capacity for all tier 3 areas. | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:17 - Nov 27 with 1674 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 17:14 - Nov 27 by D_Alien |
We seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet - it can't last |
I know, I’ve just cracked open my first ale of the week, so who knows | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:22 - Nov 27 with 1660 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 17:16 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
Agree, but there is already talk of having to prioritise areas for mass testing as there isn’t enough capacity for all tier 3 areas. |
The gov will want to avoid another confrontation with Andy Burnham - and i think he would to. But GM has got to be one of the first in line for Liverpool-type testing
If the Tier 3 vote goes through, as things stand our transmission figures are coming down anyway, so if testing releases us into Tier 2 on 16 December that'll do me. Anything else may prove politically unsustainable
[Post edited 27 Nov 2020 17:22]
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| Fans allowed back on 17:25 - Nov 27 with 1647 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Fans allowed back on 17:22 - Nov 27 by D_Alien |
The gov will want to avoid another confrontation with Andy Burnham - and i think he would to. But GM has got to be one of the first in line for Liverpool-type testing
If the Tier 3 vote goes through, as things stand our transmission figures are coming down anyway, so if testing releases us into Tier 2 on 16 December that'll do me. Anything else may prove politically unsustainable
[Post edited 27 Nov 2020 17:22]
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I detected from listening to Andy that he was keen to avoid another set to, I think the last one took a huge toll on him, he looked broken at the end of it. I’m guessing that he has been told we can follow Liverpool if the figures allow( could be just wishful thinking on my part ) | |
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| Fans allowed back on 17:56 - Nov 27 with 1596 views | isitme |
| Fans allowed back on 17:16 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
Agree, but there is already talk of having to prioritise areas for mass testing as there isn’t enough capacity for all tier 3 areas. |
I propose a radical solution to this. Stop testing people without symptoms. |  | | |
| Fans allowed back on 18:12 - Nov 27 with 1576 views | D_Alien |
| Fans allowed back on 17:56 - Nov 27 by isitme |
I propose a radical solution to this. Stop testing people without symptoms. |
But it was precisely the identification of those in Liverpool who were asymptomatic but potentially spreading the virus that's allowed them to be placed in Tier 2 | |
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| Fans allowed back on 18:39 - Nov 27 with 1537 views | isitme |
| Fans allowed back on 18:12 - Nov 27 by D_Alien |
But it was precisely the identification of those in Liverpool who were asymptomatic but potentially spreading the virus that's allowed them to be placed in Tier 2 |
That is the government narrative. Have even more unreliable tests to earn a lower tier. I would love to follow the money. I know Imperial College whose models are always the most pessimistic are in partnership with one of the manufacturers of lateral flow tests.
Only 4% of those in the wards where cases were highest put themselves forward for the lateral flow test. In Liverpool cases were dropping anyway before wide scale testing. The only benefit of the lateral flow test is that it is not as sensitive as the PCR test of over 40 cycles so it detects fewer 'positive cases'. Hence the use of it showed Covid to have largely disappeared in Liverpool.
The problem with both tests is that they do not tell you who is infectious, which is what we really want to know. Neither test was made for the mass testing of asymptomatics. Also do asymptomatics actually spread the virus? [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 18:40]
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| Fans allowed back on 19:16 - Nov 27 with 1489 views | rochdaleriddler |
Seems fair although their immediate neighbours are in tier one | |
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| Fans allowed back on 19:35 - Nov 27 with 1457 views | downunder |
| Fans allowed back on 17:17 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
I know, I’ve just cracked open my first ale of the week, so who knows |
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| Fans allowed back on 20:10 - Nov 27 with 1428 views | tony_roch975 |
apparently there are 14 Boroughs in Tier 2 with a higher no of cases than Greater Manchester so case rates are not the determining factor in Tier allocation - case rates in the over 60s and hospital capacity seem more important; so if you have less hospital beds in your area you lose out twice over |  |
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| Fans allowed back on 20:29 - Nov 27 with 1405 views | nordenblue |
| Fans allowed back on 17:17 - Nov 27 by rochdaleriddler |
I know, I’ve just cracked open my first ale of the week, so who knows |
Your week starts on a Friday riddler? | | | |
| Fans allowed back on 20:39 - Nov 27 with 1398 views | isitme |
| Fans allowed back on 20:10 - Nov 27 by tony_roch975 |
apparently there are 14 Boroughs in Tier 2 with a higher no of cases than Greater Manchester so case rates are not the determining factor in Tier allocation - case rates in the over 60s and hospital capacity seem more important; so if you have less hospital beds in your area you lose out twice over |
It said in the notes that Pennie Trust and Manchester University Hospitals had a high number of patients, but I suppose they always do considering the areas they serve. What is probably a more accurate measure is demand above the usual. We do have a Nightingale hospital (presumably sitting empty) for 'Covid patients'. | | | |
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