| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up 13:13 - Sep 16 with 4880 views | TimTtam |
500,000 pounds of debt couldn't be paid. Owner is entirely to blame, but it's the fans who suffer.
Which club will be next? |  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 03:27 - Sep 17 with 1379 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 02:19 - Sep 17 by BarrySwan |
I see, so presumably you're hinting that perhaps paying tax is just for us mere mortals outside the world of football and resent the fact that the Swans had to hand over payment to the countries exchequer just like the rest of us, to help provide services, education and health etc etc??
Those of us who have supported the Swans for decades know the story word for word as we lived through it and don't have to lift the details off the internet as you have just done.
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with your patronising Good clubs like Swansea survive and poorly led clubs go bust line as if Macclesfield are any different to the Swans in being poorly run and led but survived purely by reneging on many of its debts which also undermine your comments about being a believer in free market capitalism. [Post edited 17 Sep 2020 2:24]
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Maccesfield went bust for one reason. They did not pay their tax bill. All other debts could have been negiociated. We all have to pay tax. Swansea survived because they paid their tax. I am not hinting at anything. The tax people were / are prefered creditors. Swansea were lucky to have Mr Nurse from what I have read. Without him the club was toast. It appears he created time to organise a consortium. Next time perhaps Swansea will not be so lucky, given the way the fans have treated the sellers. In 2003 Swansea and Maccessfield were at the same level. The comparison was based on the club management post 2003. Maccesfield's demise in Harrogate 's gain. Macc's gates were never much more than 2,000 and i cannot name one of their players or remember any of their wins. I have lost at least the same amount of money as the worst bad debt left by Swansea businesses outside previous owners in various investments. I accept the losses as a free marketeer and if I do not pay my taxes I will go bankrupt like Maccesfield. The creditors voluntarily took 5% to give the club a chance. Most will have got their losses back such as Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail. That is why they accepted the deal. Business is business and I applaud the new US investor putting his money and backing himself and the club. The Trust model is not working at Swansea and it has out lived its purpose. The only potential beneficaries of legal action are the public school smoothies advising them. That is not what they were set up for. |  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:24 - Sep 17 with 1304 views | Badlands |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 03:27 - Sep 17 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Maccesfield went bust for one reason. They did not pay their tax bill. All other debts could have been negiociated. We all have to pay tax. Swansea survived because they paid their tax. I am not hinting at anything. The tax people were / are prefered creditors. Swansea were lucky to have Mr Nurse from what I have read. Without him the club was toast. It appears he created time to organise a consortium. Next time perhaps Swansea will not be so lucky, given the way the fans have treated the sellers. In 2003 Swansea and Maccessfield were at the same level. The comparison was based on the club management post 2003. Maccesfield's demise in Harrogate 's gain. Macc's gates were never much more than 2,000 and i cannot name one of their players or remember any of their wins. I have lost at least the same amount of money as the worst bad debt left by Swansea businesses outside previous owners in various investments. I accept the losses as a free marketeer and if I do not pay my taxes I will go bankrupt like Maccesfield. The creditors voluntarily took 5% to give the club a chance. Most will have got their losses back such as Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail. That is why they accepted the deal. Business is business and I applaud the new US investor putting his money and backing himself and the club. The Trust model is not working at Swansea and it has out lived its purpose. The only potential beneficaries of legal action are the public school smoothies advising them. That is not what they were set up for. |
Strong post. |  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 11:37 - Sep 18 with 1252 views | Catullus |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 03:27 - Sep 17 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Maccesfield went bust for one reason. They did not pay their tax bill. All other debts could have been negiociated. We all have to pay tax. Swansea survived because they paid their tax. I am not hinting at anything. The tax people were / are prefered creditors. Swansea were lucky to have Mr Nurse from what I have read. Without him the club was toast. It appears he created time to organise a consortium. Next time perhaps Swansea will not be so lucky, given the way the fans have treated the sellers. In 2003 Swansea and Maccessfield were at the same level. The comparison was based on the club management post 2003. Maccesfield's demise in Harrogate 's gain. Macc's gates were never much more than 2,000 and i cannot name one of their players or remember any of their wins. I have lost at least the same amount of money as the worst bad debt left by Swansea businesses outside previous owners in various investments. I accept the losses as a free marketeer and if I do not pay my taxes I will go bankrupt like Maccesfield. The creditors voluntarily took 5% to give the club a chance. Most will have got their losses back such as Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail. That is why they accepted the deal. Business is business and I applaud the new US investor putting his money and backing himself and the club. The Trust model is not working at Swansea and it has out lived its purpose. The only potential beneficaries of legal action are the public school smoothies advising them. That is not what they were set up for. |
I never objected to them selling the club just to the way in which they did it, as in they fed the fans so much BS.
As I have said before, I also feel they sold the Americans a pup, they thought they were buying a stable EPL club, not a club in trouble as we obvioulsy were.
It would have been much better to acept the relegation was coming rather than to spurge millions we ddn't have on some ridiculous signings. Plenty on here were questioning some of our purchases, especially that nugget from Hull.
But then, I am one of those lunatics who prefers life in the EFL which is at least a proper competition and we are not cannon fodder for the rich clubs in a league set up for the rich boys. |  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:25 - Sep 18 with 1237 views | onehunglow |
Cat.I hate not being in the Prem.
I miss weekends in the likes of Newcastle ,a great city and fantastic football people,way different to the southern knobs of Wycombe ,for example.
Out demise was unforgivable and it will never leave me. Far worse than in the 80s.
I miss going to Anfield ,having prior beers with scousers then beating them then having a few more after the game. No problems at all.
I miss Old Trafford and beating the Mancs too.
All in all,I miss it badly. | |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:26 - Sep 18 with 1236 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 11:37 - Sep 18 by Catullus |
I never objected to them selling the club just to the way in which they did it, as in they fed the fans so much BS.
As I have said before, I also feel they sold the Americans a pup, they thought they were buying a stable EPL club, not a club in trouble as we obvioulsy were.
It would have been much better to acept the relegation was coming rather than to spurge millions we ddn't have on some ridiculous signings. Plenty on here were questioning some of our purchases, especially that nugget from Hull.
But then, I am one of those lunatics who prefers life in the EFL which is at least a proper competition and we are not cannon fodder for the rich clubs in a league set up for the rich boys. |
The US people are no mugs and have the lifestyle to prove it. Swansea is just one part of their portfolio that has dropped in value but still has great potential. Swansea fans have a knack of loving the club on one hand and denegrating in on the other. Swansea city was not a 'pup' but a very high risk investment suitable for very high risk investors always at risk from the calamatous relegation.
The biggest 'pup' is the fans themselves the 21% shareholder and only original investor to miss out from their own arrogance. The 1000 members are to blame for electing people with no vision or experience of the economic word around them. Even my late grandfather knew when to bring the hay in early on his farm near Llandeilo and knew if he did not only he woud be to blame. | |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:38 - Sep 18 with 1232 views | onehunglow |
Just felt it sad we need needed a Trust at all.
"To protect the club" is a shocking indictment of how devious some of our uber fans are.
Quite what the point of the Trust now is beyond me. | |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 19:01 - Sep 18 with 1195 views | Dr_Winston |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 11:37 - Sep 18 by Catullus |
I never objected to them selling the club just to the way in which they did it, as in they fed the fans so much BS.
As I have said before, I also feel they sold the Americans a pup, they thought they were buying a stable EPL club, not a club in trouble as we obvioulsy were.
It would have been much better to acept the relegation was coming rather than to spurge millions we ddn't have on some ridiculous signings. Plenty on here were questioning some of our purchases, especially that nugget from Hull.
But then, I am one of those lunatics who prefers life in the EFL which is at least a proper competition and we are not cannon fodder for the rich clubs in a league set up for the rich boys. |
Lot of sense in that. There's no reason why the previous owners couldn't have vastly enriched themselves without shitting all over the Trust in the process, and they should never be forgiven for it.
Likewise I don't doubt the much maligned Americans bought into something that wasn't quite as advertised, and to their credit (which many will never give them) they spent what they could when money was available and had the sense not to throw good money after bad when relegation hit. The kind of cuts they made under Birch may well have ensured the club's survival in the long run.
Disagree with the last point tho. The EFL is fine, but there's no point being in football unless you're striving to be at the highest level. I'd rather be losing to Liverpool than Luton. [Post edited 18 Sep 2020 20:38]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:52 - Sep 18 with 1165 views | Garyjack |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 03:27 - Sep 17 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Maccesfield went bust for one reason. They did not pay their tax bill. All other debts could have been negiociated. We all have to pay tax. Swansea survived because they paid their tax. I am not hinting at anything. The tax people were / are prefered creditors. Swansea were lucky to have Mr Nurse from what I have read. Without him the club was toast. It appears he created time to organise a consortium. Next time perhaps Swansea will not be so lucky, given the way the fans have treated the sellers. In 2003 Swansea and Maccessfield were at the same level. The comparison was based on the club management post 2003. Maccesfield's demise in Harrogate 's gain. Macc's gates were never much more than 2,000 and i cannot name one of their players or remember any of their wins. I have lost at least the same amount of money as the worst bad debt left by Swansea businesses outside previous owners in various investments. I accept the losses as a free marketeer and if I do not pay my taxes I will go bankrupt like Maccesfield. The creditors voluntarily took 5% to give the club a chance. Most will have got their losses back such as Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail. That is why they accepted the deal. Business is business and I applaud the new US investor putting his money and backing himself and the club. The Trust model is not working at Swansea and it has out lived its purpose. The only potential beneficaries of legal action are the public school smoothies advising them. That is not what they were set up for. |
That was not what they were set up for? So do you think Mel Nurse 'set up the consortium' for the sell outs to fill their bank accounts with £m's by selling out to a US hedgefund! Not a chance in hell, he set it up (if he did indeed set it up as they're your words not mine), with the intention that what had gone on in previous years, would never happen again, and that the club would be owned by the fans for the fans and remain in local ownership with the intention of securing the long term future and sustainability of Swansea City F.C. When those goals changed for the sell outs, it's fair too say that they also changed somewhat for the Trust in the way they were cruelly betrayed. You, are just full of shit. So full in fact that you don't even recognise that Harrogate's gain had nothing to do with Macclesfields demise you clown. [Post edited 18 Sep 2020 20:56]
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:00 - Sep 18 with 1149 views | builthjack |
2000 supporters putting £250 would have saved them.
Or £150 each if Sol Campbell wasn't such a greedy tw@t. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:00 - Sep 18 with 1149 views | NotLoyal |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:52 - Sep 18 by Garyjack |
That was not what they were set up for? So do you think Mel Nurse 'set up the consortium' for the sell outs to fill their bank accounts with £m's by selling out to a US hedgefund! Not a chance in hell, he set it up (if he did indeed set it up as they're your words not mine), with the intention that what had gone on in previous years, would never happen again, and that the club would be owned by the fans for the fans and remain in local ownership with the intention of securing the long term future and sustainability of Swansea City F.C. When those goals changed for the sell outs, it's fair too say that they also changed somewhat for the Trust in the way they were cruelly betrayed. You, are just full of shit. So full in fact that you don't even recognise that Harrogate's gain had nothing to do with Macclesfields demise you clown. [Post edited 18 Sep 2020 20:56]
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Mel was a one man band, the car park outside the vetch is something I could never get my head round. He didn't put together any consortium, that was Phil, Keith tenko, dineen, Richard Lillycrap, and numerous others, over many meetings and they played their cards brilliantly. You were obviously there at the time, and that's the main problem some of the younger fans were not. All they have is a PR film and rumour.
Everyone had the club at heart, well the people I know, there were of course anomalies 👠|  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:38 - Sep 18 with 1135 views | Garyjack |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:00 - Sep 18 by NotLoyal |
Mel was a one man band, the car park outside the vetch is something I could never get my head round. He didn't put together any consortium, that was Phil, Keith tenko, dineen, Richard Lillycrap, and numerous others, over many meetings and they played their cards brilliantly. You were obviously there at the time, and that's the main problem some of the younger fans were not. All they have is a PR film and rumour.
Everyone had the club at heart, well the people I know, there were of course anomalies 👠|
Of course Mel never put together a consortium. That's what i was trying to tell the idiot who thinks he 'knows the score'!
The car park was actually purchased and gifted to the club back in the Tosh days by the old Swansea City Supporters Club with the intention that the club would build a supporters club house. Of course with the demise this never happened. Apparently when Doug Sharpe took over, he tried to use the land to build houses on for personal gain, but was stopped from doing so. And without knowing the full details it was eventually purchased by Mel as part of the package of obtaining the club debt from Ninth floor to use against Petty.  | | | |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:10 - Sep 18 with 1109 views | KeithHaynes |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:00 - Sep 18 by builthjack |
2000 supporters putting £250 would have saved them.
Or £150 each if Sol Campbell wasn't such a greedy tw@t. |
Sometimes the fewer words used the better.
Agreed. |  |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:59 - Sep 18 with 1097 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:52 - Sep 18 by Garyjack |
That was not what they were set up for? So do you think Mel Nurse 'set up the consortium' for the sell outs to fill their bank accounts with £m's by selling out to a US hedgefund! Not a chance in hell, he set it up (if he did indeed set it up as they're your words not mine), with the intention that what had gone on in previous years, would never happen again, and that the club would be owned by the fans for the fans and remain in local ownership with the intention of securing the long term future and sustainability of Swansea City F.C. When those goals changed for the sell outs, it's fair too say that they also changed somewhat for the Trust in the way they were cruelly betrayed. You, are just full of shit. So full in fact that you don't even recognise that Harrogate's gain had nothing to do with Macclesfields demise you clown. [Post edited 18 Sep 2020 20:56]
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I never said Mr Nurse set up a consortium. I speculated he bought the time for a consortium to be set up from BBC report of the time. The club would have been obliterated without the money of the people laughingly labelled 'sellouts'. Its frankly astonishing to me the way they have been talked about on forums like this one.
The US consortium may or may not be set up like a hedgefund. It matters little in any case that is a private matter for them. Its a simple matter of fee arrangement for investors. ANYONE that buys shares in ANY company does so to make a profit. That is how the world turns even in South Wales. One of the so called 'sellouts' was a south African Venture capitalist!. Are you so green that you think he would not want to sell up while the club was in the Premier league? Venture capitalist sells shares shock horror!
The fans running the club were faced with the reality of competing with the likes of Chelsea who owe their owner £1.2 Billion and even Stoke city who own their owners £180m. After 14 years of continous success they cashed in to well established wealthy US sports investors not fly by nights. One of the owners has been at DC United for 8 years and built a new stadium. The forum sages said they would never invest any money in Swansea. Cue Covid and a chunky US loan they say they do not want back. The organisation set up the "save the club" does not even have a bean to contribute to the emmergency fund. How come?
The fans were able to share in the bounty "to protect the long term of the club" but failed, never discussing selling in the PL years 2010 until 2016. How can this be? Selling was a no brainer. A some point an 18 year old needs to look after himself. Suing Mama is not the best idea for the teenage brat that never wanted for anything.
Harrogate has joined the football league and Maccessfield have left the football leagues recently. I do not follow it in detail but it is reasionable to see the likes of Harrogate replacing Maccesfield. For every loser there is a winner. Thats the way it should be. Clubs associated with shady dealing tend not to do well as Swansea well aware of. Villification of the highly successful job creating previous owners gives hope to to the sharks that can easily dupe dim fans. Crickey there are loads of them. | |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:42 - Sep 19 with 1030 views | BarrySwan |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:59 - Sep 18 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I never said Mr Nurse set up a consortium. I speculated he bought the time for a consortium to be set up from BBC report of the time. The club would have been obliterated without the money of the people laughingly labelled 'sellouts'. Its frankly astonishing to me the way they have been talked about on forums like this one.
The US consortium may or may not be set up like a hedgefund. It matters little in any case that is a private matter for them. Its a simple matter of fee arrangement for investors. ANYONE that buys shares in ANY company does so to make a profit. That is how the world turns even in South Wales. One of the so called 'sellouts' was a south African Venture capitalist!. Are you so green that you think he would not want to sell up while the club was in the Premier league? Venture capitalist sells shares shock horror!
The fans running the club were faced with the reality of competing with the likes of Chelsea who owe their owner £1.2 Billion and even Stoke city who own their owners £180m. After 14 years of continous success they cashed in to well established wealthy US sports investors not fly by nights. One of the owners has been at DC United for 8 years and built a new stadium. The forum sages said they would never invest any money in Swansea. Cue Covid and a chunky US loan they say they do not want back. The organisation set up the "save the club" does not even have a bean to contribute to the emmergency fund. How come?
The fans were able to share in the bounty "to protect the long term of the club" but failed, never discussing selling in the PL years 2010 until 2016. How can this be? Selling was a no brainer. A some point an 18 year old needs to look after himself. Suing Mama is not the best idea for the teenage brat that never wanted for anything.
Harrogate has joined the football league and Maccessfield have left the football leagues recently. I do not follow it in detail but it is reasionable to see the likes of Harrogate replacing Maccesfield. For every loser there is a winner. Thats the way it should be. Clubs associated with shady dealing tend not to do well as Swansea well aware of. Villification of the highly successful job creating previous owners gives hope to to the sharks that can easily dupe dim fans. Crickey there are loads of them. |
Do you actually know anything about football?
The text of your posts is painfully stilted in a way that suggests that you don't even follow football and are a wind up merchant.
As has already been pointed out, Harrogate Town won promotion last year and are not replacing Macclesfield because of a liquidation, they were gaining entry to the League anyway whatever did or didn't happen tp Macclesfield.
You would know that if you were a football follower | | | |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 19:21 - Sep 19 with 1011 views | builthjack |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:10 - Sep 18 by KeithHaynes |
Sometimes the fewer words used the better.
Agreed. |
Why use 1000 words when a few will do.
I did say that to E20/Eamesy.
I don't think he took much notice. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 07:39 - Sep 20 with 986 views | Lohengrin |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:45 - Sep 16 by NotLoyal |
Sad day. |
Doesn’t it strike you as a pretty damning indictment of the inverted values of modern football, of the greed that has corrupted everything, that a club that has existed since 1874, a genuine community hub, should go to the wall for £100,000 less than Gareth Bale pockets every week?
There’s something deeply disturbing about that. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 09:22 - Sep 20 with 967 views | Fireboy2 |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 07:39 - Sep 20 by Lohengrin |
Doesn’t it strike you as a pretty damning indictment of the inverted values of modern football, of the greed that has corrupted everything, that a club that has existed since 1874, a genuine community hub, should go to the wall for £100,000 less than Gareth Bale pockets every week?
There’s something deeply disturbing about that. |
Agreed Loh, it's an absolute disgrace that the PL and especially the EFL let this happen.
Never mind the 'it's the clubs fault' bollox, the obscenely mega rich PL clubs and players should look after these small clubs in their hour of need and te EFL should get more involved in the running of lower league clubs. |  | | |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 09:36 - Sep 20 with 962 views | NotLoyal |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 09:22 - Sep 20 by Fireboy2 |
Agreed Loh, it's an absolute disgrace that the PL and especially the EFL let this happen.
Never mind the 'it's the clubs fault' bollox, the obscenely mega rich PL clubs and players should look after these small clubs in their hour of need and te EFL should get more involved in the running of lower league clubs. |
They don't mind fishing in these leagues for players for their academies, sending scouts etc to see what's on offer, but when it comes to help, it's non existent. | |
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| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 23:09 - Sep 20 with 918 views | Garyjack |
| Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:59 - Sep 18 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I never said Mr Nurse set up a consortium. I speculated he bought the time for a consortium to be set up from BBC report of the time. The club would have been obliterated without the money of the people laughingly labelled 'sellouts'. Its frankly astonishing to me the way they have been talked about on forums like this one.
The US consortium may or may not be set up like a hedgefund. It matters little in any case that is a private matter for them. Its a simple matter of fee arrangement for investors. ANYONE that buys shares in ANY company does so to make a profit. That is how the world turns even in South Wales. One of the so called 'sellouts' was a south African Venture capitalist!. Are you so green that you think he would not want to sell up while the club was in the Premier league? Venture capitalist sells shares shock horror!
The fans running the club were faced with the reality of competing with the likes of Chelsea who owe their owner £1.2 Billion and even Stoke city who own their owners £180m. After 14 years of continous success they cashed in to well established wealthy US sports investors not fly by nights. One of the owners has been at DC United for 8 years and built a new stadium. The forum sages said they would never invest any money in Swansea. Cue Covid and a chunky US loan they say they do not want back. The organisation set up the "save the club" does not even have a bean to contribute to the emmergency fund. How come?
The fans were able to share in the bounty "to protect the long term of the club" but failed, never discussing selling in the PL years 2010 until 2016. How can this be? Selling was a no brainer. A some point an 18 year old needs to look after himself. Suing Mama is not the best idea for the teenage brat that never wanted for anything.
Harrogate has joined the football league and Maccessfield have left the football leagues recently. I do not follow it in detail but it is reasionable to see the likes of Harrogate replacing Maccesfield. For every loser there is a winner. Thats the way it should be. Clubs associated with shady dealing tend not to do well as Swansea well aware of. Villification of the highly successful job creating previous owners gives hope to to the sharks that can easily dupe dim fans. Crickey there are loads of them. |
Fair play, you haven't got a fvcking clue what you are talking about. Get a job in a a Mumbai call centre because it seems you're scripted in the main. You're going over old ground that has been debated on here for years pal, and it goes around in a never ending circle.
But tell me one thing, whether the trust wanted to sell shares or not, do you honestly think for one minute that the sell outs acted in good faith by hiding the fact that they were selling 68% of shares in the club and also handing over the voting rights of their remaining shares rendering the trust shares worthless?
The trust of course being the 2nd biggest shareholder in the club after MM, who pretended he knew nothing about the sale until it was revealed at a meeting prior to the Chelsea game in April 2016.
You really do seem to have some sort of problem with the trust which is severely misconstrued. It is not just a committee, it is a group of people who represent the fans who put over £200k of money to save our club. Much more than the likes of Dineen or Jenkins put in, as is represented in their shareholding.
I beg of you to come out with something new, please enlighten us! In the meantime, and as i've asked you before, go bore the ass of someone else. Because seriously now, a you're tedious tvvat! [Post edited 20 Sep 2020 23:17]
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