| Interesting Trust Email 20:09 - Jun 29 with 137537 views | Neath_Jack |
Regarding the options open to us.
It's going to cause some massive debate on here i reckon  |  |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 00:10 - Jul 18 with 2768 views | Uxbridge |
| Interesting Trust Email on 00:07 - Jul 18 by Nookiejack |
I really don't understand this.
A dividend is a return on investment.
The 2014 and 2015 Trust accounts had dividends of circa £200k yet no tax was paid on these dividends?
Are you classifying dividends as Trading Profits that sounds very odd? |
You don't have to understand it Nookie. I'm stating the guidance from the Trusts accountants. I'm taking their word over you on this. |  |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 00:32 - Jul 18 with 2743 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 00:01 - Jul 18 by Uxbridge |
And yet, again, the guidance of the Trust accountants is that that is incorrect.
Anyway, I asked again earlier and the above was confirmed to me. As a not for profit, the Trust isn't subject to tax on its income but is subject to corporation tax on returns from investments, such as interest, not on trading profits, and is also subject to CGT. |
Here's the 2015 and 2014 Trust Accounts
http://www.swanstrust.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Trust-Audited-Accounts-20
http://www.swanstrust.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Trust-Audited-Accounts-Ma
Dividends appear to have been included as Other Operating income - rather than a return on investment.
Interest also is treated as Other Operating Income and no tax has been paid on it? However you just stated that the Trust does pay tax on interest - as interest is classified as a return on investment? |  | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 00:36 - Jul 18 with 2738 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 00:01 - Jul 18 by Uxbridge |
And yet, again, the guidance of the Trust accountants is that that is incorrect.
Anyway, I asked again earlier and the above was confirmed to me. As a not for profit, the Trust isn't subject to tax on its income but is subject to corporation tax on returns from investments, such as interest, not on trading profits, and is also subject to CGT. |
You say it's incorrect, and then state the Trust is subject to corporation tax which is exactly what I said?
From what you've now said, I imagine the Trust is a Community Interest Company for tax purposes with the assumption that it is not carrying out a taxable trade. That's not what was said before by the way, hence the questions.
I'd still expect some tax disclosure in the accounts btw, which was the point I made, but whatever. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 01:14 - Jul 18 with 2720 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 00:36 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
You say it's incorrect, and then state the Trust is subject to corporation tax which is exactly what I said?
From what you've now said, I imagine the Trust is a Community Interest Company for tax purposes with the assumption that it is not carrying out a taxable trade. That's not what was said before by the way, hence the questions.
I'd still expect some tax disclosure in the accounts btw, which was the point I made, but whatever. |
On a quick google CIC's only seem to be in place since 2005. (see page 3 of the attached)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/626088
Also from another google - CIC's I think are registered at Companies House? (I could be wrong on this)
Whereas The Trust seems to be registered with the PRA - see link to PRA register.
https://mutuals.fsa.gov.uk/SocietyDetails.aspx?Number=29289&Suffix=R
It would be great if someone could confirm what type of organisation the Trust is?
From the PRA register it appears to be a Community Benefit Society | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 04:54 - Jul 18 with 2689 views | NOTRAC |
The Trust cannot be a CIC as these began in 2005,and the Trust started in 2001/2.
It was originally registered under the Registrar of Friendly Societies and Industrial and Provident Societies Acts 1965-1979.
This act was consolidated in 2014 to the Cooperative and Communities Benefit Societies Act 2014 and it is under this legislation that the Trust is now registered (number 29289R)
Normally any organisation registered under this act is treated by the Revenue in the same way that they would treat a registered charity.This would give it exemption from capital gains tax.
However as the amounts involved could be very,very substantial in comparison to the original size of the Trust, the Revenue would look closely to see if the original aims of the Trust have changed (if not in word but in action ).This could lead them to disallow normal tax treatment and exemption relief.
It would be advisable therefore for the Trust to correspond with the Revenue to obtain from them if possible the conditions under which gains would continue to be treated as exempt [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 5:30]
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| Interesting Trust Email on 08:13 - Jul 18 with 2647 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 04:54 - Jul 18 by NOTRAC |
The Trust cannot be a CIC as these began in 2005,and the Trust started in 2001/2.
It was originally registered under the Registrar of Friendly Societies and Industrial and Provident Societies Acts 1965-1979.
This act was consolidated in 2014 to the Cooperative and Communities Benefit Societies Act 2014 and it is under this legislation that the Trust is now registered (number 29289R)
Normally any organisation registered under this act is treated by the Revenue in the same way that they would treat a registered charity.This would give it exemption from capital gains tax.
However as the amounts involved could be very,very substantial in comparison to the original size of the Trust, the Revenue would look closely to see if the original aims of the Trust have changed (if not in word but in action ).This could lead them to disallow normal tax treatment and exemption relief.
It would be advisable therefore for the Trust to correspond with the Revenue to obtain from them if possible the conditions under which gains would continue to be treated as exempt [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 5:30]
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Existing Industrial Provident Societies set up before 2005 were allowed to convert to CICs.
The tax treatment on Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies (which i mentioned when this first came up) is thatvthey are either taxable or not, depending on whether the Society has charitable status with the Revenue or not. That was how the question arose in the first place.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's about trying to weigh up the options, not about questioning everything that has gone before. The only reason for the question was clarification on what the Trust would receive now on sale or part sale as paying tax now and not before is unusual to say the least. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:37 - Jul 18 with 2618 views | NOTRAC |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:13 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Existing Industrial Provident Societies set up before 2005 were allowed to convert to CICs.
The tax treatment on Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies (which i mentioned when this first came up) is thatvthey are either taxable or not, depending on whether the Society has charitable status with the Revenue or not. That was how the question arose in the first place.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's about trying to weigh up the options, not about questioning everything that has gone before. The only reason for the question was clarification on what the Trust would receive now on sale or part sale as paying tax now and not before is unusual to say the least. |
The Trust has not paid any tax to date on its income as this would be shown in the Trusts accounts if this was the case. One would assume therefore that the 'charitable status' agreement has been reached with the Revenue if not every year ,at least at some time in the past.The Revenue do not normally request copies of accounts from Cooperative and Community Benefit Societies, but they do expect to be told if there are any major chahges either in income or in the aims of the Trust within the community.
The fact that we are talking about substantial sales of shares with the possibility under legal action of the aims of the Society changing No shares,no place on the Board,substantial reserves and changes in the distribution of income from the wealth accumulated from the sale of those shares,could well mean that the Revenue could change its mind about charitable status.
My point is that the Trust should establish its position with the Revenue on a partial sale basis as per their recommendation, and on a full sale basis if successful in a court action.
This should be known before members are expected to vote. | |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 08:44 - Jul 18 with 2606 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:37 - Jul 18 by NOTRAC |
The Trust has not paid any tax to date on its income as this would be shown in the Trusts accounts if this was the case. One would assume therefore that the 'charitable status' agreement has been reached with the Revenue if not every year ,at least at some time in the past.The Revenue do not normally request copies of accounts from Cooperative and Community Benefit Societies, but they do expect to be told if there are any major chahges either in income or in the aims of the Trust within the community.
The fact that we are talking about substantial sales of shares with the possibility under legal action of the aims of the Society changing No shares,no place on the Board,substantial reserves and changes in the distribution of income from the wealth accumulated from the sale of those shares,could well mean that the Revenue could change its mind about charitable status.
My point is that the Trust should establish its position with the Revenue on a partial sale basis as per their recommendation, and on a full sale basis if successful in a court action.
This should be known before members are expected to vote. |
Ux already confirmed no charitable status when I asked.
Which is why the question has arisen about no tax previously and his answer.
Charitable status is nothing to do with size and all to do with what money is used for. It not having charitable status is not a surprise to be honest, it's more surprising that no mention of tax has ever been made before.
But at the end of the day, if the questions have been asked and answered so be it. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:02 - Jul 18 with 2584 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:13 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Existing Industrial Provident Societies set up before 2005 were allowed to convert to CICs.
The tax treatment on Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies (which i mentioned when this first came up) is thatvthey are either taxable or not, depending on whether the Society has charitable status with the Revenue or not. That was how the question arose in the first place.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's about trying to weigh up the options, not about questioning everything that has gone before. The only reason for the question was clarification on what the Trust would receive now on sale or part sale as paying tax now and not before is unusual to say the least. |
Thanks for explaining Lisa. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:10 - Jul 18 with 2566 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:37 - Jul 18 by NOTRAC |
The Trust has not paid any tax to date on its income as this would be shown in the Trusts accounts if this was the case. One would assume therefore that the 'charitable status' agreement has been reached with the Revenue if not every year ,at least at some time in the past.The Revenue do not normally request copies of accounts from Cooperative and Community Benefit Societies, but they do expect to be told if there are any major chahges either in income or in the aims of the Trust within the community.
The fact that we are talking about substantial sales of shares with the possibility under legal action of the aims of the Society changing No shares,no place on the Board,substantial reserves and changes in the distribution of income from the wealth accumulated from the sale of those shares,could well mean that the Revenue could change its mind about charitable status.
My point is that the Trust should establish its position with the Revenue on a partial sale basis as per their recommendation, and on a full sale basis if successful in a court action.
This should be known before members are expected to vote. |
Notrac,
Doesn't the Trust need to establish the position with the Revenue under all options in contrast to just a partial sale?
For example if the Yanks sell and drag the Trust and the Trust has to sell all its shares. What is then the CHT position?
If the Trust makes the argument that any funds received from the sale of shares (under whatever option) will just be used just to reinvest back into the club at a later stage - then why would the Revenue then charge CGT - when the Trust similarly hasn't paid any tax from investment returns (interest and dividends) to date? | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:11 - Jul 18 with 2565 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:02 - Jul 18 by Nookiejack |
Thanks for explaining Lisa. |
I think explaining is the wrong word. Guessing would be more accurate.  | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:35 - Jul 18 with 2535 views | NOTRAC |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:44 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Ux already confirmed no charitable status when I asked.
Which is why the question has arisen about no tax previously and his answer.
Charitable status is nothing to do with size and all to do with what money is used for. It not having charitable status is not a surprise to be honest, it's more surprising that no mention of tax has ever been made before.
But at the end of the day, if the questions have been asked and answered so be it. |
When I mentioned size ,I meant the size of the available cash sitting as an investment in the accounts.Charity commissioners are not at all happy about Trusts having considerable sums that are not used to support the aims of the charity.
The situation on a partial sale and a complete sale is important.
Under the proposed partial sale the aims of the Trust can continue to be fully carried out.There would still be shares in Swansea City, a place on the Board and the promise of an involvement in the running of the club.
This would disappear if action is successful.
Therefore it could well be that the Revenue's attitude to a partial sale would be different to a complete sale. | |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 09:37 - Jul 18 with 2527 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:44 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Ux already confirmed no charitable status when I asked.
Which is why the question has arisen about no tax previously and his answer.
Charitable status is nothing to do with size and all to do with what money is used for. It not having charitable status is not a surprise to be honest, it's more surprising that no mention of tax has ever been made before.
But at the end of the day, if the questions have been asked and answered so be it. |
Lisa,
Sorry for continuing to raise this about tax and others will be bored when thread keeps discussing tax position.
However substantial amounts are at stake here circa 20% of £23m = £4.6m tax potentially to paid?
So post tax position of options seems to be key (if CGT) is payable.
If the Trust hasn't got charitable status - could it obtain it to save £4.6m?
How long would it take to obtain?
Also Shaky has previously mentioned litigation could take 2 years to go to court. The Trust could obtain charitable status by then and save £4.6m and especially circa £1m of tax on the upfront option. (£5.5m at 20%).
One would also assume The Trust would have substantially more influence during this 2 year period than it has now. (Yanks would find it very difficult to sell or make strategic decisions with legal action pending). So those wanting the Trust to have influence will also be very happy. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:49 - Jul 18 with 2510 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:35 - Jul 18 by NOTRAC |
When I mentioned size ,I meant the size of the available cash sitting as an investment in the accounts.Charity commissioners are not at all happy about Trusts having considerable sums that are not used to support the aims of the charity.
The situation on a partial sale and a complete sale is important.
Under the proposed partial sale the aims of the Trust can continue to be fully carried out.There would still be shares in Swansea City, a place on the Board and the promise of an involvement in the running of the club.
This would disappear if action is successful.
Therefore it could well be that the Revenue's attitude to a partial sale would be different to a complete sale. |
Uxbridge has already confirmed the Trust don't have charitable status for tax purposes, so it's irrelevant. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:54 - Jul 18 with 2506 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:37 - Jul 18 by Nookiejack |
Lisa,
Sorry for continuing to raise this about tax and others will be bored when thread keeps discussing tax position.
However substantial amounts are at stake here circa 20% of £23m = £4.6m tax potentially to paid?
So post tax position of options seems to be key (if CGT) is payable.
If the Trust hasn't got charitable status - could it obtain it to save £4.6m?
How long would it take to obtain?
Also Shaky has previously mentioned litigation could take 2 years to go to court. The Trust could obtain charitable status by then and save £4.6m and especially circa £1m of tax on the upfront option. (£5.5m at 20%).
One would also assume The Trust would have substantially more influence during this 2 year period than it has now. (Yanks would find it very difficult to sell or make strategic decisions with legal action pending). So those wanting the Trust to have influence will also be very happy. |
I've no idea whether the Trust could obtain charitable status. I can't imagine why it could to be honest.
Owning a premier league football club doesn't strike me as a particularly charitable activity. The ONLY reason I ever thought it had that status was the absence of any accounting for tax.
Anyway - Phil S said on this thread that full details of all options would be included in a pack. I imagine this would be part of it. | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 10:13 - Jul 18 with 2484 views | NOTRAC |
| Interesting Trust Email on 09:49 - Jul 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Uxbridge has already confirmed the Trust don't have charitable status for tax purposes, so it's irrelevant. |
There is a difference in the Trust having charitable status for tax purposes or not and not ever having applied for it.
Each accounts would be assessed on its own merits . [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 10:18]
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| Interesting Trust Email on 10:19 - Jul 18 with 2473 views | Dewi1jack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 17:04 - Jul 17 by Phil_S |
In short, no.
There is a detailed pack that is being prepared to be sent to each member which will include
* Details of what has happened and what the views/updates are from the Trust board
* Pros and cons of each option in both detailed and simplified format
* Ballot paper allowing you to make your choices and cast your vote
There will almost certainly be a forum too where members can attend and ask any further questions that they may have before making the vote as well as the options to raise questions via the Trust website |
Thanks Phil, Ux, Matt and others from the Trust for trying to answer questions.
My thanks to all at the Trust for working so hard with sometimes only abuse as thanks as well.
Well done to all on here who haven't been abusive for what may sound like sillyish questions as well.
As these packs are (I'm assuming here) going to take a couple of/ few weeks to put together and post out, therefore taking us into the start of the season,
Would it be possible to arrange a forum on the Saturday prior to (sh1t that's going to be an early leave from leominster!!)/ after the Utd game to ensure as many people can attend as possible?
I know that the Trust members already have to give up enough family time and that is very much appreciated by the majority of us and that this request may seem like I'm taking the p by asking for more, but this really does seem like a very important forum to get to. |  |
| If you wake up breathing, thats a good start to your day and you'll make many thousands of people envious. |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 10:56 - Jul 18 with 2445 views | Uxbridge |
| Interesting Trust Email on 10:13 - Jul 18 by NOTRAC |
There is a difference in the Trust having charitable status for tax purposes or not and not ever having applied for it.
Each accounts would be assessed on its own merits . [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 10:18]
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One final post from me on this particular aspect as there's not a lot else I can add. The Trust has spoken with HMRC previously on this. Not to say such things shouldn't be constantly reviewed especially with the potential changes in circumstances, but they have taken place in the past. | |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 19:21 - Jul 18 with 2348 views | MattG |
| Interesting Trust Email on 10:19 - Jul 18 by Dewi1jack |
Thanks Phil, Ux, Matt and others from the Trust for trying to answer questions.
My thanks to all at the Trust for working so hard with sometimes only abuse as thanks as well.
Well done to all on here who haven't been abusive for what may sound like sillyish questions as well.
As these packs are (I'm assuming here) going to take a couple of/ few weeks to put together and post out, therefore taking us into the start of the season,
Would it be possible to arrange a forum on the Saturday prior to (sh1t that's going to be an early leave from leominster!!)/ after the Utd game to ensure as many people can attend as possible?
I know that the Trust members already have to give up enough family time and that is very much appreciated by the majority of us and that this request may seem like I'm taking the p by asking for more, but this really does seem like a very important forum to get to. |
The documents were finalised yesterday and sent for printing today so hopefully it won't be too long before they are landing on people's doormats.
There is a Forum planned for next Thursday (although that may be TBC) so that people have another chance to ask questions before submitting their ballot papers. |  | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:09 - Jul 19 with 2246 views | Vetchfielder |
| Interesting Trust Email on 19:21 - Jul 18 by MattG |
The documents were finalised yesterday and sent for printing today so hopefully it won't be too long before they are landing on people's doormats.
There is a Forum planned for next Thursday (although that may be TBC) so that people have another chance to ask questions before submitting their ballot papers. |
Thanks Matt
Will we have received the options pack in advance of the meeting ?
Are the voting papers individually numbered/identified? |  |
| Proud to have been one of the 231 |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 08:21 - Jul 19 with 2235 views | Phil_S |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:09 - Jul 19 by Vetchfielder |
Thanks Matt
Will we have received the options pack in advance of the meeting ?
Are the voting papers individually numbered/identified? |
In short, yes and yes. |  | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:53 - Jul 19 with 2206 views | Vetchfielder |
| Interesting Trust Email on 08:21 - Jul 19 by Phil_S |
In short, yes and yes. |
Thanks Phil | |
| Proud to have been one of the 231 |
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| Interesting Trust Email on 14:25 - Jul 21 with 2054 views | cimlajack |
Decision day is rapidly approaching,my voting papers arrived today.
There is nothing in the papers i received today that was news to me,every aspect has been covered in this thread,in detail.
Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread  | | | |
| Interesting Trust Email on 23:06 - Jul 22 with 1966 views | Nookiejack |
| Interesting Trust Email on 12:14 - Jul 4 by Uxbridge |
That's simply not true. With a full sale, which legal action may or may not bring depending on it's success, then the Trust definitely is out. With the part sale, then the Trust is involved until there is a sale. Beyond that, then yes it is quite possible. But it is not certain.
Your last sentence is nonsense though. There is absolutely no indication, and little likelihood, that the Americans will look to flip in the immediate future. The very offer we're looking at has staged payments over 5 years. They're looking at stadium expansion, taking over the lease. All indications are that they are not planning to go anywhere in the next 24 months.
I don't like the drag along clause. However to say it means less involvement than legal action is literally the most misleading thing anyone has written on this thread, and that includes anything about Jenkins. [Post edited 4 Jul 2017 12:20]
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Who Knows Ux???
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/swansea-city-dismiss-shock-reports-1 | | | |
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