| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? 23:21 - Mar 30 with 4084 views | NOTRAC |
Today on the media, the talk has been about two managers,Rodgers and Martinez.Because of their current success they are both being classed as great managers, yet not a word has been said bout the part that Swansea has played in their development.
When Swansea picked Rodgers he was a down and out, a virtual unknown.A manager who had been out of work for almost a year,a manager that no one wanted.
Likewise Martinez was a nobody .A player who was coming to the end of a fairly undistinguished career as a player,but who did have media value for his knowledge of Spanish football.
The odds on either becoming two of the best managers in the Premiership would have been about a million to one.
So were they great managers in the making who would have succeeded wherever they went, or was it Swansea that actually made them what they are today.
Before Martinez ' appointment, and especially before Rodgers appointment we were already climbing the tables,we were already a very good side. Indeed the backbone of our present team was already in place.
Whilst I accept that both contributed hugely to our success, there is also no doubt in my mind that we contributed hugely to theirs.
Is there something magical about Swansea and our set up and philosophy that helps to create great managers.
I suppose the real test would be if we retained Gary Monk for next season and we succeeded under him. He has started poorly as far as results are concerned but there is no doubt he appears to be learning fast, and the quality of the football and the player performance he is now generating could see us climb the table, and lead to his retension for next year.
One thing is certain, whoever we appoint as manager for next year could not have a better chance to enhance their future careers |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:41 - Mar 31 with 1045 views | Spratty |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 08:08 - Mar 31 by Shaky |
I personally think this is fairly dangerous nonsense akin to what is known as exceptionalism or magical thinking if you like.
To the believers I would ask 2 questions: What specific knowledge or skills do you believe is being transferred to these mangers, and what exactly is the transfer mechanism? |
For Bren it was timing, opportunity and shop window and of course basing much of his footballing philosophy on the Roberto plan.
The fact that he exploited all this to best advantage - all his own "magic". |  | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:44 - Mar 31 with 1042 views | Spratty |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:38 - Mar 31 by MattG |
Depends on your starting point. |
In this case statistically speaking the hurdle was set below ground level, with the added advantage of a fully fit team and no other distractions. | | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:45 - Mar 31 with 1047 views | acejack3065 |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:41 - Mar 31 by Spratty |
For Bren it was timing, opportunity and shop window and of course basing much of his footballing philosophy on the Roberto plan.
The fact that he exploited all this to best advantage - all his own "magic". |
I wouldn't call promotion and an 11th place Prem finish exploitation on Brendans part. |  | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:51 - Mar 31 with 1040 views | MattG |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:44 - Mar 31 by Spratty |
In this case statistically speaking the hurdle was set below ground level, with the added advantage of a fully fit team and no other distractions. |
Agree about the team, less so about the distractions (as we were still in the EL when the bar was set) and feel you also need to consider momentum. Let's not get into another Laudrup / Monk debate, though.
Going back to the OP, someone posted earlier that, without each other, all parties would probably have ended up in the same place although it would have taken longer all round. Sounds about right to me with Martinez (IMO) the most likely to have got there first. |  | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:52 - Mar 31 with 1035 views | Spratty |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:45 - Mar 31 by acejack3065 |
I wouldn't call promotion and an 11th place Prem finish exploitation on Brendans part. |
Back in the cage tiger. You are reading an "his" advantage where no his was included and only intended in so much as "our" advantage was too. That's why I merely put best advantage.
Bren is a self serving bullshit merchant - but he is also very likable and did brilliantly for us. Never lost faith for one minute when following him for many, many away games without a win in the prem.
p.s. can see why you read it this way as the first bit of my post was all about what Bren gained (because of the question it was in answer to) [Post edited 31 Mar 2014 13:59]
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 14:05 - Mar 31 with 1002 views | JackSomething |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:52 - Mar 31 by Spratty |
Back in the cage tiger. You are reading an "his" advantage where no his was included and only intended in so much as "our" advantage was too. That's why I merely put best advantage.
Bren is a self serving bullshit merchant - but he is also very likable and did brilliantly for us. Never lost faith for one minute when following him for many, many away games without a win in the prem.
p.s. can see why you read it this way as the first bit of my post was all about what Bren gained (because of the question it was in answer to) [Post edited 31 Mar 2014 13:59]
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Many, many games? It was 9 before we won at Villa. That included trips to Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton, plus the farcical throwing away of three points at Wolves.
Far more was made of that stat in the media at the time than was justified and it's apparently still being over emphasised by some.
We went 7 games without winning away last year under Laudrup, just for one example. For another, we're currently 10 games without a win, spanning two managers. |  |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 14:23 - Mar 31 with 974 views | snork44 |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 10:44 - Mar 31 by icecoldjack |
The club had built up fantastic momentum and was on the march to higher leagues,the appointment of judas 1 was a shrewd one as he knew the players could play his brand of football.
Overall it's a mix of a lot of factors but momentum in a football club is a key ingredient for success,this where the club were smart with jacket, as we started to stall he was pushed out.
Martinez under wigan was nothing special but I guesshewould lose players and work to a small budget there,the momentum was in reverse when he went there where perhaps at everton the club was moving in the right direction already,not unlike we were when he came to us.
I guess timing plays a crucial part and also making the right choices. If Martinez went to villa they would still be lower prem standard,everton had plenty of talent to work with.
Rodgers steered away from spurs to Liverpool ,perhaps knowing the pressure was actually going to be a bit less in terms of instant results.
His second full season has seen him go from hero to zero where as if he went to spurs he would perhaps be on the dole now ?
Both smart guys that's for sure. |
Spurs would have been the better fit for Brendan actually as the players there were more akin to the 'Swansea way' than the players at Liverpool at the time, it was assumed that 'Arry would have had the England job that Rodgers took the tenure at Anfield. It has taken 2 years for Brendan to get Liverpool playing the way, he wants and he is reaping the rewards. He has proved me wrong and he looks like he is on his way to either winning the league or almost certainly qualifying for the Champions league. I can see Martinez also qualifying for a Champions league spot, so great success for both managers this season. I just hope the Swans can one day emulate both clubs achievements. [Post edited 1 Apr 2014 0:42]
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 15:02 - Mar 31 with 927 views | Spratty |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 14:05 - Mar 31 by JackSomething |
Many, many games? It was 9 before we won at Villa. That included trips to Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton, plus the farcical throwing away of three points at Wolves.
Far more was made of that stat in the media at the time than was justified and it's apparently still being over emphasised by some.
We went 7 games without winning away last year under Laudrup, just for one example. For another, we're currently 10 games without a win, spanning two managers. |
That's nearly 5 months and a lot of miles on the clock especially when waiting for a first win in the PL.
No problem to me and delighted when we finally won away. Never said it was a poor performance and of course against some good quality opposition. Just commenting how long it seemed when hoping to get a first PL away win on the board.
Funnily enough Chelsea was one that stands out as concerning to me it was the only game where I felt we were overwhelmed.
I think "some" are entitled to have their own opinion of the length of time, when they travelled to almost all of those games and got enthusiastically behind the team at every game.
Last year we had the excitement of the COC but not picking up your 7 away games on the run. Similarly we have won none of MonK's 6 away nor West Ham but we had 2 away wins in Jan so not following. But really that is beside the point as I was just referring to the wait for the excitement of our first win in the Prem not starting some p1ssing contest. Naturally as PL newbies it was going to be harder. | | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 15:05 - Mar 31 with 926 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
Roberto started the brand of football we have become world renound for .
Yes well done to Flynn & jacket but it's Roberto who kick started our possession game .
All this he invented passing sarcasm is pretty poor form |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 17:35 - Mar 31 with 874 views | Davillin |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 10:26 - Mar 31 by Uxbridge |
We were good for them, and they were good for us. By Rodgers' own admission he was going to accept a coaching job elsewhere as he didn't think he'd get another shot at management after his Reading tenure. Couple that with him falling into a position where expectations were inexplicably low despite consecutive top 8 finishes and it was the perfect environment to look good and rehabilitate his image. Done a good job here of course, but if you're asking me who has most to thank the other party for, it's Rodgers.
With Martinez, who knows what would have happened there. Would he have gone back to Spain or got another management job elsewhere? No doubt getting a plum job here straight away shaved a few years off his apprenticeship but would he have eventually got there anyway?
Opportunity really. We gave then one when probably nobody else would have, and we also significantly benefited from it. |
So far, this has been one of the best threads in a long time. Temperate, thoughtful, and rational.
With respect to the others, I have to say that in my view, this post [above] says it best. Thanks, Uxbdridge, and the others. |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 18:06 - Mar 31 with 853 views | dgt73 |
Both helped Swansea, no doubt about that, but lets not forget where both were before Swansea came calling, martinez was playing with Chester and Rodgers was unemployed. Both fell and landed on their feet when they were given the Swans job. Good luck to them. |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 18:25 - Mar 31 with 833 views | quiff |
Overall I'd say Martinez as he left more of an imprint overall, but Brendan did a huge amount for us and got us up to the promised land.
One things for sure, they will both be talked about as Swansea greats when I'm old and grey, and rightly so. | |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:32 - Apr 1 with 775 views | JackSomething |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 15:02 - Mar 31 by Spratty |
That's nearly 5 months and a lot of miles on the clock especially when waiting for a first win in the PL.
No problem to me and delighted when we finally won away. Never said it was a poor performance and of course against some good quality opposition. Just commenting how long it seemed when hoping to get a first PL away win on the board.
Funnily enough Chelsea was one that stands out as concerning to me it was the only game where I felt we were overwhelmed.
I think "some" are entitled to have their own opinion of the length of time, when they travelled to almost all of those games and got enthusiastically behind the team at every game.
Last year we had the excitement of the COC but not picking up your 7 away games on the run. Similarly we have won none of MonK's 6 away nor West Ham but we had 2 away wins in Jan so not following. But really that is beside the point as I was just referring to the wait for the excitement of our first win in the Prem not starting some p1ssing contest. Naturally as PL newbies it was going to be harder. |
'Not picking up your 7 away games on the run'
12/1/13 - Everton - Drew 0-0
29/01/13 - Sunderland - Drew 0-0
02/02/13 - West Ham - Lost 1-0
17/02/13 - Liverpool - Lost 5-0
09/03/13 - West Brom - Lost 2-1
06/04/13 - Norwich - Drew 2-2
28/04/13 - Chelsea - Lost 2-0
We then beat Wigan.
The two away wins in Jan you mention were both in the FA Cup and the League Cup wins last year also don't count as you specifically referred in the original posts to Brendan's 'many, many away games without a win in the prem'. Brendan only had 1 away cup game before beating Aston Villa, which was admittedly the shambolic loss to Shrewsbury. The next game we played after beating Villa, we beat Barnsely away in the FA Cup.
With respect, it seemed that what you were referring to in reality was yet another attempt to promote Laudrup ahead of any of our other managers. The agenda is getting tiring. | |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 17:48 - Apr 1 with 719 views | Spratty |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:32 - Apr 1 by JackSomething |
'Not picking up your 7 away games on the run'
12/1/13 - Everton - Drew 0-0
29/01/13 - Sunderland - Drew 0-0
02/02/13 - West Ham - Lost 1-0
17/02/13 - Liverpool - Lost 5-0
09/03/13 - West Brom - Lost 2-1
06/04/13 - Norwich - Drew 2-2
28/04/13 - Chelsea - Lost 2-0
We then beat Wigan.
The two away wins in Jan you mention were both in the FA Cup and the League Cup wins last year also don't count as you specifically referred in the original posts to Brendan's 'many, many away games without a win in the prem'. Brendan only had 1 away cup game before beating Aston Villa, which was admittedly the shambolic loss to Shrewsbury. The next game we played after beating Villa, we beat Barnsely away in the FA Cup.
With respect, it seemed that what you were referring to in reality was yet another attempt to promote Laudrup ahead of any of our other managers. The agenda is getting tiring. |
Thanks for that, as you just referred to games, I was looking at the list of all games. I did indeed refer to first PL win but I was not comparing Bren to other managers as you were when you just referred to games.
I was certainly not trying to put Rodgers contribution down nor did I compare him unfavourably with other managers. I actually was very complimentary about what Bren did for us (I think anyone would have to be very biased not to be). Objectively we did have the worst away record in the PL at that time and that made it seem more important to get our first win as we came to the mid-point of the season. But we were newly promoted and as I said I never lost faith whilst travelling to the matches over those months. To compare those initial results of a newly promoted team less favourably to a more established team would not make common sense and it was you not I making comparisons. I also remember our second away win in the snow; these things stick in my mind because it was such a fantastic achievement to be playing at the top level again after so many years. Did you travel to those games, if so were you not itching for us to get our first win?
Your conclusion re my motive is ridiculous. If you asked me to compare the importance of the contribution of managers in our recent rise it would be Martinez first and Rodgers second (even though some of his self-serving bullshit made me cringe). I have always said how lucky Laudrup was to come to our club, it was a perfect fit for him and it was at that stage because of the brilliant achievements of previous managers. Although the cup win was a new pinnacle and lead to our fantastic European adventure; the playoff final was far more significant to me and I would certainly pick that as my favourite Wembley memory.
Please point out where I have ever promoted Laudrup above our previous managers. In a very recent post I wrote “it has been said” that it was our most successful year. I carefully put that because whilst that certainly can and has been said, I specifically didn’t want to belittle the considerable successes of our previous managers.
The revisionists and those that choose to support our current manager by belittling and lying about our previous one have been tiresome for weeks now. The only agenda I have is to counter such unfairness with facts, evidence and the potential scenarios these point to. I certainly do not start threads about this as others do — so I am only responding to the comments of others as I detest unfairness and lies. | | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 20:54 - Apr 1 with 699 views | Davillin |
Spratty, you wrote, "The only agenda I have is to counter such unfairness with facts, evidence and the potential scenarios these point to. I certainly do not start threads about this as others do — so I am only responding to the comments of others as I detest unfairness and lies."
You'll get over that Quixotic attitude soon enough, but fair dues for trying. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.  | |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:36 - Apr 2 with 660 views | JackSomething |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 17:48 - Apr 1 by Spratty |
Thanks for that, as you just referred to games, I was looking at the list of all games. I did indeed refer to first PL win but I was not comparing Bren to other managers as you were when you just referred to games.
I was certainly not trying to put Rodgers contribution down nor did I compare him unfavourably with other managers. I actually was very complimentary about what Bren did for us (I think anyone would have to be very biased not to be). Objectively we did have the worst away record in the PL at that time and that made it seem more important to get our first win as we came to the mid-point of the season. But we were newly promoted and as I said I never lost faith whilst travelling to the matches over those months. To compare those initial results of a newly promoted team less favourably to a more established team would not make common sense and it was you not I making comparisons. I also remember our second away win in the snow; these things stick in my mind because it was such a fantastic achievement to be playing at the top level again after so many years. Did you travel to those games, if so were you not itching for us to get our first win?
Your conclusion re my motive is ridiculous. If you asked me to compare the importance of the contribution of managers in our recent rise it would be Martinez first and Rodgers second (even though some of his self-serving bullshit made me cringe). I have always said how lucky Laudrup was to come to our club, it was a perfect fit for him and it was at that stage because of the brilliant achievements of previous managers. Although the cup win was a new pinnacle and lead to our fantastic European adventure; the playoff final was far more significant to me and I would certainly pick that as my favourite Wembley memory.
Please point out where I have ever promoted Laudrup above our previous managers. In a very recent post I wrote “it has been said” that it was our most successful year. I carefully put that because whilst that certainly can and has been said, I specifically didn’t want to belittle the considerable successes of our previous managers.
The revisionists and those that choose to support our current manager by belittling and lying about our previous one have been tiresome for weeks now. The only agenda I have is to counter such unfairness with facts, evidence and the potential scenarios these point to. I certainly do not start threads about this as others do — so I am only responding to the comments of others as I detest unfairness and lies. |
'The revisionists and those that choose to support our current manager by belittling and lying about our previous one have been tiresome for weeks now.'
I completely agree with you there. Just as tedious are those who take every opportunity to knock Monk, which is a group you were very much a part of initially, although I do acknowledge you have eased off a bit recently.
Your original post read to me as dig on Brendan for our initial away record in the Prem. If it wasn't meant that way, then no harm, no foul. Either way, nice to debate with you without resorting to insults, even if we do disagree on an issue. | |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:46 - Apr 2 with 657 views | ItchySphincter |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:36 - Apr 2 by JackSomething |
'The revisionists and those that choose to support our current manager by belittling and lying about our previous one have been tiresome for weeks now.'
I completely agree with you there. Just as tedious are those who take every opportunity to knock Monk, which is a group you were very much a part of initially, although I do acknowledge you have eased off a bit recently.
Your original post read to me as dig on Brendan for our initial away record in the Prem. If it wasn't meant that way, then no harm, no foul. Either way, nice to debate with you without resorting to insults, even if we do disagree on an issue. |
Well said. |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 12:32 - Apr 2 with 631 views | Catullus |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 23:27 - Mar 30 by Private_Partz |
I think it is a bit of both. BR and RM were in complete control however. The same with ML. I hope this proven system continues and we do not have a 'hands on board' as has been suggested is our new way of thinking on here. |
Agree with this.
When they took charge it was the right people in the right place and at the right time, for all of us.
Without them we may not have made it this far, and maybe neither would they. | |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 13:17 - Apr 2 with 621 views | Yougle |
Roberto made us play the fluid passing game as we still do today. Any of his predecessors gave it their own little twists here an there.
No other club would pick Brendan after two unsuccessful spells at Reading and Watford, but we did and it's fair to say that his philosophy suited us really well.
Roberto made us and with that he made himself attractive for other clubs. We restored Brendan's career by showing faith in him when nobody else would and look where he is now! |  | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 15:33 - Apr 2 with 603 views | C_jack |
J.W Thorpe is the only one who ever made us. |  |
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| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 18:01 - Apr 2 with 573 views | paulv2k4 |
They both contributed heavily for our climb to the Premier League and I for one am happy seeing them do so well in such distinguished clubs since they have left.
I especially adore the fact all Liverpool fans, who hated the hiring of Rodgers, now love him after this season's success. Also well done to the Liverpool directors for sticking by him while the transition occurred.
Rodgers has done an excellent job with Suarez. Keeping him focused this season has worked wonders. | | | |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 09:44 - Apr 3 with 543 views | Catullus |
| Martinez and Rodgers.Did we make them or did they make us? on 18:01 - Apr 2 by paulv2k4 |
They both contributed heavily for our climb to the Premier League and I for one am happy seeing them do so well in such distinguished clubs since they have left.
I especially adore the fact all Liverpool fans, who hated the hiring of Rodgers, now love him after this season's success. Also well done to the Liverpool directors for sticking by him while the transition occurred.
Rodgers has done an excellent job with Suarez. Keeping him focused this season has worked wonders. |
Some people don't like Rodgers because he left us, and how he did it. But he has shown he is a very good manager, if a bit cliche riddled, he loves his "group" but there's no doubting (in my mind) he would have taken a lot longer to get a top job if we hadn't given him a chance, he may never have managed in the Premier at all.
Jenkins and the board have shown a real eye for good potential managers. Lets hope they are 100% spot on again with Monk.
Of the two of them, I think Martinez did more for us than Rodgers did, and more for us than we did for him too. Jackett had stabilised us and given us a strong base to build on but martinez took us to the next level | |
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