| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? 21:54 - Apr 3 with 7914 views | ladyjack |
What have the Tories done with the 350M a week that the NHS was apparently going to have for us leaving the EU ? |  | | |  |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 16:11 - Apr 5 with 1087 views | Kerouac |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 15:27 - Apr 5 by LeonWasGod |
No, I'm not. |
So what are the "underlying issues blown open by Covid 19" then?
Be specific, no rhetoric please. |  |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 17:52 - Apr 5 with 1042 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 13:01 - Apr 5 by exiledclaseboy |
We’re out. Simple fact. The UK is not a member of the EU. |
But still paying in as was agreed.
Since 11pm, 29 March 2019,when we should have left, the UK has paid the EU £12,388,921,945.67. This could've paid for 137 new hospitals, 538,648 nurses, 470,149 policemen, or even the repair of 233,753,244 potholes. A single pile of what we've paid in £20 notes would be 43.49 miles tall.
I will leave you to work out how much we have paid since January. |  | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 17:53 - Apr 5 with 1038 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 17:52 - Apr 5 by A_Fans_Dad |
But still paying in as was agreed.
Since 11pm, 29 March 2019,when we should have left, the UK has paid the EU £12,388,921,945.67. This could've paid for 137 new hospitals, 538,648 nurses, 470,149 policemen, or even the repair of 233,753,244 potholes. A single pile of what we've paid in £20 notes would be 43.49 miles tall.
I will leave you to work out how much we have paid since January. |
I’m not disputing it. We’re still not members of the EU. |  |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 18:12 - Apr 5 with 1022 views | Gwyn737 |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 16:11 - Apr 5 by Kerouac |
So what are the "underlying issues blown open by Covid 19" then?
Be specific, no rhetoric please. |
Nobody seems to be suggesting that the NHS could have ever run with the capacity to deal with an unprecedented global pandemic.
It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries. | | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 21:17 - Apr 5 with 957 views | Nortbankboy |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 18:12 - Apr 5 by Gwyn737 |
Nobody seems to be suggesting that the NHS could have ever run with the capacity to deal with an unprecedented global pandemic.
It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries. |
I remember that.all of them cheering when they won the votes to
Keep down nurses salaries.
Now they r calling them heroes the hypocrisy of it all | | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 01:44 - Apr 6 with 913 views | Kerouac |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 18:12 - Apr 5 by Gwyn737 |
Nobody seems to be suggesting that the NHS could have ever run with the capacity to deal with an unprecedented global pandemic.
It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries. |
"It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
...in England the NHS wasn't cut at all, it was ringfenced.
In Wales the Labour Party decided that the NHS shouldn't be ringfenced.
Explain why you are angry at the Tories and not the Labour Party please, do try to make your argument coherent.
Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument.
"It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries."
...how much money is fair for a nurse to be paid?
While you are at it please give me approx. fair salaries you would find acceptable for;
the Fire service, Police, Soldiers, Teachers. | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 06:51 - Apr 6 with 873 views | ladyjack |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 01:44 - Apr 6 by Kerouac |
"It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
...in England the NHS wasn't cut at all, it was ringfenced.
In Wales the Labour Party decided that the NHS shouldn't be ringfenced.
Explain why you are angry at the Tories and not the Labour Party please, do try to make your argument coherent.
Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument.
"It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries."
...how much money is fair for a nurse to be paid?
While you are at it please give me approx. fair salaries you would find acceptable for;
the Fire service, Police, Soldiers, Teachers. |
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/massive-underfunding-welsh-nhs-500m-13
Massive underfunding of Welsh NHS to the tune of half a billion pounds a year by Westminster. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 6:52]
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 07:43 - Apr 6 with 851 views | Gwyn737 |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 01:44 - Apr 6 by Kerouac |
"It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
...in England the NHS wasn't cut at all, it was ringfenced.
In Wales the Labour Party decided that the NHS shouldn't be ringfenced.
Explain why you are angry at the Tories and not the Labour Party please, do try to make your argument coherent.
Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument.
"It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries."
...how much money is fair for a nurse to be paid?
While you are at it please give me approx. fair salaries you would find acceptable for;
the Fire service, Police, Soldiers, Teachers. |
Right.
1) Ring-fencing over time is a real terms cut. In it’s most basic form, looking at inflation through the period of austerity has resulted in around an 8% reduction in funding. I didn’t say funding was ‘cut’.
2) I am angry about both, but I live in England so in this instance my knowledge base is stronger in regard to Conservative rule.
3) Other countries systems? I didn’t mention any of them and didn’t use them to support my argument so it’s a moot point.
4) Impossible to put a figure on each but it has to be an amount for each profession to staff roles adequately. We’re seeing a little bit of this in education where resignation dates have become a bit like the football transfer window, particularly in STEM subjects. However, like other public service roles pay is set centrally. I’d like the piece of work done to ensure salaries are meet the need of vacancies. I’m aware this won’t fix everything but it would be a great start. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 7:57]
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 08:21 - Apr 6 with 835 views | ItchySphincter |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 17:52 - Apr 5 by A_Fans_Dad |
But still paying in as was agreed.
Since 11pm, 29 March 2019,when we should have left, the UK has paid the EU £12,388,921,945.67. This could've paid for 137 new hospitals, 538,648 nurses, 470,149 policemen, or even the repair of 233,753,244 potholes. A single pile of what we've paid in £20 notes would be 43.49 miles tall.
I will leave you to work out how much we have paid since January. |
Only a madman could blame the EU for the austerity and the under funding of the NHS. Crazy fools. |  |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 08:37 - Apr 6 with 823 views | ladyjack |
Bumped for Kerouac. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 8:43]
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 09:22 - Apr 6 with 803 views | chad |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 08:21 - Apr 6 by ItchySphincter |
Only a madman could blame the EU for the austerity and the under funding of the NHS. Crazy fools. |
I think the simple point being made is, regardless of our legal status of having left the EU, we are still required to pay the EU in the interim period so cannot currently spend that money elsewhere.
Hardly mad, now Einstein was considered mad by some and of course those crazy round earthers.
Although of course that figure on the side of the bus incorrectly included our rebate, I have always considered it an underestimate of future contributions given EU budgetary plans.
In addition to that of course the likes of Mr Blair were happy to wholesale give up part of our rebate anyway and the EU clearly stated it planned to do away with all rebates which it saw as inappropriate in a family of nations, and veto or not, political pressure could force that, given with our ‘mother of all rebates’ as it was called, we were the prime beneficiary, so it was basically us against the rest who saw it as unfair. |  | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 10:05 - Apr 6 with 782 views | Highjack |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 08:21 - Apr 6 by ItchySphincter |
Only a madman could blame the EU for the austerity and the under funding of the NHS. Crazy fools. |
All member states were ordered to cut spending to below a certain percentage of gdp as a response to the financial crash. If the rules weren’t adhered to we would have faced punishment. Now obviously the Tories and Lib Dem’s (don’t forget what those bastards also did) gleefully took the opportunity to enforce this austerity. They could have cut other stuff. They are all to blame. |  |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 10:49 - Apr 6 with 755 views | Kerouac |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 07:43 - Apr 6 by Gwyn737 |
Right.
1) Ring-fencing over time is a real terms cut. In it’s most basic form, looking at inflation through the period of austerity has resulted in around an 8% reduction in funding. I didn’t say funding was ‘cut’.
2) I am angry about both, but I live in England so in this instance my knowledge base is stronger in regard to Conservative rule.
3) Other countries systems? I didn’t mention any of them and didn’t use them to support my argument so it’s a moot point.
4) Impossible to put a figure on each but it has to be an amount for each profession to staff roles adequately. We’re seeing a little bit of this in education where resignation dates have become a bit like the football transfer window, particularly in STEM subjects. However, like other public service roles pay is set centrally. I’d like the piece of work done to ensure salaries are meet the need of vacancies. I’m aware this won’t fix everything but it would be a great start. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 7:57]
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"1) Ring-fencing over time is a real terms cut. In it’s most basic form, looking at inflation through the period of austerity has resulted in around an 8% reduction in funding. I didn’t say funding was ‘cut’. "
Big picture.
We were spending 11% of our GDP more than we were raising. Our national debt was spiralling out of control (still rising of course, but at a much slower rate now).
...and you seem to be saying that we would have been better prepared for this crisis by continuing on that path.
Where are your examples of countries spiralling into debt in this way who improved their outcomes?
If you accept that a UK government had to do something about that situation instead of continuing to borrow and spend like nothing happened then what more could the government do for the NHS other than ring fence it?
Why did Welsh Labour choose not to ring fence it? Why on earth should anybody take their criticism of under funding of the Welsh NHS seriously therefore?
Reality check. The Labour government chose to bail out UK banks (the Scottish one being the worst example if memory serves), the World went into recession, and we are now a poorer country as a result.
At that election both major parties proposed a form of austerity (it was the ONLY option, don't delude yourselves and stop trying to delude others).
The Tories got the most votes by sounding tougher than Labour but the coalition government actually only made "Cuts" at the speed Alistair Darling had proposed...these "cuts" basically amounted to freezing spending in the main. Although there were cut backs they were not nearly as deep as is often made out.
The Welsh Assembly chose to make small cuts to every department across the board, there was no ringfencing of the NHS. The Welsh Assembly spends more money on art and culture than England, they could have made cuts there and protected Welsh NHS a bit better if they actually believed the rhetoric they spout.
"2) I am angry about both, but I live in England so in this instance my knowledge base is stronger in regard to Conservative rule."
...disingenuous and laughable.
"3) Other countries systems? I didn’t mention any of them and didn’t use them to support my argument so it’s a moot point."
Bullshit. Your entire argument is that we have been mis-ruled in this country and the austerity policy of the previous 10 years has left our NHS in no fit state to deal with this crisis.
The FACT that S. Korea spend less money in overall terms, less money as a percentage of their GDP, have not had austerity and spend less money on health per head of population...yet outperform us is entirely relevant.
"Impossible to put a figure on each but it has to be an amount for each profession to staff roles adequately. We’re seeing a little bit of this in education where resignation dates have become a bit like the football transfer window, particularly in STEM subjects. However, like other public service roles pay is set centrally. I’d like the piece of work done to ensure salaries are meet the need of vacancies. I’m aware this won’t fix everything but it would be a great start."
...this is the problem. It is so easy to gain popularity and votes by continually arguing everybody should be paid more, much more difficult to put a figure on it, because the moment you do I will do the maths and present to you what that would mean to us as a country....how much extra tax YOU would have to pay and start asking awkward questions like; "if it's fair that A are being paid this then why aren't B, C, D & E being paid this?"
and
"If everybody in A, B, C, D & E are being paid that is it fair that person Y who doesn't have much and is struggling, who is already earning far less than A,B,C,D & E, should have to pay more?"
A lot of people on the "left" need to f*cking grow up. | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 10:55 - Apr 6 with 750 views | Kerouac |
Barnett formula can't be renegotiated as your friends the SNP won't agree to it.
We receive £120 per head for every £100 per head in England.
How the Welsh Labour party wants to divvy that up is a matter for them.
If our NHS in Wales needs £500m more than current spending then the Welsh Assembly needs to re-allocate the money from other departments.
Simple really.
As a nationalist, what would you be saying if you were English when confronted with the news that everywhere else in the UK has more money per head spent on them than you?
It is important to think coherently. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 10:57]
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 10:56 - Apr 6 with 752 views | WarwickHunt |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 08:21 - Apr 6 by ItchySphincter |
Only a madman could blame the EU for the austerity and the under funding of the NHS. Crazy fools. |
Or a fûcking idiot... |  | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:05 - Apr 6 with 739 views | ladyjack |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 10:55 - Apr 6 by Kerouac |
Barnett formula can't be renegotiated as your friends the SNP won't agree to it.
We receive £120 per head for every £100 per head in England.
How the Welsh Labour party wants to divvy that up is a matter for them.
If our NHS in Wales needs £500m more than current spending then the Welsh Assembly needs to re-allocate the money from other departments.
Simple really.
As a nationalist, what would you be saying if you were English when confronted with the news that everywhere else in the UK has more money per head spent on them than you?
It is important to think coherently. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 10:57]
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A properly functioning sovereign state should provide more funds for parts of the state that need it most and less funds to the parts that need it least. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 11:10]
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:22 - Apr 6 with 714 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 01:44 - Apr 6 by Kerouac |
"It’s more that the vulnerable state the service has found itself in following a decade of austerity has left itself on the back foot.
...in England the NHS wasn't cut at all, it was ringfenced.
In Wales the Labour Party decided that the NHS shouldn't be ringfenced.
Explain why you are angry at the Tories and not the Labour Party please, do try to make your argument coherent.
Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument.
"It’s been the preceding human cost too. NHS workers lauded by the government as heroes have previously had their working conditions hammered by the same people. Junior doctor contracts and nursing bursaries for a start.
Of course, the government were ahead of the game in clapping for the NHS, when they cheered after ‘winning’ the vote to keep down nurses salaries."
...how much money is fair for a nurse to be paid?
While you are at it please give me approx. fair salaries you would find acceptable for;
the Fire service, Police, Soldiers, Teachers. |
"Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument. "
Yes
Germany
South Korea
Singapore
Hong Kong
And any other Asian country that had recently experienced SARS & MERS epidemics. | | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:36 - Apr 6 with 699 views | Kerouac |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:22 - Apr 6 by A_Fans_Dad |
"Also, are you suggesting that the British NHS was more poorly prepared to deal with this than other countries' health systems? Please give examples to support your argument. "
Yes
Germany
South Korea
Singapore
Hong Kong
And any other Asian country that had recently experienced SARS & MERS epidemics. |
But they are not better prepared because they spend more money on it, is the point. | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:38 - Apr 6 with 698 views | Catullus |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:05 - Apr 6 by ladyjack |
A properly functioning sovereign state should provide more funds for parts of the state that need it most and less funds to the parts that need it least. [Post edited 6 Apr 2020 11:10]
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A properly functioning devolved government should do that too.
Wales gets more per head for health and social care than everywhere in England, except for London. It's 8% more I think. The Welsh NHS is in a worse state than England and somehow this is Westminsters fault? It's a devolved area, we get more money but it's not the Senedd's fault, really? | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:53 - Apr 6 with 680 views | ladyjack |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 11:38 - Apr 6 by Catullus |
A properly functioning devolved government should do that too.
Wales gets more per head for health and social care than everywhere in England, except for London. It's 8% more I think. The Welsh NHS is in a worse state than England and somehow this is Westminsters fault? It's a devolved area, we get more money but it's not the Senedd's fault, really? |
It's crumbs off the table, the Welsh NHS is underfunded to the tune of half a billion pounds a year by Westminster.
The reason why Wales should have more is the age of the population (ironic that is in part due to English grey white flight immigration, meaning the English NHS don't have to deal with them and the Welsh NHS do) and the fact that large parts of Wales are rural so services cost more. | | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 12:03 - Apr 6 with 661 views | Kerouac |
"Over the two decades of devolution the relative levels of public spending per head in the four nations of the UK have remained consistent — Wales has consistently seen a higher level of per capita spending than England but lower levels than Scotland and Northern Ireland. But if one looks at individual policy areas, some interesting, and perhaps unexpected, variations can be seen in the pattern and relative levels of funding. In health, for example, until very recently spending per head in Wales had been converging to the lower level seen in England, despite the higher levels of need and overall public funding in Wales. A similar pattern can be observed in education where the consistently higher per capita spending in Wales relative to England seen in the early years of devolution is now far less clear cut. There are also some key differences in areas like culture and recreation, agriculture and economic development where spending in Wales has been significantly higher than in England." | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 12:09 - Apr 6 with 651 views | ladyjack |
Crumbs off the table, higher levels of need, just like I said. | | | |
| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 12:10 - Apr 6 with 646 views | Kerouac |
"It is important to emphasise that the figures on identifiable public spending in Wales are different from figures setting out the funding the Welsh Government receives through the block grant from the UK government. In 2017-18, for every £1 spent in England, the Welsh Government got £1.20 for equivalent devolved services through the block grant (Figure 3)5. The ONS dataset shows that in the same year, there was £1.15 identifiable expenditure in Wales per head for each £1 spent in England." | |
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| Where is the 350M a week that the NHS was promised if we left the EU ? on 12:12 - Apr 6 with 636 views | Kerouac |
"The Welsh Government is responsible for prioritising how it spends the money it receives through the Barnett formula and other sources. There is no obligation on it to match spending in England, even though that is the basis for the Barnett formula. For example, although Wales gets £1.20 per head for every £1 for equivalent services in England there is no requirement that the Welsh Government will spend £1.20 per £1 on each devolved policy area. Our analysis shows that there is significant divergence between Wales and England. Spending on some devolved areas in Wales, notably health and education, has consistently been below the overall level of funding per head for devolved services in Wales relative to equivalent spending in England. Other areas, including economic development and culture and recreation have been consistently and significantly above." | |
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