| The midfield hole 15:20 - Sep 21 with 7524 views | Beckenhamhoop |
This team is its own worst enemy. After slowing the play down to a snails pace allowing the opposition to retain shape, we resort to play passes into players, usually tight to the touch line, who’re tightly marked and got their backs to goal. Often there is no supporting QPR player within 20 yards. They have no where to go and are immediately under pressure. This often tends to be Saito or Dembele both of whom are not physically strong enough to cope with receiving the ball in this way. We either lose the ball or it goes out for a thrown in.
This seems to be an option as the midfielders just don’t show for the ball. Im going to single out Field and Varane on this as they are the deeper lying midfielders. Varane, who Im still far from convinced by, is often positioned behind an opposition player when the CB’s are in possession effectively taking himself out of the game. He often has a tendency to stand and watch rather than affect the game by at least searching out space in which to receive the ball and turn the play around. The ability to do this was apparently one of the reasons we identified Varane as a player to turn defence into attack. I’ve seen precious little of any of this. I’d like to see what % of his passes actually go forward compared to other DM’s in the league. His tendency to pass backwards slows our play down again.
I’m not sure you can excuse his lack of experience of the championship for this as to my mind searching out space to receive the ball is basic midfield play regardless of what league you play in. He’s good at breaking up play when out of possession, which is what his stats showed before we bought him.
Field is better out of possession than in it. He is a disrupter and nothing more. He’s technically quite poor and has no ability to advance the play through the thirds (as they say). As a result we effectively have this gaping hole in the middle of the team. When push comes to shove later in the game, we resort to the basic tactic of pushing Jimmy Dunne further up the pitch and knocking it long(er). This has paid off several times but I’d rather not have to rely on this to get us out of a hole of our own making.
It could be an option to play Madsen in a deeper role but he seems to lack the workrate and grit needed for that position. Colback has occasionally been a liability but I can’t see any player in the squad that plays this DM position better than he does.
It’s all very well having game winning players like Dembele or Chair in your team if you struggle to get the ball to them quickly with the opposition retreating at pace (see Freys goal today). |  | | |  |
| The midfield hole on 16:20 - Sep 21 with 6396 views | Damo1962 |
Field gives it his all... unfortunately his all is not very much. Definitely a weak link for me. The Danish lads need to up their performances as well. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 16:42 - Sep 21 with 6182 views | WadR |
Yeah I thought this was our biggest issue today.
I get the theory behind inviting the press to play through it, getting Paal to invert, allowing Madsen to push up into a City lite 3-2-4-1 sort of shape. But I feel the reality was a lot of passing it into Field's feet under pressure on the half turn and him getting caught and forcing Dunne to be the one to play the incisive line breaking pass. Which, on both counts, feels like a misuse of them and a mistake.
Also would've liked to see Madsen deeper and offer for passes from the back 4 more. It felt like there were huge gaps between Field/Paal and the forward players.
Early days with the new midfielders. But it feels like Varane is in the midfield destroyer mould, Madsen plays further forward so we're still reliant on a 35 year old, ill-disciplined Jack Colback to play a midfield orchestrator role that seems vital to this formation. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 16:52 - Sep 21 with 6064 views | Spaceman_P |
Nasa will find this blackhole quicker than we do. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 17:01 - Sep 21 with 6019 views | StreathamRanger |
I think it's a shame we tried and failed to get Hayden. We'd be stronger with him. New signings a touch too soft right now for the cut and thrust of championship football. I keep saying it but we'll also be a hell of a lot more threatening once we have Chair back. He's still our best player. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 17:06 - Sep 21 with 5955 views | BklynRanger |
| The midfield hole on 16:20 - Sep 21 by Damo1962 |
Field gives it his all... unfortunately his all is not very much. Definitely a weak link for me. The Danish lads need to up their performances as well. |
Damo I love you as an Ulsterman, but that is balls.
Field does what he does very well, solidly, nearly every game. But he's not a 'get it on the turn and progress it' sort of player, he's 'Field the Shield'.
We need a number of other players to take that on. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 17:22 - Sep 21 with 5844 views | mart_Goblin |
The midfield is our biggest issue and has been for a while .
Saw Madsen and to a lesser extent Andersen hiding today. Was in the lower school behind the goal and it gives you a great angle on the team shape . When for example , JCS comes forward with the ball, Madsen stayed stationary behind players fronting up to the ball . No trying to create space , no coming to get the ball deep , no movement at all . We need the more advanced midfielders to start wanting the ball . Chair comes too deep at times but comes looking for the ball . Without him , we have nothing . Madsen and Andersen not only don’t try and make space they were often today too advanced so when we inevitably lose possession they are out of the game . And as for ‘possession’, this is now a real issue. Not only do we find it impossible to have any sort of ball retention , when any of our midfielders have the ball they can’t protect it or shield it at all. If they have the ball moving forward which is rare, it gets nicked off of them as they can’t protect it .
Out of them all Varane looks like he will best suited to doing this but not yet and Field through all his good work for the team just isn’t good enough to play a pass or retain possession. His ‘go to’ is just to help the ball on with aimless lobs into the opponents half.
Love Marti , but he has to take some responsibility. Not sure where Madsen was supposed to be playing cos first half he just wanted to hold Saito’s hand . Get out of his space and stop hiding !!!!
Frustrating today . 2 average teams and we couldn’t keep the ball against them . |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 18:09 - Sep 21 with 5602 views | baz_qpr |
| The midfield hole on 17:22 - Sep 21 by mart_Goblin |
The midfield is our biggest issue and has been for a while .
Saw Madsen and to a lesser extent Andersen hiding today. Was in the lower school behind the goal and it gives you a great angle on the team shape . When for example , JCS comes forward with the ball, Madsen stayed stationary behind players fronting up to the ball . No trying to create space , no coming to get the ball deep , no movement at all . We need the more advanced midfielders to start wanting the ball . Chair comes too deep at times but comes looking for the ball . Without him , we have nothing . Madsen and Andersen not only don’t try and make space they were often today too advanced so when we inevitably lose possession they are out of the game . And as for ‘possession’, this is now a real issue. Not only do we find it impossible to have any sort of ball retention , when any of our midfielders have the ball they can’t protect it or shield it at all. If they have the ball moving forward which is rare, it gets nicked off of them as they can’t protect it .
Out of them all Varane looks like he will best suited to doing this but not yet and Field through all his good work for the team just isn’t good enough to play a pass or retain possession. His ‘go to’ is just to help the ball on with aimless lobs into the opponents half.
Love Marti , but he has to take some responsibility. Not sure where Madsen was supposed to be playing cos first half he just wanted to hold Saito’s hand . Get out of his space and stop hiding !!!!
Frustrating today . 2 average teams and we couldn’t keep the ball against them . |
It looked like the plan was for Anderson to push to the right and try to overload with Dembele and Madsen to do the opposite on the left with Saito and Paal stepping into midfield, however because we always went short and never over the top to stretch them and because these four all want to cut inside Millwall just crowded us out then hit a direct ball at turnover and we were constantly getting outnumbered.
Its worth pointing out the subs and the switch to be more orthodox 4--2-3-1 with Smyth and Lloyd wide and Varane on actually made us less effective.
What we are not very good at at them moment is making the unselfish run to create space for someone else. far far too often we had 5 or 6 with back to goal |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 18:21 - Sep 21 with 5546 views | mart_Goblin |
| The midfield hole on 18:09 - Sep 21 by baz_qpr |
It looked like the plan was for Anderson to push to the right and try to overload with Dembele and Madsen to do the opposite on the left with Saito and Paal stepping into midfield, however because we always went short and never over the top to stretch them and because these four all want to cut inside Millwall just crowded us out then hit a direct ball at turnover and we were constantly getting outnumbered.
Its worth pointing out the subs and the switch to be more orthodox 4--2-3-1 with Smyth and Lloyd wide and Varane on actually made us less effective.
What we are not very good at at them moment is making the unselfish run to create space for someone else. far far too often we had 5 or 6 with back to goal |
Agreed, especially the last paragraph . Spot on | | | |
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| The midfield hole on 18:35 - Sep 21 with 5405 views | Beckenhamhoop |
| The midfield hole on 18:21 - Sep 21 by mart_Goblin |
Agreed, especially the last paragraph . Spot on |
Agreed. These players don’t seem to want to help each other out much. As has been mentioned I’d like to see Madsen coming a bit deeper, even though he’s playing 10 and and contribute in allowing us to take the ball and break lines. I think Madsen is technically quite a good player he just needs a small rocket up his posterior. Dembele can also do this when he’s playing more centrally which I don’t get why Marti is stubbornly keeping him on the right.
It’s obvious to me that the team don’t practice set plays in how to turn the opposition around when were playing out from the back. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 18:46 - Sep 21 with 5276 views | joe90 |
| The midfield hole on 18:35 - Sep 21 by Beckenhamhoop |
Agreed. These players don’t seem to want to help each other out much. As has been mentioned I’d like to see Madsen coming a bit deeper, even though he’s playing 10 and and contribute in allowing us to take the ball and break lines. I think Madsen is technically quite a good player he just needs a small rocket up his posterior. Dembele can also do this when he’s playing more centrally which I don’t get why Marti is stubbornly keeping him on the right.
It’s obvious to me that the team don’t practice set plays in how to turn the opposition around when were playing out from the back. |
What you’ve identified is the eternal problem with most of our players of the last few seasons. Technical ability devoid of application. Most analysis leans towards the ‘if they just did a bit more of this’ or ‘they played here instead of there’…etc. Better to have a player who knows where he needs to be and lacks a bit of technical ability than someone who has the ability but does nothing with it.
The crucial difference with Madsen and players like him is they go missing in games far too often. Saito and Dembele can and will likely improve and be greater assets to the team. I just don’t see it with Madsen. We don’t need him, he need a Colback style player. That’s the bottom line. Unless of course we just want to watch a ‘languid’ player all season? [Post edited 21 Sep 18:50]
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| The midfield hole on 19:04 - Sep 21 with 5107 views | NorthantsHoop |
Madsen seemed totally out of position to me, hugging left when we needed something in the middle where Field struggled to get hold of anything. Thought Paal in midfield in first half was a mistake and affected Madsen as he pushed left too much. Still need someone who can pick the ball off Cook and JCS as we were playing far too much you to me, me to you stuff and so slow allowing Millwall to set up nicely, who I thought by the way played some decent football and would have gone away disappointed that they did not win this one, but we are proving hard to beat, which is a plus. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 19:51 - Sep 21 with 4937 views | baz_qpr |
Actually I disagree, re Madsen, we've been crying out for an 8 for some time, Marti has him in a hybrid role and its going to take time to get up to the physicality of the league. If you check his sofa score or equivalent ratings he has been one of the highest rated in the games he's played so far because for all the current flaws he does play some key passes the cross for Smyth against Palace being a really good example | | | |
| The midfield hole on 20:29 - Sep 21 with 4745 views | stevec |
I’m not convinced we’ll ever get the three behind Frey right. There’s something about it that asks too much of Championship players, particularly behind the three.
I’d like to see us play to the strength of our best players. Dembele should have a free roll behind Frey not stuck out wide and wasted.
We looked best last season with a two from three in Field/Colback/Hayden so Field and Colback still makes sense in front of the existing back four.
Chair still to come in, where you fit the bundle of other midfielders I’m at a slight loss but there’s plenty of them and whether that’s in a loose 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 I’m at a loss to know. We need to simplify it down to round pegs in round holes, and I’d say we can do that in 8 out of the 10 outfield positions. Let the others fight over the spare spots and concentrate on getting a team out playing in their best conventional positions.
In short, I’m technically and tactically worn out, just give us something I can understand. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 00:11 - Sep 22 with 4386 views | stainrods_elbow |
| The midfield hole on 16:42 - Sep 21 by WadR |
Yeah I thought this was our biggest issue today.
I get the theory behind inviting the press to play through it, getting Paal to invert, allowing Madsen to push up into a City lite 3-2-4-1 sort of shape. But I feel the reality was a lot of passing it into Field's feet under pressure on the half turn and him getting caught and forcing Dunne to be the one to play the incisive line breaking pass. Which, on both counts, feels like a misuse of them and a mistake.
Also would've liked to see Madsen deeper and offer for passes from the back 4 more. It felt like there were huge gaps between Field/Paal and the forward players.
Early days with the new midfielders. But it feels like Varane is in the midfield destroyer mould, Madsen plays further forward so we're still reliant on a 35 year old, ill-disciplined Jack Colback to play a midfield orchestrator role that seems vital to this formation. |
Techincally, JC is still 34 for another month, but he still needs to grow up! |  |
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| The midfield hole on 00:57 - Sep 22 with 4327 views | ozexile |
| The midfield hole on 19:51 - Sep 21 by baz_qpr |
Actually I disagree, re Madsen, we've been crying out for an 8 for some time, Marti has him in a hybrid role and its going to take time to get up to the physicality of the league. If you check his sofa score or equivalent ratings he has been one of the highest rated in the games he's played so far because for all the current flaws he does play some key passes the cross for Smyth against Palace being a really good example |
Just checking that we have the same definition of an 8? My definition is a cm busting forward past the strikers etc. Making runs, creating space. That's never gonna be Madsen. Not saying he doesn't have a role possibly off the bench as a 10. But he shouldn't start IMO,. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 05:48 - Sep 22 with 4142 views | DylanP |
Honestly, I have no idea what Madsen's role is. Someone said he is a number 10. He certainly doesn't play like a number 10. Also, Anderson has taken a major step back since last year. The two of them should be the ones receiving the ball in midfield and creating something that the wide players or strikers (Dembele, Saito, Smyth, Celar, and Frey) can play off. There is noone playing that role which is why whenever we have the ball it always seems to be going backwards or side to side
For today's goal, Debele picked up the ball deep in our half, ran with it and slotted the ball into Frey -- effectively he way a midfielder and attacker at the same time. That is not sustainable.
Maybe when Chair comes back he will complement Anderson in a way that makes them both better and serve that critical role. |  |
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| The midfield hole on 07:54 - Sep 22 with 3811 views | HAYESBOY |
If you notice he is trying to play Paal as an extra midfielder when we try and play out. It is always JCS who receives the ball out left as Paal has moved in field. Madsen pushes up a little and Field anchors.
Its a one trick pony really but we are persisting with it.
Agree though we end up playing it long down the flank of being shutdown.
Also often we will place a pass into midfield and that player has someone up his arse. If he takes a touch or tries to turn he sometimes gets robbed. No need for that pass into a cul-de-sac.
Not sure what the answer is as just don't want us to punt it up field all the time either. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| The midfield hole on 08:53 - Sep 22 with 3581 views | Gus_iom |
| The midfield hole on 07:54 - Sep 22 by HAYESBOY |
If you notice he is trying to play Paal as an extra midfielder when we try and play out. It is always JCS who receives the ball out left as Paal has moved in field. Madsen pushes up a little and Field anchors.
Its a one trick pony really but we are persisting with it.
Agree though we end up playing it long down the flank of being shutdown.
Also often we will place a pass into midfield and that player has someone up his arse. If he takes a touch or tries to turn he sometimes gets robbed. No need for that pass into a cul-de-sac.
Not sure what the answer is as just don't want us to punt it up field all the time either. |
I don't know if rotating players around the pitch is supposed to make us unpredictable, but we were anything but. Possibly because it doesn't come organically to a lot of this team.
Presumably, Marti outlined the type of player he wanted in the summer, the analysts analysed, and chose the current lot. Some of them don't look up to it - yet. A big change for a lot of the new lads, it's going to take them a bit of time to adjust. We know Marti has it in him to be pragmatic, he's going to have to find a 'middle way', it'll be fascinating to look back at this start, at the end of the season.
There's problems to solve all over the place. I really like Dunne, but I can see why they want a more 'footballing' right back. But, he adds much needed height, and yesterday showed how much we need it. Good luck squaring that circle! | | | |
| The midfield hole on 09:53 - Sep 22 with 3391 views | dmm |
There are some interesting analyses in this thread which make sense. On a very simple level, I can't help but think that simply moving the ball through the thirds more quickly would be a major solution to our issues.
There will of course be reasons why that's not happening, and Marti is aware of this issue having described our play as 'slow' several times now. But it is surely achievable with the players we have. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 11:06 - Sep 22 with 3221 views | baz_qpr |
| The midfield hole on 00:57 - Sep 22 by ozexile |
Just checking that we have the same definition of an 8? My definition is a cm busting forward past the strikers etc. Making runs, creating space. That's never gonna be Madsen. Not saying he doesn't have a role possibly off the bench as a 10. But he shouldn't start IMO,. |
No an 8 can be different things you've described the Box to box midfielder role which is one form of the 8 e.g Luke Amos, another form is the Playmaker they can sit deep, or be further forward or roam around but they are always looking for the killer pass to create etc. That is what Madsen is. Whether he is doing it well is another thing, but the stats suggest he is doing better than the eye test
4-2-3-1 you typically have a shield or anchor 6 and an 8 that dictates play think of Derry / Faurlin as a perfectly balanced midfield 2. Faurlin was never box to box. Bannon at Wednesday another playmaker not B2B, Wilkins back in the day etc. | | | |
| The midfield hole on 11:12 - Sep 22 with 3201 views | daveB |
whatever formation you play, inverted full backs whatever you have to show bravery on the ball and risk losing it to make something happen. Far too often we went safety first with the ball all the time and it got us nowhere. When we did get in their half and moved it quickly we looked a threat but that was very rare.
Performance wise that was pretty much the same as last weekend |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 12:08 - Sep 22 with 3100 views | davman |
Cutting through much of the tactical jargon on this thread, the one point from the OP that resonated with me is that no-one comes looking, demanding the ball. Yes, Paal has started to get in those positions, but he just stands there. If he does get passed to (rarely), his instinct is to keep possession by playing a safe ball back to the CBs. Field in the same,butter least he looks for it.
Varane is showing some signs of wanting the ball, but is no better as he looks back first. Colback is the only one that shows signs of wanting to progress.
...and in front of them, I see the same. No-one demands the ball as though they have been banned from doing something other than the "sacred game plan". Too formulaic, too predictable.
We need to do something different and better. |  |
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| The midfield hole on 12:23 - Sep 22 with 3042 views | DavieQPR |
Would prefer to see us start with a 4-3-3. The player in the 10 role is not contributing at the moment. Give Chair and Dembele freer roles up front. |  | | |
| The midfield hole on 12:38 - Sep 22 with 2997 views | 1JD |
Seems the CM saga rumbles on for yet another season.
Genuinely amazed at the profile of CM the club bought in this summer given “Marti ball” - a system that demands your deeper CMs show for the ball, open their bodies up, can take it under pressure, get on the half turn, and play out / play through the middle.
Field can’t do it. Colback can’t do it. Madsen is anonymous. Only Varane has shown promise in this regard but doesn’t start. But none of them are any kind of deep midfield anchor/conductor/playmaker.
So we continue to be restricted to working everything out to the wing and have become quite predictable at present. (nothing goesthrough the middle - the CMs just stand there either idle or in hiding). [Post edited 22 Sep 12:40]
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| The midfield hole on 12:49 - Sep 22 with 2918 views | Northernr |
| The midfield hole on 11:12 - Sep 22 by daveB |
whatever formation you play, inverted full backs whatever you have to show bravery on the ball and risk losing it to make something happen. Far too often we went safety first with the ball all the time and it got us nowhere. When we did get in their half and moved it quickly we looked a threat but that was very rare.
Performance wise that was pretty much the same as last weekend |
Bravery was the word I came here to use as well.
You've got to be brave enough to play a more difficult, risky forward ball rather than a safer backwards and sideways option - none of ours were, really, overall.
You've got to be brave enough to show for those forward passes, offer an option, and perhaps receive a ball under pressure, while marked - none of ours did, really, overall.
And you've then got to be brave enough to turn on that ball and play it forwards yourself, rather than just bang it straight back first time from whence it came. Again...
The one time we did all three of these things we scored.
Another problem is pace, tempo, intensity. If you play like this slowly, it just allows the opposition to file back into shape and watch you do it in front of them. We've got to move the ball far, far quicker. And, again, the one time we did that, we scored.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
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