| Brexit .... My thoughts... 11:07 - Jun 16 with 149540 views | JacksDad |
The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose. |  | | |  |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 08:23 - Jul 2 with 2158 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 02:09 - Jul 2 by BasingstokeR |
"And while we're at it, why were these benign benefactors of ours negotiating TTIP in such secret"
Hardly any trade deals or similar international negotiations, or peace processes etc. are conducted otherwise are they? TTIP and TPP as examples and more or less every single US deal is done at utmost secrecy down to US govt policy. Do you know of any that have been publicised openly or broadcast? |
Haha, no I do not, but any deal being negotiated that even refused to allow MEP's any access to details should at least be ringing some alarm bells. It was only concerted public pressure that provided a little transparency on what was being planned. I can see why they wanted it kept quiet! I'm a little lost as to why people are so angry that we have voted to remove ourselves from an organisation planning to spring such democracy crushing legislation on its members.
Now in the spirit of good debate, perhaps you could answer some of my questions.
In peace |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 08:26 - Jul 2 with 2156 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 04:33 - Jul 2 by timcocking |
Right or wrong, now that's a bloody good post. |
Thank you Tim, if memory serves you're a Remainer making your words even more generous. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:50 - Jul 2 with 2117 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:16 - Jul 2 by 1BobbyHazell |
It isn't an anti-EU site, it is a corporate lobbyist watchdog site. Doing the sort of research and providing the 'hidden behind the scenes' information that our journalists and politicians should be doing. If you have link to a more thorough one I would genuinely like to have a look.
What it illustrates, in excellent detail, is the nature of the EU forcing a country to introduce laws that reduce worker's rights. It shows the utterly undemocratic and bullying nature of its law making capabilities. And I might remind you that Hollande pushed this EU demanded law through by invoking a special clause that allowed him to do so by BYPASSING PARLIAMENT. How is this not ringing alarm bells about the EU's interference with and overriding of the genuine democratic process? Seems a strange thing to become an apologist for.
I've no idea what you mean by 'the left are coming round to it', violent civil unrest is not a sign of that!
It also shows that the idea that the EU is going to save us from or provide us with a barrier to the rampant neoliberalism of our current government is an absolute myth. One that seems to be a cornerstone for many left leaning Remainers views.
You talk of Remainers demanding evidence, where is your evidence for me that the EU won't be pushing through more neoliberal enforced laws that increase the grip of Big Finance and Business on our lives? And while we're at it, why were these benign benefactors of ours negotiating TTIP in such secret?
Is everything completely black and white in your book, Remain - good, Leave - bad? Don't you think we should all do what we can to really investigate the EU, how it works and who's really pulling the strings?
As always, I would ask you or any other remainer to explain to me how voting for a status quo of Dave, George et al was going to improve on the years of austerity that have seen our public services slashed, the selling off of public assets, the demise and increasing privatisation of the NHS, drastic reduction in benefits, food bank use rising exponentially etc etc etc. What was so good about all that? What did the next four years of unchallenged Dave mean for the country? Where is the evidence that we weren't going to continue being increasingly worse off if we stayed in?
As I said, nothing, other than something verging on mass hysteria based on speculation has happened. As a client of mine who is a City Boy (well, man) Remainer said this week 'we're looking at a ten year time frame to know the medium term results of all this'.
Long term economic stability is mathematically impossible anyway, unless we take away the power for private banks to create 'money' out of thin air via debt and take control of the issuing of money. The Icelanders, you know the ones who received even worse economic warnings than us if they went it alone but found the truth to be quite the opposite, have been considering doing that.
Nothing wrong with being positive and seeing if the current political upheavals can produce something of even slightly greater value than the unsatisfactory incumbent. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 0:22]
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I don't know much about the situation in France but my understanding from reading an article on the BBC some time ago was that Hollande made promises about unemployment when seeking election and is struggling to get it down if at all. So I'm not sure entirely sure it's forced on him or whether he's just letting people believe it is to get his unemployment figures down whilst letting someone else take the blame for removing the workers rights. I understand that the EU have been trying to unify economic rules to get uniformity and reduce the disparity between neighbouring countries which seems like a good idea to reduce migration and to prevent individual countries struggling. But again I would confess to not knowing a great deal about the situation in France so go easy on me.
My main point and reason for posting was with regards to your comments about Cameron and austerity. Now if the majority of people voting leave are to be believed democracy is a key issue for leaving the EU. David and his promises of reducing the deficit through austerity were supported by a majority of the population whether we agree with it or not. So whether we would be better off or not the status quo was democratically elected, or as close as we can get without proportional representation.
Now the situation appears to be that David has gone so we'll have a PM who wasn't elected (Also I believe Blair was clear that he wouldn't be PM by the end of his third term when campaigning which makes it different to this situation). Now Osborne is claiming that the decision to leave means that they don't have to meet their target for eliminating the deficit by 2020 which was something else that was voted for. We'll probably still have austerity but if they miss their target it's vote leaves fault not theirs. If the leavers are to be believed the EU was controlling nearly everything we do remember so we'll have a lot of new policies for some unknown PM to decide on. But somehow there's no appetite for a general election to provide a new mandate to the government to reflect the recent changes. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:52 - Jul 2 with 2112 views | 1BobbyHazell |
Thanks for getting back to me with such a detailed and thoughtful post E17hoop. It's good to get more than just the empty rhetoric so prevalent on both sides.
Farming - As you say it is very interesting that farmers were so keen on Leave given their subsidies. One possible reason is that we currently pay £6 billion into CAP but only get given £3 billion back, so maybe some farmers view it as us essentially subsidising their competitors. Just a thought. As you rightly point out things are completely up in the air on such matters at the moment, change of this magnitude (if it were to happen; still unlikely I agree) takes time to plan and organise properly. But I would say we have to believe in our ability to do so and it is clearly not a case of us having less money to do it with. There is a strong case for looking at how farmer subsidies are taken advantage of by the large supermarkets in their squeeze on providers and many other relevant issues I'm sure.
For me your point about seasonal picking workforce is an exceptionally minor one, if workers are needed because we really can't find homegrown pickers I don't think it will be the hardest bureaucratic process to arrange. Similarly to people saying that the NHS would fall apart because countless nurses and doctors would have to suddenly leave the country, I don't see a problem in that regard, if workers are needed they will be there.
I think you may misunderstand my reason for highlighting the French case. It is to show a detailed and well researched example of the consciousness of the power behind the direction the EU is moving in. The fairly untouchable levels of corporate lobbying power and the rules in place (ones that seem to be ever increasing) for the EU to dictate laws to a sovereign nation are the core building blocks of my Out-ness. I've been reading about/following the EU for twenty odd years now ( I know 'listen to me' blah blah blah) and what seems clear to me is the direction of the centralisation of power dominated by the global corporate and financial institutions' lobbyists. So although you very optimistically hope to put the French affair down as a geographical/political anomaly, for me it is a marker for the standard attitude of the gradual overtaking of sovereign nation control by the EU. The watchdog organisation that I've previously linked to has done excellent work on the revolving door between senior European decision makers and corporate lobbyist jobs. http://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/revolving-doors
In terms of your work and the horrific cuts you have faced you have nothing but my greatest sympathy and admiration. I used to work in that sector and have many friends and contacts who still do and I know the absolute devastation that is being wrought upon us by our 'leaders'. The return to making sure that our social provisions are prioritised over paying off falsely manufactured 'debts' is the drive behind much of my political activity.
It is a difficult area for me to discuss in this (relatively) short written form because my deepest understanding about the false nature of the economic system due to the creation of money as debt by private institutions means that I know that 'austerity' and 'recessions' are really just the terms used to hide the wealth grabs of the richest people and organisations in the world. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/26/recession-rich-britains-wealthi The whole world is in this so called 'debt' and when the tiny group of people and organisations who control the numbers on the computer screens decide they can pretty much enforce crashes, dips, recoveries etc etc at will. Only when we remove ourselves from that illusion and take sovereign control of the issuing of money will we be able to put a stop to that and make sure that society is based around the needs of the many as opposed to the few. Until then, we can be told that 'austerity' is necessary and that the great god Economy demands our sacrifice while the billionaires enjoy the benefits of it.
But all that aside! Back in what most of you ( or the great uninitiated as I like to call you!) would call the real world I still see the opportunity to create some change. Sure the EU grants may stop and your concern about that is more than understandable but there will be more money available to us to use ourselves and this is where my pleas for positivity and participation come in. I see the current political 'turmoil' (strong word that, there are plenty of places around the world that could show us what real turmoil looks like) as an opportunity for some increased participation in democracy, a chance to enact a real increase in genuine political transparency, if the canvas is temporarily a little blank let's give this opportunity to let the status quo know that we need more from them rather than sit back and just wait for them to provide the next acceptable puppet that quietly reassures us while Business As Usual carries on dismantling our society and social provision.
Don't sit back feeling helpless and negative, get on to your MP TODAY and ask what they will be planning to do with the money we would no longer have to provide to the EU. Throw your ideas at them about how we could improve society post Brexit, there HAVE to be some positives possible from the breaking up of Dave and George's four unchallenged years ahead plan! Ask them what they'll be planning to do if we do end up staying to rectify what you see as local or national issues. Sign every petition you can that calls for something you believe in, my current favourite is the one for an Independent Political Transparency and Accountability. Then follow it up and see what's happening. Go on a march. Organise a march.
Sooner rather than later there will be another election. The main parties will be terrified so use that opportunity where they will actually have to listen more to get more out of them. And if we do end up staying in get as educated about the corporate issues I have raised and of course particularly TTIP and make sure your representative is against such a thing being accepted.
Everyone must have better ideas than me, so just do something, there is no excuse for anyone over the age of 30/35 to genuinely think that the politicians can just be quietly left to get on with it and take care of us, in or out.
If we are leaving, help to shape how it could look. Try. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:52 - Jul 2 with 2111 views | BasingstokeR |
"I'm a little lost as to why people are so angry that we have voted to remove ourselves from an organisation planning to spring such democracy crushing legislation on its members."
I may be wrong but I don't think people are angry about what's happened when diluted down to just this angle ^^^
On this angle alone; I think a number of people believe we are still (EU aside) governed by an organisation planning to spring such democracy crushing legislation on our country on its own; with (potentially) a fixed term parliament to the end of the decade and an electoral system which means a single party can be landslide majority elected on 5million votes less than either side got in last Thursday's poll. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:55 - Jul 2 with 2111 views | PunteR |
This thread is giving the Frankie one a run for its money..
A paranoid come down version..
40 years on , Punk had it right.. Anarchy in the UK... |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:00 - Jul 2 with 2105 views | DannytheR |
"I have faith."
"The believers."
"The great uninitiated."
One week in and it's already sounding like a religious cult. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:44 - Jul 2 with 2046 views | E17hoop |
Thanks for your reply. I work in a politically sensitive role so am bound by certain conventions in respect of political activity.
What interests me is how the approach you are suggesting seems to be the agenda behind Corbyn and the Labour leadership's attitude to the issue. The direction he is taking is mirrored in your comments but I find it difficult to see how it will work.
I've seen it through my work as ideological decisions are made and then handed over to officers to make it happen. And they can't. There are pockets of it across London and other urban areas, but in the wider population there isn't an appetite for a change of this magnitude. As we've seen, the financial markets find uncertainty damaging and, like it or not, the UK relies on financial market stability to help it run. We've seen, for example, that 4 local councils - Cornwall Council, Guildford and Warrington Borough Councils, and Lancashire County Council - have had their credit ratings downgraded since last week. These 4 councils will now have to find other funding streams to balance the additional costs which they will incur through borrowing to deliver their local services.
The pockets that I've seen have been the secondary and tertiary services that local communities are happy to take governance and oversight of. What they are less willing to do is support primary services, especially in the areas of social care. I can't see how this will improve from leaving the EU. Like agriculture, finding workers willing to fill roles in social care is difficult and closing the market down to EU candidates will have a massive impact on recruitment. There is a gap in the recruitment of social workers, especially in the adult care sector at present and the idea that by removing EU migrants from these jobs and back -filling them with workers from the UK will take up to a generation. I don't see a government in the near future making a commitment to spend that money to fund those roles.
As an aside, calling people uninitiated won't help convince people that the belief you have is going to work; if anything it's pejorative language which alienates and divides and makes people less likely to engage (cf DannytheR's post at 10.00). |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:48 - Jul 2 with 2033 views | stevec |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:00 - Jul 2 by DannytheR |
"I have faith."
"The believers."
"The great uninitiated."
One week in and it's already sounding like a religious cult. |
Danny, more good news for you, the FTSE has had its biggest weekly rise for 8 years and it's all happened whilst the politicians had their eye off the ball. Who'd have thought?
Join us, rejoice and shout 'I Believe!' We can heal you. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:03 - Jul 2 with 2018 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:48 - Jul 2 by stevec |
Danny, more good news for you, the FTSE has had its biggest weekly rise for 8 years and it's all happened whilst the politicians had their eye off the ball. Who'd have thought?
Join us, rejoice and shout 'I Believe!' We can heal you. |
The FTSE? I'm guessing you mean the FTSE100, in which case you should maybe have a look at this, which explains it pretty fluently I think.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/27/why-we-should-be-looking-at-the-f
The 100 is doing well because the pound has sunk like a stone.
The 250 was still 8% down from before the vote down the last time I checked.
I'll have to leave you to it for bit. We're off to go and see my sister-in-law. Works with a scientific research body who used to get much of their funding from the EU. Told yesterday they can't guarantee her job beyond Christmas.
Congratulations. You get your revenge on the rest of us at last, Steve. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 11:06]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:14 - Jul 2 with 2000 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:44 - Jul 2 by E17hoop |
Thanks for your reply. I work in a politically sensitive role so am bound by certain conventions in respect of political activity.
What interests me is how the approach you are suggesting seems to be the agenda behind Corbyn and the Labour leadership's attitude to the issue. The direction he is taking is mirrored in your comments but I find it difficult to see how it will work.
I've seen it through my work as ideological decisions are made and then handed over to officers to make it happen. And they can't. There are pockets of it across London and other urban areas, but in the wider population there isn't an appetite for a change of this magnitude. As we've seen, the financial markets find uncertainty damaging and, like it or not, the UK relies on financial market stability to help it run. We've seen, for example, that 4 local councils - Cornwall Council, Guildford and Warrington Borough Councils, and Lancashire County Council - have had their credit ratings downgraded since last week. These 4 councils will now have to find other funding streams to balance the additional costs which they will incur through borrowing to deliver their local services.
The pockets that I've seen have been the secondary and tertiary services that local communities are happy to take governance and oversight of. What they are less willing to do is support primary services, especially in the areas of social care. I can't see how this will improve from leaving the EU. Like agriculture, finding workers willing to fill roles in social care is difficult and closing the market down to EU candidates will have a massive impact on recruitment. There is a gap in the recruitment of social workers, especially in the adult care sector at present and the idea that by removing EU migrants from these jobs and back -filling them with workers from the UK will take up to a generation. I don't see a government in the near future making a commitment to spend that money to fund those roles.
As an aside, calling people uninitiated won't help convince people that the belief you have is going to work; if anything it's pejorative language which alienates and divides and makes people less likely to engage (cf DannytheR's post at 10.00). |
As with most posts on this thread, very interesting and another example of how the real debate has begun after the actual vote.
I think that the most telling words are 'isn't an appetite for change of this magnitude'. If it's complicated at a local level then the mind boggles at the complexity of exiting the EU at a national level - hence the need for specialist lawyers etc (at a massive cost).
More and more, it's becoming apparent that (a) we are never going to be £350m a week better off - that was always a huge lie and very misleading, and (b) with the access to the single market we are looking at we're not going to be able to bring in a 'points system' as Boris promised.
Whoever takes the PM job, good luck to them because they are going to need it. They are either going to have to go the Brexit route and explain to the country that it's going to hurt and a lot of the promises of the Leave campaign will never come to fruition, or they are going to backtrack on it and face the wrath of Leave voters. The third possibility is that the EU starts to come apart, in which case we'll have a sort of forced Brexit it any event.
For the past 2-3 days I have become more and more convinced that Brexit will never actually happen. That's my vision (but I'm not going to start a cult). |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:17 - Jul 2 with 2542 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:03 - Jul 2 by DannytheR |
The FTSE? I'm guessing you mean the FTSE100, in which case you should maybe have a look at this, which explains it pretty fluently I think.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/27/why-we-should-be-looking-at-the-f
The 100 is doing well because the pound has sunk like a stone.
The 250 was still 8% down from before the vote down the last time I checked.
I'll have to leave you to it for bit. We're off to go and see my sister-in-law. Works with a scientific research body who used to get much of their funding from the EU. Told yesterday they can't guarantee her job beyond Christmas.
Congratulations. You get your revenge on the rest of us at last, Steve. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 11:06]
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" Works with a scientific research body who used to get much of their funding from the EU. Told yesterday they can't guarantee her job beyond Christmas. "
It might be a naïve question and I am happy to be put right but where does the EU get its money from to fund such research. Also as we will still be in the EU for two years after article 50 why will funding dry up at Christmas. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:44 - Jul 2 with 2505 views | E17hoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:14 - Jul 2 by Mytch_QPR |
As with most posts on this thread, very interesting and another example of how the real debate has begun after the actual vote.
I think that the most telling words are 'isn't an appetite for change of this magnitude'. If it's complicated at a local level then the mind boggles at the complexity of exiting the EU at a national level - hence the need for specialist lawyers etc (at a massive cost).
More and more, it's becoming apparent that (a) we are never going to be £350m a week better off - that was always a huge lie and very misleading, and (b) with the access to the single market we are looking at we're not going to be able to bring in a 'points system' as Boris promised.
Whoever takes the PM job, good luck to them because they are going to need it. They are either going to have to go the Brexit route and explain to the country that it's going to hurt and a lot of the promises of the Leave campaign will never come to fruition, or they are going to backtrack on it and face the wrath of Leave voters. The third possibility is that the EU starts to come apart, in which case we'll have a sort of forced Brexit it any event.
For the past 2-3 days I have become more and more convinced that Brexit will never actually happen. That's my vision (but I'm not going to start a cult). |
Work I've seen suggests that in many areas, a maximum of 2% of the local population are willing to regularly support their community across more than one core area, i.e. a non-single issue cause. In an average ward size of 7000, that would mean as few as 140 people supporting core services. Localism at that level can't work as the support required isn't scalable to meet the fluctuating demands and the move from the EU is, in my mind, a localism choice.
I agree with you about the non-Brexit btw. If the Labour party move towards it in attempt to secure the working class vote in more urban areas, May (as likely winner of the Tory contest) will set a long lead in before A50 is considered. A further austerity budget blamed on the effects of leave and the leave campaign will be derailed in the next parliament. I thought we'd be moving towards that with a coalition by Autumn 2017. If Labour rein back and Corbyn leaves that may happen, but I think it's unlikely now and setting the country up for at least 2 more parliaments of Conservative government. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:34 - Jul 2 with 2459 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:44 - Jul 2 by E17hoop |
Thanks for your reply. I work in a politically sensitive role so am bound by certain conventions in respect of political activity.
What interests me is how the approach you are suggesting seems to be the agenda behind Corbyn and the Labour leadership's attitude to the issue. The direction he is taking is mirrored in your comments but I find it difficult to see how it will work.
I've seen it through my work as ideological decisions are made and then handed over to officers to make it happen. And they can't. There are pockets of it across London and other urban areas, but in the wider population there isn't an appetite for a change of this magnitude. As we've seen, the financial markets find uncertainty damaging and, like it or not, the UK relies on financial market stability to help it run. We've seen, for example, that 4 local councils - Cornwall Council, Guildford and Warrington Borough Councils, and Lancashire County Council - have had their credit ratings downgraded since last week. These 4 councils will now have to find other funding streams to balance the additional costs which they will incur through borrowing to deliver their local services.
The pockets that I've seen have been the secondary and tertiary services that local communities are happy to take governance and oversight of. What they are less willing to do is support primary services, especially in the areas of social care. I can't see how this will improve from leaving the EU. Like agriculture, finding workers willing to fill roles in social care is difficult and closing the market down to EU candidates will have a massive impact on recruitment. There is a gap in the recruitment of social workers, especially in the adult care sector at present and the idea that by removing EU migrants from these jobs and back -filling them with workers from the UK will take up to a generation. I don't see a government in the near future making a commitment to spend that money to fund those roles.
As an aside, calling people uninitiated won't help convince people that the belief you have is going to work; if anything it's pejorative language which alienates and divides and makes people less likely to engage (cf DannytheR's post at 10.00). |
The uninitiated thing was a joke!!! Jesus!
I'm well aware of the levels of language of alienation and division going on and how much people like Danny are feeding into it. Just look at how that was the only thing he has mentioned of my post, not a jot of debate in him. Look at my communications with him on the day after the vote to see my true intentions and thoughts towards all this division.
It is, as always, an aspect that is being greatly ramped up by the media. At a time when we should be looking for our common ground we are being encouraged to rabidly defend our pack with rage, hatred, condemnation and belittlement of 'them'. Watching some of my fellow left leaners labelling and condemning whole communities as nothing more than racist little englanders or some such without allowing for any nuance at all is a painful irony as they are mirroring the very same psychological mechanics of arrogant ignorance that lead to people to be racist in the first place.
Division among us works very well for the forces that I think most of us are opposed to. We all make our individual choice about what we do with that no matter our frustrations, anger or sense of how wrong we feel others are.
I understand your thoughts on filling certain jobs, and even though immigration is not my focus, as I said before no one is saying lets get rid of everyone! Well maybe a few people are but they are best ignored. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 12:47]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:38 - Jul 2 with 2457 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:52 - Jul 2 by BasingstokeR |
"I'm a little lost as to why people are so angry that we have voted to remove ourselves from an organisation planning to spring such democracy crushing legislation on its members."
I may be wrong but I don't think people are angry about what's happened when diluted down to just this angle ^^^
On this angle alone; I think a number of people believe we are still (EU aside) governed by an organisation planning to spring such democracy crushing legislation on our country on its own; with (potentially) a fixed term parliament to the end of the decade and an electoral system which means a single party can be landslide majority elected on 5million votes less than either side got in last Thursday's poll. |
I agree, democracy needs a massive shake up, now seems a good time.
Democracy crushing legislation brought in by people that we get to vote for every 5 years VERSUS Democracy crushing legislation enforced by unelected people whose names we don't even know.
Not the finest choice in the world but at least with the former their is a slim chance of resistance. With the latter none is allowed. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 12:54]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:52 - Jul 2 with 2441 views | E17hoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:34 - Jul 2 by 1BobbyHazell |
The uninitiated thing was a joke!!! Jesus!
I'm well aware of the levels of language of alienation and division going on and how much people like Danny are feeding into it. Just look at how that was the only thing he has mentioned of my post, not a jot of debate in him. Look at my communications with him on the day after the vote to see my true intentions and thoughts towards all this division.
It is, as always, an aspect that is being greatly ramped up by the media. At a time when we should be looking for our common ground we are being encouraged to rabidly defend our pack with rage, hatred, condemnation and belittlement of 'them'. Watching some of my fellow left leaners labelling and condemning whole communities as nothing more than racist little englanders or some such without allowing for any nuance at all is a painful irony as they are mirroring the very same psychological mechanics of arrogant ignorance that lead to people to be racist in the first place.
Division among us works very well for the forces that I think most of us are opposed to. We all make our individual choice about what we do with that no matter our frustrations, anger or sense of how wrong we feel others are.
I understand your thoughts on filling certain jobs, and even though immigration is not my focus, as I said before no one is saying lets get rid of everyone! Well maybe a few people are but they are best ignored. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 12:47]
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Unfortunately, the nuance of language is what people are picking up on and humour isn't necessarily easy to read.
I feel that the free movement of labour is going to be the critical point on how any exit negotiations are managed. There is an argument that a recession, allied with a 'send 'em back' approach would be advantageous; lower employment opportunities and the fluid migrant community will be willing to move creating space for the UK workforce. Assuming that those jobs are what people:
a) want to do
b) are competent to do
c) feel are rewarded fairly
Similarly, as you are saying not to get rid of everyone, others are keen to remove anyone who doesn't 'qualify' to be here. We have no idea what a suitable level of migrant workers is and no projections are possible to establish if, as a result of exit, sectors will be short of potential employees.
This is, in my view, an expensive and dangerous position to be in. Using social care as an example again, this is expensive because we're already seeing the cost of social care rising as workers use temporary contracts to aggregate as much income as possible. This creates more uncertainty in the job market and creates wage inflation when local authorities can ill afford to pay more. A quick look at agency costs to the NHS demonstrates that it is more than a single sector issue.
It is dangerous because an obvious next step would be to 'loosen' the requirements of the profession. Will the public accept unqualified social workers from the UK over competent and qualified workers from the EU? Again, I'm not sure people considered the consequences of this by voting leave. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:00 - Jul 2 with 2433 views | 1BobbyHazell |
Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the Labour Availability issue, personally I don't see a situation where there will be a sudden dearth of workers where they are needed. Many of the workers in the areas you talk of are non-eu as well, we are still an attractive proposition to enough of the world's workers. Despite the potential wishes of some of the more extreme members of our community I don't forsee us 'sending them all back'.
I also think mid to long term plans can be made re training etc as and when required although as I always bang on about we'll need to stop believing that we have to continue handing over our 'money' to the elite as opposed to using it for the good of our communities. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 13:03]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:30 - Jul 2 with 2362 views | TacticalR |
'On the second day (of a two-day summit in Brussels) Mr Cameron was sent home while the other 27 European leaders continued without him...Mr Tsipras was surprised that Mr Cameron appeared to have no plan in the event of a Brexit vote, but then neither did Mr Johnson nor Mr Gove. Britain effectively ended the week with no plan, no government and no opposition.'
Intrigue and betrayal stalk UK’s corridors of power
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1e4bc772-3f71-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:25 - Jul 2 with 2253 views | E17hoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:00 - Jul 2 by 1BobbyHazell |
Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the Labour Availability issue, personally I don't see a situation where there will be a sudden dearth of workers where they are needed. Many of the workers in the areas you talk of are non-eu as well, we are still an attractive proposition to enough of the world's workers. Despite the potential wishes of some of the more extreme members of our community I don't forsee us 'sending them all back'.
I also think mid to long term plans can be made re training etc as and when required although as I always bang on about we'll need to stop believing that we have to continue handing over our 'money' to the elite as opposed to using it for the good of our communities. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 13:03]
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The mid to long term plans for education are in disarray. Before the referendum, Nick Boles said the Apprenticeship Levy would likely be impacted by a leave vote. He now says it won't Yet the BIS still haven't sorted out the guidance for the levy collection, how public sector organisations will be required to fill their 2.3% target, the calculation of headcount or FTE, the provider framework, the completion of the area reviews or finalising the Trailblazer groups' new apprenticeship standards.
If this policy, promising 3m apprentices can't get off the ground, it's difficult to believe that a more trained and available workforce will be available following the impact of any restrictions of mobility of the EU labour market.
If we are to rely on non-EU migrants, it will be necessary to aggregate and establish certification and qualification standards for every nation we wish to bring in and across each industrial sector. The UK will need to establish equivalence of every overseas workplace qualification independently, where the EU would have agreed them at scale. That's going to be a complicated, expensive and a risky process.
If a further austerity budget is coming, support for the HE and FE sectors will need to be increased to build capacity. Within current funding plans this isn't proposed as the raising of the Apprenticeship Levy was expected to provide the required funds. Unfortunately, within a contracting economy, reducing payrolls, and the shadow of a .5% tax on a £3m payroll, I would be unsurprised if it was delayed. This could have catastrophic effects on the vocational sector and would delay the delivery of a skilled workforce.
The free movement of labour is pivotal to the exit strategy and there are no plans for it - this is why belief is difficult. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:15 - Jul 2 with 2208 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:39 - Jul 2 by THEBUSH |
I am truly amazed at the length of the threads on this 'Brexit My Thoughts' thread.
Mainly it's from the leavers giving their excuses for leaving the EU.
There's no doubt in my mind, it's all about immigration, that's it pure and simple, so why not say that ?
So much of this thread has been taken up by diatribe spouted out in the Sun, the Mail and the media in general  [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 11:47]
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I think there’s a few reasons, but immigration is definitely a big factor. People pretending it’s got no role in all this are being dishonest I think. What I didn’t realise until this week is just how much it’s also all about teaching “the other side” a lesson - and the other side aren’t politicans or the establishment, it’s other ordinary people. Londoners, “lefties,” anyone you don’t agree with or you think has different values from you.
I had a butchers at vblockranger’s twitter after he was talking on here about how much fun he was having on social media. He was posting a photograph of a family in EU t-shirts at the pro-Europe march today, taking the piss out of them as a family. The kid in the picture couldn’t have been more than 5 years old. Is that who we are now? Grown men publicly taking the piss out of children?
I think people are drunk on revenge, and my worry is it’s going to get worse. It won’t be revenge against the people who actually deserve it either.
What was it someone said on here, we couldn’t be trusted in a war? And we’d burn our passports? So we’re traitors, in other words, because we want a different sort of country.
Once that sort of thinking takes hold, all bets are off. Very bad times. [Post edited 3 Jul 2016 0:19]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:16 - Jul 2 with 2191 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:17 - Jul 2 by QPR_John |
" Works with a scientific research body who used to get much of their funding from the EU. Told yesterday they can't guarantee her job beyond Christmas. "
It might be a naïve question and I am happy to be put right but where does the EU get its money from to fund such research. Also as we will still be in the EU for two years after article 50 why will funding dry up at Christmas. |
The teams that she works with get almost all their funding from programmes run by the European Research Council. She was taken on by her department largely to help plan and provide specialist admin with funding applications - she’s been doing this kind of work since 2007, and in that time the ERC has always been far and away the biggest game in town for funding science research. (Britain is a net receiver of research funds from the EU - we’ve had literally billions more back from their R&D budget than we’ve put in).Â
Cameron said last week existing ERC contracts will be honoured and that until Article 50 is triggered British researchers will still be able to apply for funds. But my sister-in-law says that on the ground her bosses have told them expectations need to be realistic about where future EU funds are now likely to be allocated.Â
Research is like any job: individal contracts are usually short-term, but they’re often awarded in the context of a longer-term relationship between the funders and the university or institute, where one programme of research could lead to another if the results merited it. The feeling is that those long-term relationships with the ERC will now start to break down, because the assumption has to be that at some point Britain simply won’t be in the EU anymore.
The way she just put it to me was that there’s only so long an EU funder can justify rejecting applications from researchers from other EU countries in favour of one which may very well be out of the EU by the time the research is complete.Â
Anecdotally people are already finding things have changed - she said British researchers she knows have already been politely told by European consortia looking for funding that they won’t be able to include them on their teams. Her own contract comes up in December, and she’s been advised by her manager that unless something changes between now and then, her role probably won’t be viable full-time for 2017.Â
She said in theory the UK government could guarantee to replace ERC funding at the same levels after Article 50, but that would be a massive hit financally given the gulf between what we’ve been putting in and what we get out. There’s also no organisation here of anything like the same scale to actually evaluate applications. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:10 - Jul 3 with 1944 views | Brightonhoop |
Quite simply, having voted out, the best option is to send the RAF to bomb Berlin. Before they bomb us. Or Norfolk. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:36 - Jul 3 with 1915 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:16 - Jul 2 by DannytheR |
The teams that she works with get almost all their funding from programmes run by the European Research Council. She was taken on by her department largely to help plan and provide specialist admin with funding applications - she’s been doing this kind of work since 2007, and in that time the ERC has always been far and away the biggest game in town for funding science research. (Britain is a net receiver of research funds from the EU - we’ve had literally billions more back from their R&D budget than we’ve put in).Â
Cameron said last week existing ERC contracts will be honoured and that until Article 50 is triggered British researchers will still be able to apply for funds. But my sister-in-law says that on the ground her bosses have told them expectations need to be realistic about where future EU funds are now likely to be allocated.Â
Research is like any job: individal contracts are usually short-term, but they’re often awarded in the context of a longer-term relationship between the funders and the university or institute, where one programme of research could lead to another if the results merited it. The feeling is that those long-term relationships with the ERC will now start to break down, because the assumption has to be that at some point Britain simply won’t be in the EU anymore.
The way she just put it to me was that there’s only so long an EU funder can justify rejecting applications from researchers from other EU countries in favour of one which may very well be out of the EU by the time the research is complete.Â
Anecdotally people are already finding things have changed - she said British researchers she knows have already been politely told by European consortia looking for funding that they won’t be able to include them on their teams. Her own contract comes up in December, and she’s been advised by her manager that unless something changes between now and then, her role probably won’t be viable full-time for 2017.Â
She said in theory the UK government could guarantee to replace ERC funding at the same levels after Article 50, but that would be a massive hit financally given the gulf between what we’ve been putting in and what we get out. There’s also no organisation here of anything like the same scale to actually evaluate applications. |
I understand we are a net contributer to the EU but you say we are a net beneficiary of the ERC fund so do we decide how our contribution is distributed. | | | |
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