| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. 18:05 - Oct 5 with 27133 views | KeithHaynes |
Spurs are in talks as we disclosed earlier, however there is a chance this could happen tonight. * Update* Fortunately for Swans fans their low rating and offer for Rodon stalled matters last night. We hear today Daniel Levy is prepared to sit it out for as long as possible forcing other clubs to place bids and test the water.
6th Oct 2020 Now the European squad submissions are all but done today, West Ham could enter in to a bidding war, and if Joe has to go then hopefully the price gets to the real figure we all believe he is worth.
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 13:11 - Oct 9 with 1505 views | Badlands |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 12:53 - Oct 9 by Chief |
Was looking at the whole picture.
We aren't cat 1 anymore, we've dropped as a cost cutting exercise. |
Yes.
And that is where we are ... it is similar to whee we were before we are promote to the pl. |  |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 13:20 - Oct 9 with 1495 views | Chief |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 13:11 - Oct 9 by Badlands |
Yes.
And that is where we are ... it is similar to whee we were before we are promote to the pl. |
And this is the sad thing.
We spend less now than we did then despite having had (and still having) far more income. |  |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 13:27 - Oct 9 with 1480 views | onehunglow |
Chief.
I still stand staggered as to where all the money went.
We've returned to being paupers and fallen from the top table dramatically. |  |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:09 - Oct 9 with 1436 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 11:29 - Oct 9 by Chief |
Its a shame our majority owners who have the 'resources and motivation to make us competitive have downgraded it. Constant rumours about them wanting to sell it off completely too. |
Category one hasn’t produced anybody though.
Doesn’t seem cost effective. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:25 - Oct 9 with 1423 views | Chief |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:09 - Oct 9 by Dr_Parnassus |
Category one hasn’t produced anybody though.
Doesn’t seem cost effective. |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:29 - Oct 9 with 1414 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:25 - Oct 9 by Chief |
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Did you mean to type something there?
I don’t see it anyway. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:40 - Oct 9 with 1399 views | KGriz16 |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 13:27 - Oct 9 by onehunglow |
Chief.
I still stand staggered as to where all the money went.
We've returned to being paupers and fallen from the top table dramatically. |
80% of our turnover being wages, poor transfer business, drop in TV revenue and revenue in general from sponsorship etc. |  | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:58 - Oct 9 with 1381 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:09 - Oct 9 by Dr_Parnassus |
Category one hasn’t produced anybody though.
Doesn’t seem cost effective. |
Dan James and Cabango so far isn’t it?
Paid for Mcburnie [Post edited 9 Oct 2020 14:59]
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:01 - Oct 9 with 1375 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 14:58 - Oct 9 by 34dfgdf54 |
Dan James and Cabango so far isn’t it?
Paid for Mcburnie [Post edited 9 Oct 2020 14:59]
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2016/17 we attained category one status.
We signed Dan James in 2014 and Oli McBurnie in 2015. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:07 - Oct 9 with 1369 views | Boundy |
Without having cat 1 status its unlikely we would or could have signed them , its not all about bringing kids in from 8 years of age . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:09 - Oct 9 with 1366 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:07 - Oct 9 by Boundy |
Without having cat 1 status its unlikely we would or could have signed them , its not all about bringing kids in from 8 years of age . |
We signed them all without category one status.
Including Cabango.
I can’t think of a notable signing we made off the back of category one status. Seems to be a bit of a myth among our fanbase. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:32 - Oct 9 with 1331 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:01 - Oct 9 by Dr_Parnassus |
2016/17 we attained category one status.
We signed Dan James in 2014 and Oli McBurnie in 2015. |
We started playing Cat 1 fixtures in August 2015, the remaining facilities work was completed that season and full audit passed in summer 2016. I think Cabango would have been joining an effectively Cat 1 setup when he came in as a scholar. Two seasons in a Cat 1 academy, then the TNS loan, half a season back in u23s and then a first team player.
The legacy of Cat 1 standards will hopefully be seen in years to come with the scholars coming through this season and next. Some very decent players in those groups. Hopefully we can hang on to all of them. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 23:58 - Oct 9 with 1129 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:32 - Oct 9 by jasper_T |
We started playing Cat 1 fixtures in August 2015, the remaining facilities work was completed that season and full audit passed in summer 2016. I think Cabango would have been joining an effectively Cat 1 setup when he came in as a scholar. Two seasons in a Cat 1 academy, then the TNS loan, half a season back in u23s and then a first team player.
The legacy of Cat 1 standards will hopefully be seen in years to come with the scholars coming through this season and next. Some very decent players in those groups. Hopefully we can hang on to all of them. |
Its not going to happen.
The club prefers youngsters in on loan from Chelsea and Liverpool.
Fact. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:03 - Oct 10 with 1126 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:32 - Oct 9 by jasper_T |
We started playing Cat 1 fixtures in August 2015, the remaining facilities work was completed that season and full audit passed in summer 2016. I think Cabango would have been joining an effectively Cat 1 setup when he came in as a scholar. Two seasons in a Cat 1 academy, then the TNS loan, half a season back in u23s and then a first team player.
The legacy of Cat 1 standards will hopefully be seen in years to come with the scholars coming through this season and next. Some very decent players in those groups. Hopefully we can hang on to all of them. |
Still it’s a huge stretch to say any of the players we have brought through or sold is due to category one status.
The main two things of category one status is the amount of time kids can spend there as they can study and also the ability to poach other clubs youth nationally.
Cabango came to us as a 16 year old prior to getting Category one so wouldn’t have had the schooling benefit and we didn’t poach him using the category one benefit. Same goes for James and McBurnie.
We may see the fruits in the future but it’s a very expensive thing that hasn’t proven cost effective thus far. It has cost almost £15m since we had it. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:05 - Oct 10 with 1125 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 15:09 - Oct 9 by Dr_Parnassus |
We signed them all without category one status.
Including Cabango.
I can’t think of a notable signing we made off the back of category one status. Seems to be a bit of a myth among our fanbase. |
I agree with you.
The Academy cost tens of millions, and went missing in action when we needed their players most.
Rodon and Roberts would have emerged anyway.
Lazy coaches - almost none of whom have coached elsewhere - bringing in average players from elsewhere (mostly) and then branding them Swans products.
The u23s did a lap of honour like the u9s, embarrassing.
Amateur hour since Alan Curtis left. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:49 - Oct 10 with 1102 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:03 - Oct 10 by Dr_Parnassus |
Still it’s a huge stretch to say any of the players we have brought through or sold is due to category one status.
The main two things of category one status is the amount of time kids can spend there as they can study and also the ability to poach other clubs youth nationally.
Cabango came to us as a 16 year old prior to getting Category one so wouldn’t have had the schooling benefit and we didn’t poach him using the category one benefit. Same goes for James and McBurnie.
We may see the fruits in the future but it’s a very expensive thing that hasn’t proven cost effective thus far. It has cost almost £15m since we had it. |
It's important not to conflate Cat 1 benefits with the total academy bill. Getting to Cat 2 in 2013 represented a large investment in facilities and running costs for that are still going to be net >£1m a year after grants. We've not spent £15m on just poaching rights and national recruitment of u16s that we barely ever used.
What we lacked in the PL years was a pathway to the first team. Ben Davies' breakthrough came before Cat 2 even. Was a closed shop after that with expensive signings blocking the road for anything but the odd cup appearance (Sheehan, Shephard) or final day cameo (Gorre). A few Scotsmen who'd played senior football back home were given games here and there. Players tearing up u23s were promised senior minutes that never materialised, as management/ownership needed us to be "safe" first (DJ). Players can't contribute if they're never called upon.
Cabango had the choice between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Did we poach him? Or were we simply the most attractive option? [Post edited 10 Oct 2020 1:01]
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:55 - Oct 10 with 1094 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 23:58 - Oct 9 by Kilkennyjack |
Its not going to happen.
The club prefers youngsters in on loan from Chelsea and Liverpool.
Fact. |
One came in from Chelsea, signed by the new head of academy recruitment. Might catch Cooper's eye. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:59 - Oct 10 with 1092 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:49 - Oct 10 by jasper_T |
It's important not to conflate Cat 1 benefits with the total academy bill. Getting to Cat 2 in 2013 represented a large investment in facilities and running costs for that are still going to be net >£1m a year after grants. We've not spent £15m on just poaching rights and national recruitment of u16s that we barely ever used.
What we lacked in the PL years was a pathway to the first team. Ben Davies' breakthrough came before Cat 2 even. Was a closed shop after that with expensive signings blocking the road for anything but the odd cup appearance (Sheehan, Shephard) or final day cameo (Gorre). A few Scotsmen who'd played senior football back home were given games here and there. Players tearing up u23s were promised senior minutes that never materialised, as management/ownership needed us to be "safe" first (DJ). Players can't contribute if they're never called upon.
Cabango had the choice between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Did we poach him? Or were we simply the most attractive option? [Post edited 10 Oct 2020 1:01]
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I’m not.
Having an academy is fantastic, having category one is not vital and hasn’t proven so while we had it.
Category One costs £4m a year to run, so Category One alone cost that, multiplied by the years it was in place (4) so it cost £16m. The difference between Category One and two is massive in terms of cost savings as there isn’t the required staff or staffing hours related.
Cabango came to us because since he was 6 years old we were a Premier League club, it was a no brainer. That was the key about our success, a whole generation of kids saw Swansea as a stable Premier League club. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 01:18 - Oct 10 with 1084 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:59 - Oct 10 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m not.
Having an academy is fantastic, having category one is not vital and hasn’t proven so while we had it.
Category One costs £4m a year to run, so Category One alone cost that, multiplied by the years it was in place (4) so it cost £16m. The difference between Category One and two is massive in terms of cost savings as there isn’t the required staff or staffing hours related.
Cabango came to us because since he was 6 years old we were a Premier League club, it was a no brainer. That was the key about our success, a whole generation of kids saw Swansea as a stable Premier League club. |
The difference in coaching costs between Cat 1 & 2 isn't massive. Especially in the upper age groups (youth and scholarship phases) you're talking something like 8 kids per coach vs 10 kids per coach, and maybe 2/3rds the minimum coaching hours. The big savings don't really kick in until Cat 3 which is what many expected us to drop to, or 4 which has you shut the young groups down entirely and start with 16 year olds.
There's a lot of variation within each category, obviously. An ambitious Cat 2 setup can cost as much as a barebones Cat 1 one. It's still an arms race within each category with clubs trying to outdo each other and attract talent. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 01:32 - Oct 10 with 1078 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 01:18 - Oct 10 by jasper_T |
The difference in coaching costs between Cat 1 & 2 isn't massive. Especially in the upper age groups (youth and scholarship phases) you're talking something like 8 kids per coach vs 10 kids per coach, and maybe 2/3rds the minimum coaching hours. The big savings don't really kick in until Cat 3 which is what many expected us to drop to, or 4 which has you shut the young groups down entirely and start with 16 year olds.
There's a lot of variation within each category, obviously. An ambitious Cat 2 setup can cost as much as a barebones Cat 1 one. It's still an arms race within each category with clubs trying to outdo each other and attract talent. |
But the point is we are trying to cut our cloth accordingly and are doing it by academy downgrading.
Downgrading from a category which really hasn’t produced the fruit many seem to think. Everyone I ask mentions Dan James and Ollie McBurnie, yet it’s just not accurate.
We didn’t downgrade just to spite people, we did it to save money in an area that wasn’t proving cost effective. | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 01:46 - Oct 10 with 1066 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 01:32 - Oct 10 by Dr_Parnassus |
But the point is we are trying to cut our cloth accordingly and are doing it by academy downgrading.
Downgrading from a category which really hasn’t produced the fruit many seem to think. Everyone I ask mentions Dan James and Ollie McBurnie, yet it’s just not accurate.
We didn’t downgrade just to spite people, we did it to save money in an area that wasn’t proving cost effective. |
I do agree that downgrading isn't the end of the world, as my posts over the last year or so probably make clear. We didn't recruit nationally for u12s-u16s. We don't have the money to poach players for the u18s. We can't spend £300k a head on Scotsmen to make our u23s competitive with the super clubs. Cat 2 coaching standards aren't bad and the PDL is our level, competing with clubs operating in much the same way we do.
But I was a massive advocate for spending as much as possible on the academy while we were in the PL (as a % of our budget it was drops in a bucket), and haven't changed my mind on that regardless of the lack of players coming through in those years. DJ, Rodon and Roberts do largely predate Cat 1 status, but youth development starts at u9s so there was always going to be significant delay in seeing true results of the investment. This year's local u16s will have spent their entire foundation and youth phases in a Cat 2+ environment. Give it another 4 or 5 years and we'll see how much that was worth. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 07:06 - Oct 10 with 1018 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:05 - Oct 10 by Kilkennyjack |
I agree with you.
The Academy cost tens of millions, and went missing in action when we needed their players most.
Rodon and Roberts would have emerged anyway.
Lazy coaches - almost none of whom have coached elsewhere - bringing in average players from elsewhere (mostly) and then branding them Swans products.
The u23s did a lap of honour like the u9s, embarrassing.
Amateur hour since Alan Curtis left. |
I’d say the complete opposite, the players have broken through when we needed them most. We are apparently in a bad position financially now, imagine where we we would be without the money generated from our academy graduate sales?
If you mean they went missing the year we got relegated, I’d say we didn’t have a manager balls enough to chuck them in, someone like DJ would of made a huge difference the year we went down. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 07:51 - Oct 10 with 1003 views | Thornburyswan |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 07:06 - Oct 10 by 34dfgdf54 |
I’d say the complete opposite, the players have broken through when we needed them most. We are apparently in a bad position financially now, imagine where we we would be without the money generated from our academy graduate sales?
If you mean they went missing the year we got relegated, I’d say we didn’t have a manager balls enough to chuck them in, someone like DJ would of made a huge difference the year we went down. |
Similar to my thoughts Risca, not sure I get fans fixation on unless we signed a kid up at 8/9 year old & they went through all our age groups before joining the first team & becoming a star they somehow don’t count & any coaching our under age coaches gave was worthless.
Anyone who has helped a child grow & learn any skill will know it goes in phases & they progress at different rates & at different ages - sometimes a relatively short period of development can be the key to the next level break through.
For me the progression, profile & ultimately fees produced by the Academy has, in my mind, significantly contributed to us stabilising in the Championship & still attracting youngsters to our club - without it I suspect we’d be at least in League 1. | | | |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 09:56 - Oct 10 with 916 views | Catullus |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 00:49 - Oct 10 by jasper_T |
It's important not to conflate Cat 1 benefits with the total academy bill. Getting to Cat 2 in 2013 represented a large investment in facilities and running costs for that are still going to be net >£1m a year after grants. We've not spent £15m on just poaching rights and national recruitment of u16s that we barely ever used.
What we lacked in the PL years was a pathway to the first team. Ben Davies' breakthrough came before Cat 2 even. Was a closed shop after that with expensive signings blocking the road for anything but the odd cup appearance (Sheehan, Shephard) or final day cameo (Gorre). A few Scotsmen who'd played senior football back home were given games here and there. Players tearing up u23s were promised senior minutes that never materialised, as management/ownership needed us to be "safe" first (DJ). Players can't contribute if they're never called upon.
Cabango had the choice between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Did we poach him? Or were we simply the most attractive option? [Post edited 10 Oct 2020 1:01]
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What you say there is the ultimate argument for not having a cat 1 academy. What is the point if managers never give these kids a chance?
Way back when I had questioned the point of the academy because we didn't have players bursting through. It takes time people said, we'll see the benefits in the future they said. Will we? Not now the academy is downgraded.
Cat 1, what was the full cost per season? Then how many players made it to the first team? It seems to me like a waste of money. The big teams can afford these academies, for a club like us aren't we better off looking for the good youngsters who never get a chance at the big teams and trying to pinch them at 17/18/19? | |
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| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 10:20 - Oct 10 with 884 views | jasper_T |
| Joe Rodon speculation is accurate : *Update* Levy will sit it out if he has to. on 09:56 - Oct 10 by Catullus |
What you say there is the ultimate argument for not having a cat 1 academy. What is the point if managers never give these kids a chance?
Way back when I had questioned the point of the academy because we didn't have players bursting through. It takes time people said, we'll see the benefits in the future they said. Will we? Not now the academy is downgraded.
Cat 1, what was the full cost per season? Then how many players made it to the first team? It seems to me like a waste of money. The big teams can afford these academies, for a club like us aren't we better off looking for the good youngsters who never get a chance at the big teams and trying to pinch them at 17/18/19? |
Trevor Birch: "To give you an idea of the costs involved in operating Category One status you are looking at around £3m net per year." Chris Wathan reported the gross cost at around £5m and that downgrading to Cat 3 "could have cut spending to below £1m a year. Moving to a Category Two status is thought to make little difference financially."
Downgrading to Cat 2 doesn't mean we won't produce players, or that the players already in the system stop developing. Shutting the foundation and youth phases (Cat 4) would prevent access to players within our catchment area, which would stop the next Rodon, Roberts, Cooper, Cullen etc. from popping up. We definitely don't want the current group of u16s going elsewhere before we lock them down on scholarships.
It's easy to focus on the successes but we spent millions on academy players that didn't make the grade as well. McBurnie, Fulton and Byers worth the investment. Kingsley contributed. DJ was a Cat 2 setup poaching from a Cat 3, not something we could with a further downgrade. Matt Grimes cost £1.75m, outside our price range for a young player. | | | |
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