| General election looming? 19:49 - Oct 22 with 28402 views | Daley_Lama |
Who would people vote in in Rochdale?
Lab? A bloke who has voted against every single attempt to deliver Brexit?
Lib: A bloke or woman who would do the same?
Tory? In Rochdale?
I reckon this town could actually vote in a Farage candidate if a general election was called. |  |
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| General election looming? on 20:56 - Oct 23 with 2181 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 18:40 - Oct 23 by Brierls |
Why? Because the Leave campaign was built on lies. On balance there were a few exagerated, but more realistic, points from the Remain campaign too.
A large percentage of people voting Leave were voting based on propaganda.
No doubt I'll get shot down for this, but this article from the Independent summarise the misinformation pretty well...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-referendum-lies-
A linked article details the lies around additional NHS funding and Immigration figures, which were the cornerstone of the Leave campaign...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-mon
An A-Z on Brexit lies...
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies
The attitude of "the country has spoken, it doesn't matter that they were mislead" is bonkers.
There are infinitely more facts available now and people have had no choice but to live through the Brexit debacle. People are better placed to make an informed decision, but admittedly will never be in possesion of all the facts.
That's why, G.
I very rarely get involved in political discussion, but Brexit boils my piss. I'm stepping away from this thread before my bladder explodes and I scald myself. |
Any mature adult voter that could not make their own mind up about voting leave or remain based on that campaign is not worth considering.
The campaign to leave began with Cameron stating he would renegotiate our terms of membership and if that failed would hold a referendum. All parties agreed to implement the result.
The desire for extremes of change have been in the public domain for years, G, so do not belittle anyone's intelligence that sloganised red buses have created this piss-boiling mess. |  |
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| General election looming? on 21:06 - Oct 23 with 2151 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 23 by dalenumber2 |
People are entitled to and will change their minds, that's why we have general elections every few years. As the original referendum was three years ago and due to the fact that we are now more informed, I think a second referendum is the only way forward. It is completely democratic to do this - we can vote the same or differently, and if we get a definite yes to a no deal, Boris' deal or remain then this would give a final verdict which will only be helpful in moving forward. |
they do the have the right to change their minds and to re-vote but only after the first vote has been implemented - the new PM has to enter No 10 before we have another General Election to change the PM |  |
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| General election looming? on 21:08 - Oct 23 with 2148 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 14:59 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
But we can have a general election at least every 5 years. |
and we can have a rejoin referendum the day after we've left | |
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| General election looming? on 21:24 - Oct 23 with 2114 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 21:08 - Oct 23 by tony_roch975 |
and we can have a rejoin referendum the day after we've left |
If we have no deal Brexit. Then 5 years later do we want to rejoin referendum. Yes would win with an absolute landslide. | |
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| General election looming? on 21:26 - Oct 23 with 2108 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 21:24 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
If we have no deal Brexit. Then 5 years later do we want to rejoin referendum. Yes would win with an absolute landslide. |
Is that according to your mate? |  |
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| General election looming? on 21:33 - Oct 23 with 2103 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 21:26 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
Is that according to your mate? |
No, that is my opinion. As much as a surprise as it might be, I do have friends.  One did say the lies were necessary to persuade those on the fence and get the vote through. | |
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| General election looming? on 21:40 - Oct 23 with 2087 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 21:33 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
No, that is my opinion. As much as a surprise as it might be, I do have friends. One did say the lies were necessary to persuade those on the fence and get the vote through. |
The only people for whom those claims by the Leave campaign hold any significance appear to be Remainers who think those who voted Leave simply fell for such claims, without having the sense to weigh up spurious claims on both sides then make their own minds up | |
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| General election looming? on 21:41 - Oct 23 with 2088 views | mikehunt |
If we do not leave (and effing soon) I will never vote again. What’s the point?
I’ve mentioned this before but this is nothing short of fascism - a ruling elite dismissing a public majority vote as an irrelevance. Because we are too thick to know what we voted for. How effing arrogant!!!
For us leavers, all that the tvvats in opposition can do is block leave but, apart from remain, what alternative are they offering? This is the usual European thing: keep voting until they get the answer they want and declare that is democracy.
Why is it not stressed that once we are out, that’s when negotiations begin in earnest. That’s when we can agree on deals that benefit our nation. Why is it never mentioned that the day we invoked Article whatever, we wrote into our statute that we align ourselves with all European rules. Only changing things after exiting if it improves on Euro standards - with their approval.
We have to leave! If it is a mistake and we become a basket case we can apply to rejoin the EU and, in the interim, apply to wealthier nations for financial aid (I’m joking). |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| General election looming? on 21:54 - Oct 23 with 2073 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 21:40 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
The only people for whom those claims by the Leave campaign hold any significance appear to be Remainers who think those who voted Leave simply fell for such claims, without having the sense to weigh up spurious claims on both sides then make their own minds up |
Of course, that doesn't to apply to all leave voters. But enough would have been swayed by the various claims that have been disproved.
Something that confused me, was that the right wing leave campaigners referered to the EU as a failed socialist experiment and called it the EUSSR. Then the likes of the RMT referred to it as a neo liberal, evil capitalist organisation. Surely it can't be both? | |
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| General election looming? on 22:02 - Oct 23 with 2055 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 21:54 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
Of course, that doesn't to apply to all leave voters. But enough would have been swayed by the various claims that have been disproved.
Something that confused me, was that the right wing leave campaigners referered to the EU as a failed socialist experiment and called it the EUSSR. Then the likes of the RMT referred to it as a neo liberal, evil capitalist organisation. Surely it can't be both? |
And what of those who voted Remain who were swayed by entirely spurious claims - disproven in short order by actual real-world events - such as damaging falls in economic performance in the immediate days after a vote to leave? Including by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer?
The real damage done by those Remainer claims has been the subsequent headshaking whenever similar claims have been made about future economic performance following Brexit; some of which might have some credence, but are now lumped into the "Project Fear" category
[Post edited 23 Oct 2019 22:13]
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| General election looming? on 22:22 - Oct 23 with 2022 views | BigDaveMyCock |
A general observation.
A lot of leavers stress that they knew exactly what they were voting for in the 2016 referendum. After less than two minutes speaking to them about Brexit, it is more often than not the case that they really didn’t. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 7:20]
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| General election looming? on 22:33 - Oct 23 with 2007 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 22:02 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
And what of those who voted Remain who were swayed by entirely spurious claims - disproven in short order by actual real-world events - such as damaging falls in economic performance in the immediate days after a vote to leave? Including by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer?
The real damage done by those Remainer claims has been the subsequent headshaking whenever similar claims have been made about future economic performance following Brexit; some of which might have some credence, but are now lumped into the "Project Fear" category
[Post edited 23 Oct 2019 22:13]
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Pound worth a 5th less to start with. Yes great if you are an exporter.
Do you really think JRM, BoJo, Rothermere, Barclay Bros, Murdoch, Farage et al give 2 hoots about us little people? | |
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| General election looming? on 22:40 - Oct 23 with 1997 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 22:33 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
Pound worth a 5th less to start with. Yes great if you are an exporter.
Do you really think JRM, BoJo, Rothermere, Barclay Bros, Murdoch, Farage et al give 2 hoots about us little people? |
Don't put yourself down James, you're as important as everyone else with a vote, which is why the result needs to be respected
Edit: or Juncker, Barnier, Tusk et al?
I'd rather not be given two hoots about by someone i can vote out than someone i can't [Post edited 23 Oct 2019 22:43]
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| General election looming? on 08:03 - Oct 24 with 1854 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 22:22 - Oct 23 by BigDaveMyCock |
A general observation.
A lot of leavers stress that they knew exactly what they were voting for in the 2016 referendum. After less than two minutes speaking to them about Brexit, it is more often than not the case that they really didn’t. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 7:20]
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Ask them about the Millenium bug.
Another load of bollox. | |
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| General election looming? on 08:03 - Oct 24 with 1854 views | finberty |
| General election looming? on 21:24 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
If we have no deal Brexit. Then 5 years later do we want to rejoin referendum. Yes would win with an absolute landslide. |
You're not making yourself clear James.
Do you mean 'yes' to whether to hold a rejoining referendum?
Or that the result of such a referendum would be 'yes'?
If it is the second, I assume the question you think would be put would be 'do you want to rejoin?' and not 'do you want to remain independent?'.
Otherwise you've just shot your own argument. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 08:54 - Oct 24 with 1830 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 08:03 - Oct 24 by finberty |
You're not making yourself clear James.
Do you mean 'yes' to whether to hold a rejoining referendum?
Or that the result of such a referendum would be 'yes'?
If it is the second, I assume the question you think would be put would be 'do you want to rejoin?' and not 'do you want to remain independent?'.
Otherwise you've just shot your own argument. |
There would be a clear majority for rejoining the EU. Although if they insisted we could only rejoin if we signed up to the euro....... | |
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| General election looming? on 09:38 - Oct 24 with 1810 views | DaleFan7 |
| General election looming? on 08:54 - Oct 24 by James1980 |
There would be a clear majority for rejoining the EU. Although if they insisted we could only rejoin if we signed up to the euro....... |
There's no way of knowing that until it happens. Anything to do with leaving the EU and the result of it is based on opinion (albeit of some 'experts') and hypothetics.
Without actually doing it, as we should, we will never know. It also depends on what you mean by 'clear' a majority of 1 should be enough in a democratic society, however, it's obvious at the moment that a majority of more than 1 million, isn't. MPs in constituencies that voted to leave should be driving forward in the Commons. The fact is, MPs are self serving, it doesn't matter what party they represent, 90% of them are, they will vote for what they want, not what the constituents who elected them want.
Do you really think someone like James Frith, born in London, is really arsed whether Bury has a football league team or not? No, he did it in his own interest to increase his potential of votes with Bury fans. What was the last good thing a Rochdale MP actually did for the town and its people? | | | |
| General election looming? on 10:07 - Oct 24 with 1777 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 09:38 - Oct 24 by DaleFan7 |
There's no way of knowing that until it happens. Anything to do with leaving the EU and the result of it is based on opinion (albeit of some 'experts') and hypothetics.
Without actually doing it, as we should, we will never know. It also depends on what you mean by 'clear' a majority of 1 should be enough in a democratic society, however, it's obvious at the moment that a majority of more than 1 million, isn't. MPs in constituencies that voted to leave should be driving forward in the Commons. The fact is, MPs are self serving, it doesn't matter what party they represent, 90% of them are, they will vote for what they want, not what the constituents who elected them want.
Do you really think someone like James Frith, born in London, is really arsed whether Bury has a football league team or not? No, he did it in his own interest to increase his potential of votes with Bury fans. What was the last good thing a Rochdale MP actually did for the town and its people? |
Have we got an aquaduct? | |
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| General election looming? on 10:09 - Oct 24 with 1776 views | finberty |
| General election looming? on 22:22 - Oct 23 by BigDaveMyCock |
A general observation.
A lot of leavers stress that they knew exactly what they were voting for in the 2016 referendum. After less than two minutes speaking to them about Brexit, it is more often than not the case that they really didn’t. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 7:20]
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Another general observation.
This was a binary vote, with only one of two legitimate responses possible.
Those who voted to leave may have done so for a variety of reasons (independence, accountability, economic opportunity, control of borders, time for change, opportunity for regional focus).
Those who voted to remain may have done so for a variety of reasons (maintaining a perceived status quo, membership of Single Market, membership of Customs Union, ease of passage through airport terminals, resistance to change, fear of being seen as isolationist, or other 'ist' as applicable, acceptance of overseas governance, acceptance of lack of accountability, acceptance of EU intransigence to UK's interests).
When faced with the ballot paper, those who voted to leave knew that they wanted to leave.
Just because those reasons differ from person to person does not invalidate those reasons, because they are relevant to that one person casting their one vote. | | | |
| General election looming? on 11:02 - Oct 24 with 1747 views | D_Alien |
Farage is only relevant in forcing the mainstream political parties to face up to the demand for either reform in the EU or independence from it. We didn't get reform, so the UK voted for independence
Anything else he says or does is pretty irrelevant, except when he stands up in the European parliament and tells them exactly how their bureaucracy, unaccountability and intransigence led to the aforementioned demand - it's always pretty amusing to watch their reaction to being called out | |
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| General election looming? on 11:28 - Oct 24 with 1720 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 11:02 - Oct 24 by D_Alien |
Farage is only relevant in forcing the mainstream political parties to face up to the demand for either reform in the EU or independence from it. We didn't get reform, so the UK voted for independence
Anything else he says or does is pretty irrelevant, except when he stands up in the European parliament and tells them exactly how their bureaucracy, unaccountability and intransigence led to the aforementioned demand - it's always pretty amusing to watch their reaction to being called out |
Would you have accepted 52-48 in favour of remain? Would you have accepted that as a mandate for a hard remain? | |
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| General election looming? on 11:38 - Oct 24 with 1699 views | finberty |
| General election looming? on 11:28 - Oct 24 by James1980 |
Would you have accepted 52-48 in favour of remain? Would you have accepted that as a mandate for a hard remain? |
Far be it from me to answer for D'Alien, but what is hard remain?
Is this a new thing?
Was it on the ballot paper for the People's Vote of 2016 (aka referendum?) | | | |
| General election looming? on 11:43 - Oct 24 with 1692 views | rod_leach |
| General election looming? on 08:03 - Oct 24 by judd |
Ask them about the Millenium bug.
Another load of bollox. |
You're completely wrong using this as a comparison, Judd. Many, many people put many, many hours, days & months of work, effort and money in to mitigate the effects of the millenium bug.
If it had been ignored and labelled as project fear, the world would have a completely different view of it. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 11:46 - Oct 24 with 1692 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 10:09 - Oct 24 by finberty |
Another general observation.
This was a binary vote, with only one of two legitimate responses possible.
Those who voted to leave may have done so for a variety of reasons (independence, accountability, economic opportunity, control of borders, time for change, opportunity for regional focus).
Those who voted to remain may have done so for a variety of reasons (maintaining a perceived status quo, membership of Single Market, membership of Customs Union, ease of passage through airport terminals, resistance to change, fear of being seen as isolationist, or other 'ist' as applicable, acceptance of overseas governance, acceptance of lack of accountability, acceptance of EU intransigence to UK's interests).
When faced with the ballot paper, those who voted to leave knew that they wanted to leave.
Just because those reasons differ from person to person does not invalidate those reasons, because they are relevant to that one person casting their one vote. |
I didn’t say it invalidated their vote. I was making a general observation from my discussions with leavers. To a person each make a general statement that the EU is somehow hindering them personally or more broadly the country in, for example, trade. Fine, but when one asks for a specific example of the hindrance nothing is provided. The worst example was the no deal/WTO enthusiasts. When you ask the reasonable question of which specific WTO rule they prefer over an EU rule you just get a perplexed look. At least remainers point to something tangible like the Single Market.
This is now where we are with the debate.
In the beginning it was going to be the easiest deal in history. It was also going to be hugely beneficial to the economy and return parliamentary sovereignty.
Then it transpired that it wasn’t the easiest deal in history. Economically, it was not going to be as bad as people make out and Parliament is full of assholes to the point of its prorogation.
Now, the debate is currently that we need Brexit because we voted for it. There seems to be no other compelling reason other than because we voted for it. [Post edited 24 Oct 2019 12:03]
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