| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 44877 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:42 - Dec 12 with 2226 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:40 - Dec 12 by daveB |
A General Election though is voting your MP in for the next 4 years so it's a fixed term and of course you do it again every 4 years. The Referendum was supposed to be a one off not a we'll do it again in 2 years if it goes wrong vote |
Is that not 5 years |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:46 - Dec 12 with 2227 views | CaptainPugwash |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:29 - Dec 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
On the day the average life expectancy of U.K. citizens dropped for the first time since the Second World War and we are on the brink of having medical, food, and material shortages on a scale not seen since U Boats roamed the channel , people are still saying ‘I can’t vote Corbyn because he switched the TV over to Countdown when Fiddler On The Roof was on in 1988’.
The Euro shaggers can get fvcked and Pschopath Brexitters can get fvcked. All they are arguing over is which is the most effeciant way of pulling our pants down: In the EU or out of it. |
Narrrrrrr...
Channel were pretty much U Boat free.
https://uboat.net/maps/channel.htm
Yo Ho! |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:51 - Dec 12 with 2213 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:42 - Dec 12 by daveB |
Why is her deal not leaving? The only way we stay in the EU with her deal is if we have to go to the backstop and we both choose to stay in that which I don't think benefits either side. |
Not quite true were the EU to choose to stay there is nothing we can do. If the backstop does not benefit either side surely it would have been the first thing sorted out. The fact it was not suggest the EU saw it as a bargaining point and good luck to them. They were negotiating for what they wanted with people who in reality wanted the same thing [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:51]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:01 - Dec 12 with 2206 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:38 - Dec 12 by daveB |
I agree it's the sensible option but how can we just ignore the first vote and do it again. I can't see how that works or how it would end as any vote with a less than 70% of the vote victory would be argued and fought against same as the last one was.
I'd rather we stayed in the EU but it would make an absolute mockery of democracy to do the same vote again. |
But wouldn't defining what the leave option looks like make it a different vote?
In the first vote people were allowed to believe leave could be whatever they wanted. Now we know what it is, it's not a betrayal to ask if that's what they wanted because by all accounts Mays deal isn't what a lot of leave voters wanted. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:05 - Dec 12 with 2200 views | derbyhoop |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 10:37 - Dec 12 by stevec |
Of course, if the EU really cared about Ireland they'd just carry on with a free trade deal with no provisions and the NI 'problem' would no longer be a problem.
I don't know why we've even entertained this stick we're being beaten with. When the EU say we need a border, we say 'well we're not putting a border in so you build a fckin border, and good luck with that'.
I can imagine the prospect of the IRA and UVF getting 'active' in Brussels, Paris and Berlin soon focusing their minds on an alternative. |
Sorry Steve, but under WTO rules you cannot have a different trade deal with 1 country without imposing the same level of tariffs, which could be zero, with all 168 countries. Even then tariff schedules would have to be submitted to WTO and agreed. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 8:07]
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| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:07 - Dec 12 with 2195 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:51 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
Not quite true were the EU to choose to stay there is nothing we can do. If the backstop does not benefit either side surely it would have been the first thing sorted out. The fact it was not suggest the EU saw it as a bargaining point and good luck to them. They were negotiating for what they wanted with people who in reality wanted the same thing [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:51]
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Well she tried to leave it to David Davis and he failed, not as easy as he thought as it turns out. The conservatives are an absolute mess. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:49 - Dec 12 with 2115 views | derbyhoop |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:07 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
Which is another way of saying the EU has us by the gonads is it not, so another reason to hate the organisation, glad to see you are finally agreeing with me Clive 🤪 |
Not at all. It's a reflection of 45 years of legislation, 13% arising from EU laws, where the UK has been a major player. Some of those rules are regulated by EU bodies, E.g. EMA, EBA, EASA, Euratom, etc.
A no deal means everything stops. As per Art 50, PARA 3, which states "All treaties shall cease to apply". We would need to replace all those regulations and create replacement bodies - just to stand still.
As Clive says "no deal" will be chaos. For months, possibly years. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:56 - Dec 12 with 2100 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:49 - Dec 12 by derbyhoop |
Not at all. It's a reflection of 45 years of legislation, 13% arising from EU laws, where the UK has been a major player. Some of those rules are regulated by EU bodies, E.g. EMA, EBA, EASA, Euratom, etc.
A no deal means everything stops. As per Art 50, PARA 3, which states "All treaties shall cease to apply". We would need to replace all those regulations and create replacement bodies - just to stand still.
As Clive says "no deal" will be chaos. For months, possibly years. |
They should have spent the last two years thrashing out these deals instead of the half arsed effort she came back with. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:01 - Dec 12 with 2083 views | derbyhoop |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 by Cliff |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |
I think the 3 options are right. Whether you can design a referendum with a 3 way choice is debateable. I have grave reservations about a Peoples Vote for the same reason the 1st one was so flawed. Its impossible to offer a binary choice on a hideoysly complex question. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:12 - Dec 12 with 2060 views | ted_hendrix |
She's won the confidence vote. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:16 - Dec 12 with 2044 views | Juzzie |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:12 - Dec 12 by ted_hendrix |
She's won the confidence vote. |
200 for
117 against
Maybe this was done to avoid any one of Rees-Mogg, BoJo etc. geeting to be the PM. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:29 - Dec 12 with 2022 views | derbyhoop |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:56 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
They should have spent the last two years thrashing out these deals instead of the half arsed effort she came back with. |
Except, as a member of the EU, you cannot do your own trade deals. Fair enough, as UK only trade deals could compromise the Single Market and the Customs Union.
What May's deal does is provide a Withdrawal Agreement, covering the Financial Settlement, Citizens Rights (mostly) and the Irish border. Thats all. Future trade deals are dependent on the political settlement. To say the least, it is vague and woolly. Trade deals may take at least 5 years to finalise.
Businesses that neither import nor export won't be seriously affected. Provided that they don't employ any EU staff.
It's hard to see how leaving the EU is going to be any better than what we have already. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:36 - Dec 12 with 2005 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:29 - Dec 12 by derbyhoop |
Except, as a member of the EU, you cannot do your own trade deals. Fair enough, as UK only trade deals could compromise the Single Market and the Customs Union.
What May's deal does is provide a Withdrawal Agreement, covering the Financial Settlement, Citizens Rights (mostly) and the Irish border. Thats all. Future trade deals are dependent on the political settlement. To say the least, it is vague and woolly. Trade deals may take at least 5 years to finalise.
Businesses that neither import nor export won't be seriously affected. Provided that they don't employ any EU staff.
It's hard to see how leaving the EU is going to be any better than what we have already. |
Which takes you back to my previous post about being held by the Gonads. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:46 - Dec 12 with 1984 views | Juzzie |
May: “I will listen to colleagues who voted against me”
I thought it was a secret ballot? | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:56 - Dec 12 with 1963 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:40 - Dec 12 by daveB |
A General Election though is voting your MP in for the next 4 years so it's a fixed term and of course you do it again every 4 years. The Referendum was supposed to be a one off not a we'll do it again in 2 years if it goes wrong vote |
I can't find any reference anywhere that tells me a Referendum has to be a one off. And although General Elections are supposed to give us a 4 year fixed term Parliament, of course there were only two years between the last two GEs. Because things changed in the intervening two years.
Well, people's understanding of leaving the EU and what it entails has certainly changed in the last two years. So if it's ok to hold an unscheduled General Election so that one politician can try and gain a political advantage, why should it be any less reasonable to have an unscheduled Referendum on a decision that will determine the fate of the UK for decades to come? |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:10 - Dec 12 with 1931 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:49 - Dec 12 by derbyhoop |
Not at all. It's a reflection of 45 years of legislation, 13% arising from EU laws, where the UK has been a major player. Some of those rules are regulated by EU bodies, E.g. EMA, EBA, EASA, Euratom, etc.
A no deal means everything stops. As per Art 50, PARA 3, which states "All treaties shall cease to apply". We would need to replace all those regulations and create replacement bodies - just to stand still.
As Clive says "no deal" will be chaos. For months, possibly years. |
Years is optimistic tbh.
I agree that most people who voted leave did so envisaging a clean break more than a fudge; and I can see the appeal of leaving and then negotiating new deals from scratch rather than keeping existing membership privileges but then living in fear of making new legislation that may not be in line with the rules.
I also understand that people vote according to their sense of identity before economic concerns. I feel British and European (i've been in Italy, France and Switzerland for 15 years now) but others may not and if they make up the majority then so be it, why stick around.
But a no-deal Britain will NOT be in a good position to make favourable deals. It's all very well to dream of a low-regulation tax haven like the Rees Moggites or an anti-globalist people's state, but if you can't feed your population, ensure they have fuel and make their medicine, you are going to be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. It doesn't help if you're running a big debt and you're trapped in a zero-interest economy.
Nobody knows what is going to happen tomorrow let alone next year, but in my mind there is a real possibility of a properly deep and enduring shitstorm waiting for you all. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:10 - Dec 12 with 1926 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:07 - Dec 12 by QPR_Jim |
Well she tried to leave it to David Davis and he failed, not as easy as he thought as it turns out. The conservatives are an absolute mess. |
But that is the point nobody believes David Davis and Dominic Raab were in control it was Olly Robbins all the time | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:13 - Dec 12 with 1914 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:56 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
I can't find any reference anywhere that tells me a Referendum has to be a one off. And although General Elections are supposed to give us a 4 year fixed term Parliament, of course there were only two years between the last two GEs. Because things changed in the intervening two years.
Well, people's understanding of leaving the EU and what it entails has certainly changed in the last two years. So if it's ok to hold an unscheduled General Election so that one politician can try and gain a political advantage, why should it be any less reasonable to have an unscheduled Referendum on a decision that will determine the fate of the UK for decades to come? |
It's 5 years | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:17 - Dec 12 with 1903 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:56 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
I can't find any reference anywhere that tells me a Referendum has to be a one off. And although General Elections are supposed to give us a 4 year fixed term Parliament, of course there were only two years between the last two GEs. Because things changed in the intervening two years.
Well, people's understanding of leaving the EU and what it entails has certainly changed in the last two years. So if it's ok to hold an unscheduled General Election so that one politician can try and gain a political advantage, why should it be any less reasonable to have an unscheduled Referendum on a decision that will determine the fate of the UK for decades to come? |
What would be your view if a second referendum gave a 52 48 vote in favour of leaving. Would you campaign for a third referendum. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:19 - Dec 12 with 1900 views | colinallcars |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:13 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
It's 5 years |
If it's 5 years why was May able to call for an election last time ? |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:26 - Dec 12 with 1886 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:29 - Dec 12 by derbyhoop |
Except, as a member of the EU, you cannot do your own trade deals. Fair enough, as UK only trade deals could compromise the Single Market and the Customs Union.
What May's deal does is provide a Withdrawal Agreement, covering the Financial Settlement, Citizens Rights (mostly) and the Irish border. Thats all. Future trade deals are dependent on the political settlement. To say the least, it is vague and woolly. Trade deals may take at least 5 years to finalise.
Businesses that neither import nor export won't be seriously affected. Provided that they don't employ any EU staff.
It's hard to see how leaving the EU is going to be any better than what we have already. |
Don't you think any democratic organisation would allow a member to leave smoothly having given a notice. Make it two years in which the the departing member can make external deals even with the EU itself ready to sign when the notice time is up. You cannot plan to leave the EU because their rules do not allow it. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:27 - Dec 12 with 1886 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:01 - Dec 12 by QPR_Jim |
But wouldn't defining what the leave option looks like make it a different vote?
In the first vote people were allowed to believe leave could be whatever they wanted. Now we know what it is, it's not a betrayal to ask if that's what they wanted because by all accounts Mays deal isn't what a lot of leave voters wanted. |
It would still be the same vote again as in leave or remain just with more information. I'm not sure the result would be hugely different, possibly 52/48 for remain this time but another vote wouldn't end the split we have in this country
We've got the two main parties both saying they are committed to leaving, Ok we know thats not true as Labour want a second vote and to remain but taking them at their word if they both want to leave then why add remain to a second vote, it wouldn't make any sense. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:29 - Dec 12 with 1872 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:19 - Dec 12 by colinallcars |
If it's 5 years why was May able to call for an election last time ? |
Because there is regulations to allow it. The Fixed Term Parliaments act provides for early general elections if either the House of Commons votes for an early general election or following the failure of the House to agree a vote of confidence in a new government within 14 days of a vote of no confidence in the government holding office. Otherwise it is 5 years from the previous general election hence why if the above is not enacted the next general election will be in 2022 [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 22:31]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:31 - Dec 12 with 1868 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:56 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
I can't find any reference anywhere that tells me a Referendum has to be a one off. And although General Elections are supposed to give us a 4 year fixed term Parliament, of course there were only two years between the last two GEs. Because things changed in the intervening two years.
Well, people's understanding of leaving the EU and what it entails has certainly changed in the last two years. So if it's ok to hold an unscheduled General Election so that one politician can try and gain a political advantage, why should it be any less reasonable to have an unscheduled Referendum on a decision that will determine the fate of the UK for decades to come? |
but would it affect us for decades? If we have a second vote and end up remaining whose to say we won't have another vote in 2 years after we see how that goes.
The original vote was do you want to leave or not, what the deal looks like wasn't on that ballot paper so going back and saying are you sure doesn't seem right.
What should have happened was the leave side won so parliament respects that, all parties work together to get the best outcome for this country, instead they have shown themselves to be only interested in themselves and their own viewpoint and have come back with something no one seems to want. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:34 - Dec 12 with 1862 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:51 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
Not quite true were the EU to choose to stay there is nothing we can do. If the backstop does not benefit either side surely it would have been the first thing sorted out. The fact it was not suggest the EU saw it as a bargaining point and good luck to them. They were negotiating for what they wanted with people who in reality wanted the same thing [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:51]
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That is true but I'm not sure them saying no you can't go and keeping us locked in does them any favours long term. Far more intelligent people than me would explain it better but that to me would sound like a tw atish move | | | |
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