| This is Brexit on 11:59 - Nov 18 with 1097 views | saint901 |
In my personal view, once Cameron had failed to renegotiate the terms under which the UK could remain in the EU (an embarrassing up cock of monumental proportions), the Little Englanders in the Tory party had free rein to use every dirty trick in the book.
We saw the immigration card played, we saw the EU Court of Justice being presented as the imposition of foreign laws, we saw the threat of an EU diplomatic team speaking for the UK. Many of these demons were not real or were in fact much lower a threat than they were.
The Leave campaign however exaggerated them and also made the issues simple. Save money and fund the NHS - which was never going to happen - is a good example.
The Remain campaign struggled against that simple message and (again in my opinion) hardly got out of the blocks in terms of getting its message over.
It turned into mighty Saints of the Prem vs Salisbury City who in the end put up a fight and only lost to a disputed penalty in extra time.
The more interested or politically aware person sought truth in both sides and weighed up the pros and cons. Sadly politics in this country has been shorn of trust and veracity by successive generations of MPs abusing their position and the vast majority of voters int he UK are totally turned off politics and its consequences. Many went with whatever paper they read, many voted along Party lines (and what was Labour's position again?) and clearly many voted because Boris looked like a lovely man (ignoring the fact that he was knifing all his Party colleagues in the back).
So we had the simple message of an exciting future delivered by a Churchill wannabe vs the same old, same old.
Many voters then and in the subsequent GE's have demonstrated that they will be contrary because they can or because they like personality politics rather than policy.
That Remain got as close as it did was an achievement.
Simple messages don't allow for "we'll leave but we'll keep this bit and that bit". Also the negotiations became poisoned by both EU and UK and in the end it was out or in.
Frankly appalling politics from all sides in the equation leaving voters with little or no choice. |  | |  |
| This is Brexit on 12:11 - Nov 18 with 1089 views | Bazza |
| This is Brexit on 11:05 - Nov 18 by Sadoldgit |
Do you think that Brexiteers would have just gotten over it Bazza? Farage himself said that he would have continued to campaign to leave it he had lost. This isn’t going away as long as half the country want to be part of the EU. |
Fair point, as long as remainers don’t obstruct the enactment of the democratic vote. I spent many years upset that we didn’t get the vote on the Lisbon Treaty that Blair promised, especially as I voted for him! But I just accepted it. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 16:07 - Nov 18 with 1035 views | Berber |
| This is Brexit on 11:05 - Nov 18 by Sadoldgit |
Do you think that Brexiteers would have just gotten over it Bazza? Farage himself said that he would have continued to campaign to leave it he had lost. This isn’t going away as long as half the country want to be part of the EU. |
A good point, because the opposite sides are so very polarised. There will always be a large body of pro EEC voters. The big disadvantage Remainers will have is the ample bad faith the EU has been showing since Brexit, over NI, customs process and documentation, French fishing tantrums etc that can be held up as undeniable fact that we are NOT all one big happy family of nations. The statements coming out of France about punishing the UK will not go away either. Any attempt to renegotiate will likely have penal clauses a la de Gaulle and Macron think.
Additionally, it will have to be shown that the EEC are demonstrably better off than the UK in the coming decade, and that the UK would benefit accordingly. The remain campaign could not muster sufficient clear evidence last time, and people will be a lot more sceptical about economic projections from either side in future.
Germany, France Spain and Italy miscalculated mightily with their treatment of Cameron and May, and very nearly pulled it off. However, that miscalculation has probably put the federalist cause back a decade or more. I don't think any future referendum will support rejoining unless there is an existential crisis threatening the nation, and even then, I'm not sure the pr EEC crew would be able to swing it. It remains to be seen how any of the other "exit" minded nations respond in the meantime. If Germany cannot bank role the rest it is unlikely that they can keep buying off the minnows. France certainly won't take on that role. |  |
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| This is Brexit on 17:26 - Nov 18 with 1001 views | saint68 |
| This is Brexit on 16:07 - Nov 18 by Berber |
A good point, because the opposite sides are so very polarised. There will always be a large body of pro EEC voters. The big disadvantage Remainers will have is the ample bad faith the EU has been showing since Brexit, over NI, customs process and documentation, French fishing tantrums etc that can be held up as undeniable fact that we are NOT all one big happy family of nations. The statements coming out of France about punishing the UK will not go away either. Any attempt to renegotiate will likely have penal clauses a la de Gaulle and Macron think.
Additionally, it will have to be shown that the EEC are demonstrably better off than the UK in the coming decade, and that the UK would benefit accordingly. The remain campaign could not muster sufficient clear evidence last time, and people will be a lot more sceptical about economic projections from either side in future.
Germany, France Spain and Italy miscalculated mightily with their treatment of Cameron and May, and very nearly pulled it off. However, that miscalculation has probably put the federalist cause back a decade or more. I don't think any future referendum will support rejoining unless there is an existential crisis threatening the nation, and even then, I'm not sure the pr EEC crew would be able to swing it. It remains to be seen how any of the other "exit" minded nations respond in the meantime. If Germany cannot bank role the rest it is unlikely that they can keep buying off the minnows. France certainly won't take on that role. |
A very fair and concise summary Sir, can't disagree with any of the views you forward.
The EU will dissolve when the Germans finally accept the price isnt worth paying...which is ironic in itself. | |
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| This is Brexit on 09:13 - Nov 19 with 935 views | saint901 |
| This is Brexit on 17:26 - Nov 18 by saint68 |
A very fair and concise summary Sir, can't disagree with any of the views you forward.
The EU will dissolve when the Germans finally accept the price isnt worth paying...which is ironic in itself. |
The EU will not dissolve any time soon - certainly not in my lifetime nor probably my children's.
Aside from the trade and economic benefits arising to members and non members who have a suitable agreement, the US in particular wants the unified political front to Russia. They also see the EU as a supporter in their trade war with China.
Trump was too stupid/arrogant/cheap (delete as appropriate) to support NATO which in any event exists only at the gift of the EU. Nonetheless a military orgnaisation backed by a political and economic union will make Russia and China think twice.
If anything I can see that federalism in the EU will be the next big project and that will need a centre around which to coalesce and that is likely to be the Germany/France alignment. Their reward will be a bigger slice of the benefits.
The UK will be excluded and will be reliant upon its own special relationship with the US. Given the polarising of opinions in the US, that is going to be a rocky road.
I see no path to the UK rejoining the EU at least until the present generation of Tory politicians have been sent to the long grass of retirement and no longer have influence. 30 years perhaps as a minimum. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 12:36 - Nov 19 with 911 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 09:13 - Nov 19 by saint901 |
The EU will not dissolve any time soon - certainly not in my lifetime nor probably my children's.
Aside from the trade and economic benefits arising to members and non members who have a suitable agreement, the US in particular wants the unified political front to Russia. They also see the EU as a supporter in their trade war with China.
Trump was too stupid/arrogant/cheap (delete as appropriate) to support NATO which in any event exists only at the gift of the EU. Nonetheless a military orgnaisation backed by a political and economic union will make Russia and China think twice.
If anything I can see that federalism in the EU will be the next big project and that will need a centre around which to coalesce and that is likely to be the Germany/France alignment. Their reward will be a bigger slice of the benefits.
The UK will be excluded and will be reliant upon its own special relationship with the US. Given the polarising of opinions in the US, that is going to be a rocky road.
I see no path to the UK rejoining the EU at least until the present generation of Tory politicians have been sent to the long grass of retirement and no longer have influence. 30 years perhaps as a minimum. |
Why would they want the UK back?
A complete and utter pain in the arris and soon to be an irrelevance. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 12:38 - Nov 19 with 908 views | Bison |
| This is Brexit on 12:36 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Why would they want the UK back?
A complete and utter pain in the arris and soon to be an irrelevance. |
you must hate living in a country you despise. |  |
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| This is Brexit on 13:03 - Nov 19 with 892 views | 1885_SFC |
| This is Brexit on 12:36 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Why would they want the UK back?
A complete and utter pain in the arris and soon to be an irrelevance. |
Jesus H Christ... |  |
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| This is Brexit on 14:27 - Nov 19 with 872 views | saint901 |
| This is Brexit on 12:36 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Why would they want the UK back?
A complete and utter pain in the arris and soon to be an irrelevance. |
Any more disruptive than Greece and its broken economy caused by its inability to tax its own citizens fairly or consistently?
More disruptive than Italy which seem to have an election every 6 months?
More disruptive than Spain with its issues in Catalonia?
I do find it disappointing that you consider the UK to be "an irrelevance". Makes me wonder whey you are still here (perhaps you're not?) | | | |
| This is Brexit on 16:56 - Nov 19 with 824 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 14:27 - Nov 19 by saint901 |
Any more disruptive than Greece and its broken economy caused by its inability to tax its own citizens fairly or consistently?
More disruptive than Italy which seem to have an election every 6 months?
More disruptive than Spain with its issues in Catalonia?
I do find it disappointing that you consider the UK to be "an irrelevance". Makes me wonder whey you are still here (perhaps you're not?) |
kernow doesn't think the UK "an irrelevance" he's referring to the EU.
Don't think that leaving the EU is patriotic and wanting to remain unpatriotic. |  | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:26 - Nov 19 with 798 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 12:38 - Nov 19 by Bison |
you must hate living in a country you despise. |
We've had a little chat like this once before Bison.
You come across as a decent lad but don't put words in my mouth, fukk off !
I despise the shower of sheite that are in charge and leading the country I love down the sh1tter. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:29 - Nov 19 with 795 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 13:03 - Nov 19 by 1885_SFC |
Jesus H Christ... |
Yep . Reckon it will take more than the second coming to sort out this clusterfukk. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:37 - Nov 19 with 788 views | grumpy |
| This is Brexit on 18:29 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Yep . Reckon it will take more than the second coming to sort out this clusterfukk. |
I feel your pain,Kernow. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Nov 19 with 778 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 14:27 - Nov 19 by saint901 |
Any more disruptive than Greece and its broken economy caused by its inability to tax its own citizens fairly or consistently?
More disruptive than Italy which seem to have an election every 6 months?
More disruptive than Spain with its issues in Catalonia?
I do find it disappointing that you consider the UK to be "an irrelevance". Makes me wonder whey you are still here (perhaps you're not?) |
Ex pat in Europe and from here it looks like declining influence will eventually become irrelevance, culturally, economically, financially, linguistically and politically. I fully expect an increase in the deployment of the military in domestic affairs and policy.
I don't buy into meaningless slogans such as "global Britain". The empire is dead but some folk haven't realized yet. Gun boats to far away trouble spots won't end well as history demonstrates.
This is the point that I failed to make. | | | |
| This is Brexit on 19:22 - Nov 19 with 769 views | saint68 |
| This is Brexit on 18:56 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Ex pat in Europe and from here it looks like declining influence will eventually become irrelevance, culturally, economically, financially, linguistically and politically. I fully expect an increase in the deployment of the military in domestic affairs and policy.
I don't buy into meaningless slogans such as "global Britain". The empire is dead but some folk haven't realized yet. Gun boats to far away trouble spots won't end well as history demonstrates.
This is the point that I failed to make. |
Spanish government and finance houses see the UK as a safe and prosperous haven for capital flow as recently as last week...Paris and Dusseldorf were desperate to capitalise on Brexit .it hasn't happened bud...Spain is so heavily dependent on UK tourism and property purchases that the region of Valencia/Alicante is seeking to overturn/ignore the ridiculous petty 90/180 day rule implemented from the sad/angry idiots that created Brexit..the EU. | |
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| This is Brexit (n/t) on 19:45 - Nov 19 with 762 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 19:22 - Nov 19 by saint68 |
Spanish government and finance houses see the UK as a safe and prosperous haven for capital flow as recently as last week...Paris and Dusseldorf were desperate to capitalise on Brexit .it hasn't happened bud...Spain is so heavily dependent on UK tourism and property purchases that the region of Valencia/Alicante is seeking to overturn/ignore the ridiculous petty 90/180 day rule implemented from the sad/angry idiots that created Brexit..the EU. |
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| This is Brexit (n/t) on 19:45 - Nov 19 with 762 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 19:22 - Nov 19 by saint68 |
Spanish government and finance houses see the UK as a safe and prosperous haven for capital flow as recently as last week...Paris and Dusseldorf were desperate to capitalise on Brexit .it hasn't happened bud...Spain is so heavily dependent on UK tourism and property purchases that the region of Valencia/Alicante is seeking to overturn/ignore the ridiculous petty 90/180 day rule implemented from the sad/angry idiots that created Brexit..the EU. |
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| This is Brexit (n/t) on 19:45 - Nov 19 with 762 views | kernow |
| This is Brexit on 19:22 - Nov 19 by saint68 |
Spanish government and finance houses see the UK as a safe and prosperous haven for capital flow as recently as last week...Paris and Dusseldorf were desperate to capitalise on Brexit .it hasn't happened bud...Spain is so heavily dependent on UK tourism and property purchases that the region of Valencia/Alicante is seeking to overturn/ignore the ridiculous petty 90/180 day rule implemented from the sad/angry idiots that created Brexit..the EU. |
Would be delighted to be wrong about this.
The Spanish exiles I've met, counted on one hand to be fair, have sold up. [Post edited 19 Nov 2021 19:48]
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| This is Brexit (n/t) on 20:22 - Nov 19 with 736 views | saint68 |
| This is Brexit (n/t) on 19:45 - Nov 19 by kernow |
Would be delighted to be wrong about this.
The Spanish exiles I've met, counted on one hand to be fair, have sold up. [Post edited 19 Nov 2021 19:48]
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And I can understand the stampede to repatriate in the ill-conceived Notion of access to fantastic free health care..well thats absolutely knackered now..you've more chance of seeing Hayleys comet than seeing a GP in the UK nowadays mate. | |
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