| London tower block on fire on 23:31 - Jun 15 with 2906 views | the_oracle |
Damning comment tonight on Newsnight from the lawyer who helped residents on the Lakanal House fire. She asked why has Theresa May ordered a Public Enquiry in to the Grenfell fire? She said an inquest should take place, this allows residents to raise questions, have their own experts in front of a jury who can then make recommendations. A public enquiry does not allow this, its is government led and government appointed.The residents cannot ask anything. There cannot be both. The lawyer asked what has May got to hide? |  | |  |
| London tower block on fire on 23:39 - Jun 15 with 2896 views | londonlisa2001 |
| London tower block on fire on 22:07 - Jun 15 by Darran |
Would that have made any difference in this situation Paul? |
No. it only applied to private landlords, not public authorities. Corbyn didn't vote by the way.
The politicising has become quite sickening to be honest. There are several blocks with exactly this cladding throughout London. Three alone in Camden which is, and always has been, apart from a few years when the LibDems took control, a Labour council. The MP for the area with the towers is Keir Starmer. For anyone to pretend this has happened because Kensington & Chelsea is a conservative council is just naive.
There are undoubtedly months of investigation. An independent (emphasis on independent) enquiry is essential. There have been horrible mistakes made. Cuts are almost certainly part of this, but this block had a £10m refit, which is a lot of money, and it's possible that it's not the amount, but the way it's been spent that is in question. We simply don't know,
The whole legislation around building and fire regulations needs to be looked at. And the whole inspection process as well. And people like Richard Littlejohn that for years have taken the p*ss out of Health & Safety can get stuffed. And ALL local authorities, conservative, Labour and independent need to look at themselves. Do any of them really care about people that have less of a voice because they are poor and probably don't vote in huge numbers.
One of the first things to look at is the way that these people are being housed like cattle. | | | |
| London tower block on fire on 23:42 - Jun 15 with 2888 views | londonlisa2001 |
| London tower block on fire on 23:14 - Jun 15 by Swanzay |
Theresa May visiting Grenfell Tower today in a closed political environment is disgusting, no engagement with the people, again! |
Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous. What the absolute hell are they playing at. | | | |
| London tower block on fire on 23:44 - Jun 15 with 2884 views | Darran |
| London tower block on fire on 23:39 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001 |
No. it only applied to private landlords, not public authorities. Corbyn didn't vote by the way.
The politicising has become quite sickening to be honest. There are several blocks with exactly this cladding throughout London. Three alone in Camden which is, and always has been, apart from a few years when the LibDems took control, a Labour council. The MP for the area with the towers is Keir Starmer. For anyone to pretend this has happened because Kensington & Chelsea is a conservative council is just naive.
There are undoubtedly months of investigation. An independent (emphasis on independent) enquiry is essential. There have been horrible mistakes made. Cuts are almost certainly part of this, but this block had a £10m refit, which is a lot of money, and it's possible that it's not the amount, but the way it's been spent that is in question. We simply don't know,
The whole legislation around building and fire regulations needs to be looked at. And the whole inspection process as well. And people like Richard Littlejohn that for years have taken the p*ss out of Health & Safety can get stuffed. And ALL local authorities, conservative, Labour and independent need to look at themselves. Do any of them really care about people that have less of a voice because they are poor and probably don't vote in huge numbers.
One of the first things to look at is the way that these people are being housed like cattle. |
Great post Lis very well said.
It's so sad to see the shit all over social media from people that should know better. |  |
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| London tower block on fire on 23:45 - Jun 15 with 2882 views | Darran |
| London tower block on fire on 23:17 - Jun 15 by londonlisa2001 |
Loftus Road has been opened as a hub for collections. Staff have been made available to co-ordinate the efforts to sort and distribute. The ground and stadium areas have been made available for displaced residents to have somewhere to stay.
Fernandez has told all staff to prioritise the relief efforts. They've used the main club social media accounts to help direct efforts and help give out information,
Fulham have also been heavily involved. |
Good stuff. | |
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| London tower block on fire on 23:50 - Jun 15 with 2870 views | Darran |
I've just seen the list of Tory MPs that voted against this law that Paul mentioned earlier and I don't see Theresa Mays name on it.
Did she vote for it or did she not vote? | |
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| London tower block on fire on 23:55 - Jun 15 with 2864 views | Kerouac |
Is there no depth the Labour party under Corbyn won't sink too? |  |
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| London tower block on fire on 23:58 - Jun 15 with 2864 views | Kerouac |
| London tower block on fire on 21:32 - Jun 15 by Dr_Winston |
It's amazing how many people have become experts on both housing law and health & safety over the last 24 hours.
Here's an idea. How about we let the professionals work out what happened and then see what the inquest reports before attempting to make tedious f*cking political capital out of the death of dozens of people? |
Exactly. | |
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| London tower block on fire on 00:12 - Jun 16 with 2846 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 20:58 - Jun 15 by Lohengrin |
"This is probably the blackest incident in the history of this country."
Don't think for one second I'm down-playing either the scale or horror of the fire, Bryn, but my youngest daughter said something similar to me earlier and I mentioned the Bethnal Green station disaster to her. She didn't know what I was talking about and that struck me as quite bizarre that it should have virtually slipped from folk-memory, out of the public consciousness within a couple of generations.
In March of 1943 some 173 people were crushed to death on the stairway leading to the underground at Bethnal Green station. Please tell me somebody else knows what I'm talking about? |
I know we aren't trying to compete here but to think that people were in their flats knowing they were either going to be burned to death or asphyxiated within an hour must have been truly horrifying .
When I say blackest I'm alluding to the context and circumstances that have all come together to make this abomination possible.
No fire alarms, no sprinklers, access and egress blocked, fire escape blocked by cars allegedly, a legally flammable outer casing of the building allegedly put there because the richer people in the penthouses form the road didn't like the look of Grenfell tower.
Watching firefighters risk their lives when there was no way on earth apart from a heavy downpour of rain that they were going to be able to save those terrified men, women and little children. But they heroically carried on.
I'm assuming that in 124 flats there were quite a lot of families sleeping. That could be as many as 500 plus people. I hope it's nowhere near that number but I think we're in for a shock unfortunately.
I can't remember being more horrified watching a news item . Not even 9/11. |  |
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| London tower block on fire on 00:23 - Jun 16 with 2834 views | londonlisa2001 |
| London tower block on fire on 00:12 - Jun 16 by Brynmill_Jack |
I know we aren't trying to compete here but to think that people were in their flats knowing they were either going to be burned to death or asphyxiated within an hour must have been truly horrifying .
When I say blackest I'm alluding to the context and circumstances that have all come together to make this abomination possible.
No fire alarms, no sprinklers, access and egress blocked, fire escape blocked by cars allegedly, a legally flammable outer casing of the building allegedly put there because the richer people in the penthouses form the road didn't like the look of Grenfell tower.
Watching firefighters risk their lives when there was no way on earth apart from a heavy downpour of rain that they were going to be able to save those terrified men, women and little children. But they heroically carried on.
I'm assuming that in 124 flats there were quite a lot of families sleeping. That could be as many as 500 plus people. I hope it's nowhere near that number but I think we're in for a shock unfortunately.
I can't remember being more horrified watching a news item . Not even 9/11. |
I agree with pretty much everything you've said brynnie, apart from one bit.
The 'rich people in their penthouses' didn't ask for the cladding. The cladding is in use throughout London. It's become a narrative, but it's an unfair narrative. The cladding was used for insulation purposes and as a water resistant material that supposedly elongates the life of the buildings.
The question is not the use of cladding, but the nature of the cladding that was used. It may turn out that it met all standards, in which case, it's the standards that are shocking not the decision of people to use it if they assumed the cladding was safe. I know that if I get work done and am told by inspectors the work meets building and fire regs I believe that it's safe,
Now if it's shown that it didn't meet regs, we need to know why, and who authorised it, or lied about it. And if anyone did lie, or authorise its use despite it being non compliant, then it's a potential case of corporate manslaughter. But 'rich people' weren't saying to anybody to use cladding that caused this, if indeed it did. | | | |
| London tower block on fire on 00:29 - Jun 16 with 2819 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 21:32 - Jun 15 by Dr_Winston |
It's amazing how many people have become experts on both housing law and health & safety over the last 24 hours.
Here's an idea. How about we let the professionals work out what happened and then see what the inquest reports before attempting to make tedious f*cking political capital out of the death of dozens of people? |
Well I've been watching the news and the residents themselves were saying that the cladding was going up like straw.
There were building and fire experts on the news saying that this had happened before but with a much smaller death toll. I think they mentioned Glasgow.
I don't think it's being overtly political to discuss what people believe to have been the critical element is this dreadful saga. Especially when members of the residents association are insisting that they've been raising concerns over this refurbishment during the two years of it being completed
But true enough , there is an inquiry on its way. I'm sure all will come out then. | |
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| London tower block on fire on 00:44 - Jun 16 with 2804 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 00:23 - Jun 16 by londonlisa2001 |
I agree with pretty much everything you've said brynnie, apart from one bit.
The 'rich people in their penthouses' didn't ask for the cladding. The cladding is in use throughout London. It's become a narrative, but it's an unfair narrative. The cladding was used for insulation purposes and as a water resistant material that supposedly elongates the life of the buildings.
The question is not the use of cladding, but the nature of the cladding that was used. It may turn out that it met all standards, in which case, it's the standards that are shocking not the decision of people to use it if they assumed the cladding was safe. I know that if I get work done and am told by inspectors the work meets building and fire regs I believe that it's safe,
Now if it's shown that it didn't meet regs, we need to know why, and who authorised it, or lied about it. And if anyone did lie, or authorise its use despite it being non compliant, then it's a potential case of corporate manslaughter. But 'rich people' weren't saying to anybody to use cladding that caused this, if indeed it did. |
I was just relaying what I'd heard over the media during the course of the day. Possibly from some people with an axe to grind with their better off neighbours I don't know.
They certainly used authorised material for the cladding or curtain walling but it was flammable. Apparently from what I heard on the news it is illegal to use this material in the fabric of the building but NOT for the cladding.
Which is a bit bonkers as it covers the whole building . So the regulations are possibly wrong???
Anyway, the main point as you say is true and that's the horrific loss of life. Sickeningly dreadful . | |
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| London tower block on fire on 00:56 - Jun 16 with 2794 views | londonlisa2001 |
| London tower block on fire on 00:44 - Jun 16 by Brynmill_Jack |
I was just relaying what I'd heard over the media during the course of the day. Possibly from some people with an axe to grind with their better off neighbours I don't know.
They certainly used authorised material for the cladding or curtain walling but it was flammable. Apparently from what I heard on the news it is illegal to use this material in the fabric of the building but NOT for the cladding.
Which is a bit bonkers as it covers the whole building . So the regulations are possibly wrong???
Anyway, the main point as you say is true and that's the horrific loss of life. Sickeningly dreadful . |
I think that the request for planning stated that the outward appearance was a benefit to the area.
That's undoubtedly true. But the area includes all the other residences, many of which are the other parts of the estate. Improving the look of the large London estates has been something that everyone has wanted, not least the residents.
BUT, how they did that is obviously crucial. And ignoring the repeated warnings of the residents association is shocking. Not only on this issue, but on all of them.
The residents are quite understandably angry at everything and everyone, and so they should be.
But it's really important that we find out what happened and make sure it can't happen again. And take action as necessary. | | | |
| London tower block on fire on 01:17 - Jun 16 with 2786 views | Humpty |
I'm in no way trying to make a political point at all. I'm sure blame can be rightfully pointed in lots of directions.
I know nothing about building tower blocks or building regulations, but it seems incredible to me that in Britain, in 2017, a massive structure that homes 500-600 people can be covered in an inflammable material. Material which, if ignited, will spread fire all over the surface of the building in a very short space of time. Thus rendering all other fire prevention methods useless. I am speaking from a position of total ignorance admittedly, but to me it just seems incredible if that is allowed in the capital city of a first world country. I just know what I saw happen Tuesday night and a fire in one flat should not have resulted in what I saw with my own eyes. The whole building going up in a very short space of time.
People will often, usually even, go for the cheapest option that stays within the law. It's up to the lawmakers to ensure these options still ensure safety.
In this laymans eyes, something is wrong in what we allow to be done. |  | | |
| London tower block on fire on 01:45 - Jun 16 with 2765 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 00:56 - Jun 16 by londonlisa2001 |
I think that the request for planning stated that the outward appearance was a benefit to the area.
That's undoubtedly true. But the area includes all the other residences, many of which are the other parts of the estate. Improving the look of the large London estates has been something that everyone has wanted, not least the residents.
BUT, how they did that is obviously crucial. And ignoring the repeated warnings of the residents association is shocking. Not only on this issue, but on all of them.
The residents are quite understandably angry at everything and everyone, and so they should be.
But it's really important that we find out what happened and make sure it can't happen again. And take action as necessary. |
The way that Theresa May announced that there should "be a public inquiry" as if it was a new departure when maybe upwards of 200 people lay dead in that charred building flumoxed me. She then gave the "lessons must be learned " throwaway line.
Really? Seriously??
No sh*t Sherlock | |
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| London tower block on fire on 07:55 - Jun 16 with 2706 views | epaul |
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| The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though |
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| London tower block on fire on 08:05 - Jun 16 with 2690 views | trampie |
I heard that any new or converted house, flat etc in Wales must be built with a sprinkler system but that apparently is not the case in England. |  |
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| London tower block on fire on 08:27 - Jun 16 with 2673 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 08:05 - Jun 16 by trampie |
I heard that any new or converted house, flat etc in Wales must be built with a sprinkler system but that apparently is not the case in England. |
They are refurbishing sketty park flats at the moment but I suspect the law is the same i.e. unless it's a new build I don't think sprinklers are obligatory .
But sprinklers , as much as they would have helped giving people a little more time to escape wouldn't have saved the building. Prevention is better than cure. If that exact same circumstance occurred and there was either cladding that was inflammable or no cladding at all only one flat would have been affected and therefore maybe just an injury to that flats occupants, possibly no deaths at all.
If what Paul have quoted there is correct there are going to be very serious repercussions . Only £5000 pounds? Surely this can't be right. I'm struggling with that right now. That must be a mistake ??? | |
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| London tower block on fire on 08:39 - Jun 16 with 2658 views | WarwickHunt |
| London tower block on fire on 08:27 - Jun 16 by Brynmill_Jack |
They are refurbishing sketty park flats at the moment but I suspect the law is the same i.e. unless it's a new build I don't think sprinklers are obligatory .
But sprinklers , as much as they would have helped giving people a little more time to escape wouldn't have saved the building. Prevention is better than cure. If that exact same circumstance occurred and there was either cladding that was inflammable or no cladding at all only one flat would have been affected and therefore maybe just an injury to that flats occupants, possibly no deaths at all.
If what Paul have quoted there is correct there are going to be very serious repercussions . Only £5000 pounds? Surely this can't be right. I'm struggling with that right now. That must be a mistake ??? |
Strange that Hazel Court flats were demolished a few years ago and Clyne Court are now being refurbished.
Built at the same time in the 60s. |  | | |
| London tower block on fire on 08:47 - Jun 16 with 2650 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| London tower block on fire on 08:39 - Jun 16 by WarwickHunt |
Strange that Hazel Court flats were demolished a few years ago and Clyne Court are now being refurbished.
Built at the same time in the 60s. |
Perhaps the council realized they had a capacity issue. They're doing the same with Dyffaty | |
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| London tower block on fire on 08:50 - Jun 16 with 2644 views | trampie |
| London tower block on fire on 08:27 - Jun 16 by Brynmill_Jack |
They are refurbishing sketty park flats at the moment but I suspect the law is the same i.e. unless it's a new build I don't think sprinklers are obligatory .
But sprinklers , as much as they would have helped giving people a little more time to escape wouldn't have saved the building. Prevention is better than cure. If that exact same circumstance occurred and there was either cladding that was inflammable or no cladding at all only one flat would have been affected and therefore maybe just an injury to that flats occupants, possibly no deaths at all.
If what Paul have quoted there is correct there are going to be very serious repercussions . Only £5000 pounds? Surely this can't be right. I'm struggling with that right now. That must be a mistake ??? |
Converted as well as new butt, the Welsh are said to be the only ones in the World to have such regulations, England is a different matter altogether. | |
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| London tower block on fire on 09:13 - Jun 16 with 2625 views | waynekerr55 |
| London tower block on fire on 08:05 - Jun 16 by trampie |
I heard that any new or converted house, flat etc in Wales must be built with a sprinkler system but that apparently is not the case in England. |
This is true |  |
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| London tower block on fire on 09:16 - Jun 16 with 2623 views | Darran |
| London tower block on fire on 23:50 - Jun 15 by Darran |
I've just seen the list of Tory MPs that voted against this law that Paul mentioned earlier and I don't see Theresa Mays name on it.
Did she vote for it or did she not vote? |
Anyone know the answer? | |
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| London tower block on fire on 09:18 - Jun 16 with 2622 views | majorraglan |
What's happened is truly shocking. There's lots of articles starting to appear about the suitability of some of the materials used in the refurbishment, one I have just read states the cladding used is flammable and that the US have prohibited its use on buildings over 40ft high and that our Building Regs are out of date.
I hope that there is a full investigation which is open and transparent and that nobody is able to use their position or associations to avoid being held to account. | | | |
| London tower block on fire on 09:37 - Jun 16 with 2600 views | trampie |
| London tower block on fire on 09:13 - Jun 16 by waynekerr55 |
This is true |
There are problems with living in capitalist countries as they often put profit first.
The more devolution the Welsh can get the better. | |
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