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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:46 - Jun 7 by yescomeon
The Poland bit. Replace Poland with Mexico.
I wish our government would be able to release figures on how much money goes to EU migrants in the form of benefits to put this whole argument to bed. Its such a red herring (I can't back this up so its purely my opinion), and to think the country might vote ourselves out of our single biggest market off the back such a small figure apparently being frittered away on a small handful who might be exploiting the system. I've seen the odd Romanian immigrants sleeping homeless around train stations and the parks, so its clearly not that easy to rip off the benefit system.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:06 - Jun 7 with 1912 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:28 - Jun 6 by nice_to_michu
Kind of ironic that Skippy posts a thread about how Muhammad Ali was just a violent thug, but then goes on to speak to everyone on here with all this aggressiveness.
A lot of anger building in that guy, he needs to get a hobby, or a girlfriend/boyfriend, something to take his mind off of how scary the outside world is.
People are genuinely thick!.. I can't describe how thick you all are.. enjoy your headaches and your visit to the hospital.. they're going to check if you're both stable.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:04 - Jun 7 by Batterseajack
I wish our government would be able to release figures on how much money goes to EU migrants in the form of benefits to put this whole argument to bed. Its such a red herring (I can't back this up so its purely my opinion), and to think the country might vote ourselves out of our single biggest market off the back such a small figure apparently being frittered away on a small handful who might be exploiting the system. I've seen the odd Romanian immigrants sleeping homeless around train stations and the parks, so its clearly not that easy to rip off the benefit system.
I just read the post and made an observation. I'm not saying he is wrong, I don't have the figures and I am not going to look. I agree it would be nice to have figure is they are out there. I remain hugely skeptical that a nation with a one trillion dollar GDP receives a noticeable economic benefit from 800,000 Poles sending money back from the UK. Political pressure there may be, but that is a different matter.
Although Trump thinks that the Mexicans send $28 billion back to Mexico a year, but there are 11.7 million of them in the USA. So if we take Trumps figure we could estimate that Polish immigrants send about $2 billion dollars a year back to Poland, 0.2% of their GDP. Perhaps that is enough to influence them, who knows. I am a long way from convinced.
Upthecity!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:43 - Jun 7 with 1872 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:24 - Jun 7 by yescomeon
I just read the post and made an observation. I'm not saying he is wrong, I don't have the figures and I am not going to look. I agree it would be nice to have figure is they are out there. I remain hugely skeptical that a nation with a one trillion dollar GDP receives a noticeable economic benefit from 800,000 Poles sending money back from the UK. Political pressure there may be, but that is a different matter.
Although Trump thinks that the Mexicans send $28 billion back to Mexico a year, but there are 11.7 million of them in the USA. So if we take Trumps figure we could estimate that Polish immigrants send about $2 billion dollars a year back to Poland, 0.2% of their GDP. Perhaps that is enough to influence them, who knows. I am a long way from convinced.
Apologies Yescomeon, my comment was in general and not directed at you. As Skippy has just pointed out, i'm a bit thick and clicked on the wrong reply button. But i do agree with your initial observation that a significant portion of the Brexiteers are basing their opinions on jingoistic and nationalistic views rather than rational thought as their arguments rarely ever stack up.
This article is an interesting read, and i encourage the Brexiters to take 5 minutes out and absorb what it being said.
"British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.
Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.
"The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.
"The arguments look odd: they look short-term and based on irritation and anger. These seem to be powerful enough that they may lead to Brexit," he said, speaking to The Telegraph at the Amundi world investment forum in Paris. .............................................. "They won't regret it because regret is rare. They'll find a way to explain what happened and blame somebody. That is the general pattern when things go wrong and people are afraid," he said.
The refusal to face up to the implications of what is really at stake in the referendum comes as no surprise to a man imbued with deep sense of anthropological pessimism." ..............................................
His life's work is anchored in studies showing that people are irrational. They are prone to cognitive biases and "systematic errors in thinking", made worse by chronic over-confidence in their own judgment - and the less intelligent they are, the more militantly certain they tend to be.
People do not always act in their own economic self-interest. Nor do they strive to maximize "utility' and minimize risk, contrary to the assumptions of efficient markets theory and the core premises of the economics profession. "People are myopic. Our brain circuits respond to immediate consequences," he said.
"We feel too much confidence in our beliefs but the results of psychological research are unequivocal: confidence has very little to do with the information on which it is based," he said.
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 16:50]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:01 - Jun 7 with 1863 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:42 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
Any floating voters that remain, I would recommend catching the Andrew Neil Interviews on BBC iplayer.
I've got the 1st on now and he's making minced meat out of Hilary Benn (and I'm sure he'll make minced meat out of all the poor sods on both sides of the campaign). He is very good and comprehensive. Watch and make your own minds up. Don't vote either way because of peer pressure or because of the personalities involved. Inform yourselves.
Benn mentioned immigration is fantastic for the economy.. the economy of the Labour MPs bank accounts.. what a prune.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:01 - Jun 7 by skippyjack
Benn mentioned immigration is fantastic for the economy.. the economy of the Labour MPs bank accounts.. what a prune.
On a macro level it is. It lowers inflation, helps businesses expand and increases the skill base.
The problem is as I've been saying for years when it wasn't fashionable it reduces wages at the bottom end, reduces housing stock and puts pressure on public services.
In a nutshell it benefits probably 80-90% of us but damages those at the bottom end and who are the biggest cheerleaders for more immigration? Labour, go figure.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:14 - Jun 7 with 1848 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:06 - Jun 7 by donkeylabour
On a macro level it is. It lowers inflation, helps businesses expand and increases the skill base.
The problem is as I've been saying for years when it wasn't fashionable it reduces wages at the bottom end, reduces housing stock and puts pressure on public services.
In a nutshell it benefits probably 80-90% of us but damages those at the bottom end and who are the biggest cheerleaders for more immigration? Labour, go figure.
I have also championed that view.. and have explained it a few times.. the immigration influx benefits the rich.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
He also states immigrants pay tax which contributes to public services.. it also increases demand and more social housing.. which by all accounts we can't f*cking afford.. European immigrants are mainly in menial jobs.. the tax that they contribute is pretty much irrelevant when public and social housing is on the rise..
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:14 - Jun 7 by skippyjack
I have also championed that view.. and have explained it a few times.. the immigration influx benefits the rich.
Too true it benefits the rich, bang on!........ I worked alongside a dry-lining gang on the Bovis Lend Lease Marks And Spencer project in Fforestfach. The guy whom owned the dry-lining firm was a rather unpleasant pig of a man that epitomised the term 'gang-master'. The guy was extremely wealthy. He owned his own private yacht and traveled the length and breath of the U.K by means of aviation (as opposed to motorways) to inspect the progression of his latest contract.
He favoured the employment of Romanians and had them working (no overtime rate) 18 hour shifts. My opinion of most of these politicians (Tory especially?) is they love this type of thing because it drives wages down, denies decent working conditions to many and (Tory mentality) keeps the U.K workforce "in its place".
So to sum up........ IMO many politicians want mass immigration and that's why they have never had any attention of controlling it!
Argus!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:52 - Jun 7 with 1805 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:51 - Jun 7 by Wingstandwood
Too true it benefits the rich, bang on!........ I worked alongside a dry-lining gang on the Bovis Lend Lease Marks And Spencer project in Fforestfach. The guy whom owned the dry-lining firm was a rather unpleasant pig of a man that epitomised the term 'gang-master'. The guy was extremely wealthy. He owned his own private yacht and traveled the length and breath of the U.K by means of aviation (as opposed to motorways) to inspect the progression of his latest contract.
He favoured the employment of Romanians and had them working (no overtime rate) 18 hour shifts. My opinion of most of these politicians (Tory especially?) is they love this type of thing because it drives wages down, denies decent working conditions to many and (Tory mentality) keeps the U.K workforce "in its place".
So to sum up........ IMO many politicians want mass immigration and that's why they have never had any attention of controlling it!
I'm interested why do you highlight tory, when the tories are fundamentally for lowering immigration and labour are for a free for all? Just interests me that you say that.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:59 - Jun 7 with 1788 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:43 - Jun 7 by Batterseajack
Apologies Yescomeon, my comment was in general and not directed at you. As Skippy has just pointed out, i'm a bit thick and clicked on the wrong reply button. But i do agree with your initial observation that a significant portion of the Brexiteers are basing their opinions on jingoistic and nationalistic views rather than rational thought as their arguments rarely ever stack up.
This article is an interesting read, and i encourage the Brexiters to take 5 minutes out and absorb what it being said.
"British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.
Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.
"The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.
"The arguments look odd: they look short-term and based on irritation and anger. These seem to be powerful enough that they may lead to Brexit," he said, speaking to The Telegraph at the Amundi world investment forum in Paris. .............................................. "They won't regret it because regret is rare. They'll find a way to explain what happened and blame somebody. That is the general pattern when things go wrong and people are afraid," he said.
The refusal to face up to the implications of what is really at stake in the referendum comes as no surprise to a man imbued with deep sense of anthropological pessimism." ..............................................
His life's work is anchored in studies showing that people are irrational. They are prone to cognitive biases and "systematic errors in thinking", made worse by chronic over-confidence in their own judgment - and the less intelligent they are, the more militantly certain they tend to be.
People do not always act in their own economic self-interest. Nor do they strive to maximize "utility' and minimize risk, contrary to the assumptions of efficient markets theory and the core premises of the economics profession. "People are myopic. Our brain circuits respond to immediate consequences," he said.
"We feel too much confidence in our beliefs but the results of psychological research are unequivocal: confidence has very little to do with the information on which it is based," he said.
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 16:50]
No worries mate my reply was also general, weren't having a go or anything. That's the problem with the internet. Words without tone with which they are spoken can come across the wrong way.
I actual read that article this morning. This one too is saying the same thing, with a less serious headline;
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:00 - Jun 7 by donkeylabour
Well I don't see you as that judging from your posts. I'd suggest benefit class.
Now you stereotype.. upper class never display stereotypical views.. suggest what you want.. it's a choice at the end of the day.. if end of the day is in your illustrious dictionary of acceptance.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:06 - Jun 7 by donkeylabour
On a macro level it is. It lowers inflation, helps businesses expand and increases the skill base.
The problem is as I've been saying for years when it wasn't fashionable it reduces wages at the bottom end, reduces housing stock and puts pressure on public services.
In a nutshell it benefits probably 80-90% of us but damages those at the bottom end and who are the biggest cheerleaders for more immigration? Labour, go figure.
Very true. Turkeys and Christmas.
Also interesting in the 80s Labour taught us Thatcher was evil because she didn't care about communities as long as we had more money in our pockets.
Then in the 00s Labour justified their immigration policy in exactly the same way.
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:11 - Jun 7 with 1761 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:43 - Jun 7 by Batterseajack
Apologies Yescomeon, my comment was in general and not directed at you. As Skippy has just pointed out, i'm a bit thick and clicked on the wrong reply button. But i do agree with your initial observation that a significant portion of the Brexiteers are basing their opinions on jingoistic and nationalistic views rather than rational thought as their arguments rarely ever stack up.
This article is an interesting read, and i encourage the Brexiters to take 5 minutes out and absorb what it being said.
"British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.
Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.
"The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.
"The arguments look odd: they look short-term and based on irritation and anger. These seem to be powerful enough that they may lead to Brexit," he said, speaking to The Telegraph at the Amundi world investment forum in Paris. .............................................. "They won't regret it because regret is rare. They'll find a way to explain what happened and blame somebody. That is the general pattern when things go wrong and people are afraid," he said.
The refusal to face up to the implications of what is really at stake in the referendum comes as no surprise to a man imbued with deep sense of anthropological pessimism." ..............................................
His life's work is anchored in studies showing that people are irrational. They are prone to cognitive biases and "systematic errors in thinking", made worse by chronic over-confidence in their own judgment - and the less intelligent they are, the more militantly certain they tend to be.
People do not always act in their own economic self-interest. Nor do they strive to maximize "utility' and minimize risk, contrary to the assumptions of efficient markets theory and the core premises of the economics profession. "People are myopic. Our brain circuits respond to immediate consequences," he said.
"We feel too much confidence in our beliefs but the results of psychological research are unequivocal: confidence has very little to do with the information on which it is based," he said.
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 16:50]
People are myopic. Our brain circuits respond to immediate consequences,"
This is not a legitimate fact.. but his militant views dictate his thoughts..
Contradictory Hypocrite.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:54 - Jun 7 by donkeylabour
I'm interested why do you highlight tory, when the tories are fundamentally for lowering immigration and labour are for a free for all? Just interests me that you say that.
Actually I commented/highlighted Tory because they are the ones currently in charge of uncontrollable immigration. Yes! Labour (during their tenure) were up to their necks in it also. Labour absolutely loves immigration because apparently immigrants are vastly more likely to vote Labour.
But of late? The working class do rather seem to be getting pissed of with 'mainstream' political parties! So Labour could itself lose an incredible amount of indigenous core support/votes. So was it all worth it for em?
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 18:18]
Argus!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:19 - Jun 7 with 1739 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:12 - Jun 7 by Wingstandwood
Actually I commented/highlighted Tory because they are the ones currently in charge of uncontrollable immigration. Yes! Labour (during their tenure) were up to their necks in it also. Labour absolutely loves immigration because apparently immigrants are vastly more likely to vote Labour.
But of late? The working class do rather seem to be getting pissed of with 'mainstream' political parties! So Labour could itself lose an incredible amount of indigenous core support/votes. So was it all worth it for em?
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 18:18]
It might just be me, but imo from history where the working class get pissed off things turn more towards the right than the left; regardless of which way people turn I'd also say it tends to be to the more extreme edges.
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